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Author Topic:   Byzantine Catholic Church Inc.?
Elias
unregistered
posted 06-21-2000 07:32 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Who are these people? Isn't the words "Byzantine Catholic" a legal title? I remember hearing of fights over the use of "Greek Catholic" at one time.

http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch02254

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John Stroud
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posted 06-21-2000 09:19 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looks like they are an independent Catholic Church, in the lineage of the Old Catholic Church, which in this case would make their sacraments invalid in the eyes of Rome.

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Rusnak
unregistered
posted 06-21-2000 03:34 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Glory to Jesus Christ.

John Stroud is partly right — this group isn’t an Eastern Catholic church but rather a so-called ‘Old Catholic’ church, one of perhaps hundreds of thousands of tiny, idiosyncratic fringe groups, usually made up of former Catholics or former Anglicans who like to dress as clergy and give themselves big fancy titles like ‘Metropolitan Archbishop of the Western Hemisphere’. Usually these groups are ‘paper churches’ with more clergy than congregations. Lately more of these groups have been calling themselves ‘Orthodox’ (‘they’re not under the Pope and neither are we, therefore we are Orthodox too’) but they are not really part of the Orthodox Churches.

Such groups also are called ‘vagante’ groups, named after medieval ‘wandering’ bishops deprived of office (disciplined) who went around ordaining men and doing other bishoply things uncanonically.

Some of these groups appear traditionalist, with the Tridentine Mass, etc. (but often are quite liberal underneath these trappings); many are fronts for gays or New Agers who like to play church.

Catholicism MIGHT consider the orders of SOME of these dubious clergy to be valid, and the Orthodox consider them outside the Church and so do not recognize them as having grace. The best advice for the good of one’s soul is to *stay away* from these silly shenanigans.

http://oldworldrus.com

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 06-21-2000).]

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A Nobody
unregistered
posted 06-21-2000 05:19 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This "Church" has caused confusion in the past because it was originally headquartered in Van Nuys, the suburb of LA where St. Mary's Cathedral is located. The last I heard, it's "cathedral" was a garage and it's grand high poobah metropolitan catholicos patriarchal archbishop razzamataz or whatever was a mailman (shades of Cliff Claven). Whether or not this still remains, I do not know.

Rusnak is absolutely correct: there are scores of these "churches" out there, and odds are all the "clergy" listed by them is their entire membership. They remind me of being a child and dressing up in bedsheets and towels and "playing Mass" on an old table, using the stem and cup from an unused perculator for a "chalice" and saltine crackers for the "bread".

They all now seem to be into elaborate websites and one can easily find a myriad of them simply by typing "Old Catholic" in Search. They're quite fun to explore and, like Rusnak says, range from one weird thing to another, having everything from "tridentine masses" and hybrid "western rite Orthodox liturgies", mixed with women "priests" and funky new-age beliefs. For some reason, they do seem to attract an inordinate number of homosexuals (the clue is, but not always, such lines as "open to all people"; "inclusive" or "tolerant" of "all lifestyles", etc.).

A Nobody

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Rusnak
unregistered
posted 06-21-2000 07:00 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear ‘Nobody’,

ROTFL! ‘Patriarch’ Cliff presiding over a garage!

You’re right: for someone who knows what’s what, the Web is a very fun way to learn about these fake churches from a safe distance. A lot of them do have elaborate websites.

Another giveaway of a ‘vagante’ group is if its website refers to the group’s ‘lines’ of apostolic/episcopal succession, often including long lists of who consecrated whom (these characters often are ordained and consecrated multiple times so they can claim better ‘lines’ of succession), down to the present poobah, His All-Beatitude Mar Fatuus I, OSB (a.k.a. postman Cliff Clavin). Real Catholic and Orthodox groups don’t do this.

http://oldworldrus.com

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LazarusDos
unregistered
posted 06-21-2000 08:28 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is one group,that in an effort to be truly all-inclusive, has self-consecrated itself, the Anglican Catholic Byzantine Orthodox Church of America. Next week they throw in the kitchen sink? And their multiple lines of succession? "Well, we have this line of succession. But,if you prefer, we also have this one...and this one...etc." Finally: How many Catholic and Orthodox bishops have Cathedrals that
are located in an apartment building?

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Dozier
unregistered
posted 06-22-2000 08:43 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have you ever heard of the "Mar Thoma Church Outside of India"? (See below...)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/5478/

The chorbishop is Charlie Brown. (I'm not kidding!)

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 06-22-2000).]

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Elias
unregistered
posted 06-22-2000 12:16 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is a group of nuts in Montana who consider their one cleric the Pope! They even had white smoke come out of their potbelly stove in some log cabin.

Elias

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LazarusDos
unregistered
posted 06-22-2000 12:19 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You must have been "Snoopy-ing" around when you found that one. St.Thomas would not be pleased.

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A Nobody
unregistered
posted 06-22-2000 03:09 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That Montana group is a hoot! I think their website is: www.truecatholic.org

Their "pope" was "crowned" in a hotel meeting room. Imagine: from St. Peter's to Ho-Jo's! They keep their location secret, have no parishes (save wherever the "pope" is) and have even set up their own Vatican-style bureaucracy. I wonder if they have an Eastern Churches Congregation?

We could all go on pilgrimage to see them....if we knew where they were.

A Nobody

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Dozier
unregistered
posted 06-22-2000 07:26 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wonder if they take as long to approve liturgical texts...hmmm...

Gordo, sfo

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michael
unregistered
posted 06-23-2000 12:42 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, the Society of Saint Pius X has set up what they term Transalpine Redemptorists, which is set up to convert Orthodox to the Catholic faith [pre-1958]. The SSPX is, of course excommunicated from the Catholic Church for disobeying His Holiness Pope John Paul II in ordaining four bishops in the late 1980s. The SSPX says that the Balamund Document is heretical and that the true Eastern Catholics have been betrayed.

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