posted 05-31-2001 12:01 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Medved:

The Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church is ALSO MY HOME! It has been for over 1,000 years.

This is what upsets me the most with people who come to our Byzantine church from other churches. Why do we have to give up our tradtions and language simply because it makes you feel "un-comfortable"?? I don't feel uncomfortable with it. I LOVE THE LANGUAGE and wish we used more of it in our Liturgy.

I guess I simply don't understand why someone would leave a church to join another church when they feel uncomfortable with the liturgical language because it's not English?

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Mark,

I didn't realize that you were so old. Actually, you're the first person I've met on the Internet who was alive prior to the schism of 1054.

For the record, I am not telling you to get rid of anything. On the contrary, I am voicing my support for the policy established by our U.S. bishops to have liturgies primarily in English. This has been the policy for at least thirty years, and I think that it is a mighty fine one.

Likewise, I did not "join another church when they feel uncomfortable with the liturgical language because it's not English." Actually, the Church that I joined - the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolitan Church - has English as its primary liturgical language. We sprinkle some nice Slavonic in here and there, and it is beautiful. But English IS the liturgical language of our Church, and it has been for at least three decades now. That's longer than I've been alive. I've been attending Divine Liturgies since I was a little tiny kid, and it has been in English as long as I remember it.

So, I am not advocating throwing anything out. On the contrary, I am (in this rare instance) supporting the status quo!

Also, in case you misunderstand me, I personally have nothing against Church Slavonic. I actually have an understanding of the language, and can sing it better than most ethnic Rusyns my age. My concern has to do with evangelization and growth as a Church. I see a lot of people leaving, and not nearly enough new people coming in. I am very concerned that unless this trend reverses itself, we will not have a Church in the country thirty years from now. Hence, I see the dire need for evangelization. And, at least in the U.S., liturgies entirely in Church Slavonic are going to keep converts out.

Now, please put aside your hard feelings. Can we be friends?

posted 05-31-2001 12:09 PM               

I have a joke for you and anyone else who wants to read this. Ready?

A Byzantine Catholic priest with a very heavy Slavic accent and grave problems with his English, wanted to establish English-only services in his Church.

The people had some difficulty understanding him however.

At the sermon, the priest looked at his congregation and said, " After Mess, vee veel haff, er, 'marijuana' ("myrovannya" or anointing).

I guess he had some "leenqueech problems."

Sank you,

posted 05-31-2001 12:20 PM            

I thought that was a pretty funny joke! Mostly because I've had similar experiences in Latin parishes when visiting priests from foreign countries have celebrated Mass "in the vernacular." The only problem was their accents made comprehension rather difficult!

posted 05-31-2001 12:33 PM               

Thank you!

When the Ukrainian Catholic Bishops first met His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, they tried to speak in their broken Polish with him.

The Pope reportedly got a little annoyed at what they were doing to his beloved language and then said abruptly, "My brothers, let's stop destroying the Polish language and speak in Ukrainian!"

God bless,

posted 05-31-2001 01:09 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Thur:
It was fine for my parents who spoke hushkie-papushkie (our term for that jibberish) in their homes, but not for us. The local natives spoke English, we were sent to English-speaking schools, our ECF program was all in English, but we worshipped in hushkie-papushkie jibberish.

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"Jibberish" is as jibberish does, Joe. It may have been hushie-papushkie (isn't that some kind of food you sell at your parish food festival once a year when you parade your "nash"-iness in public for profit?) to you, but to them it was their way of life. If you were too dense to learn to decipher it, that's your problem, not theirs.

quote:

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I know where the hushkie-papushkie generation went ... they be in graveyards along with their great abilities to hand down (Tradition) the Faith.
Eternal Memory!

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posted 05-31-2001 01:14 PM            

I remember meeting two young ladies from Italy who were visiting a local parish. I thought I'd surprise them by trying to speak to them in Italian.

When I did so, they were a little shocked. It turned out they were from a village outside of Napoli (in the south), and as the dialect that I learned was Friulian (northern, with alot of Slovenian and German sounds and pronunciation), they had no idea what I was talking about! After a good laugh at my expense, we switched back to English.

Comu shtai apparently doesn't make much sense to all Italians. Maybe Anthony can comment? (Hehe, just kidding).

posted 05-31-2001 01:17 PM               

Good point(s)!

When my grandparents emigrated to Canada, they inspired me to study up on my heritage.

The Church has always lived with our people, their aspirations, culture and has defended them.

To learn the language etc. is a great commitment that not everyone is up to.

Up here in Canada, people are still strong in their East Slavic identity.

Our ancestors didn't preach Christianity, they lived it.

Let us all salute them for what they have handed down to us.

Let's see if we can do any better than they, shall we?

But that will be decided by those who will come after us.

Hopefully, they won't point to our graves and mimick us!

posted 05-31-2001 01:51 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by anastasios:
I personally enjoy liturgies in OCS and Greek and even liturgical Arabic... but NOT on Sunday. People visit on Sunday. Many younger folks will be there. They need to hear it in English, or they won't be back.

Weekday liturgies in Slavonic? Sat. morning? Doing a hymn that repeats like the Cherubic hymn first in Eng. then Slavonic? Sure! Sounds great! but all in Slavonic/Greek/whatever? Sorry, it just won't work.

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Anastasios,
Sounds all well and good, but who is around now during the week? Two or three people? So as long as we keep it there, we can feel good about ourselves that "yes, we still sing in Slavonic here."

Now let's jump ahead 10 years. It's probably not the same two or three people during the week, it's somebody else who was 40-50 years old in 2001 and was nurtured in Byzantine Christian worship mainly on Sundays. Will they know any Slavonic to be other than a spectator when it's up to them during the week to do the singing? Unless they are actually more like 80 or 90 years old, probably not.

Let's not use Slavonic on Sundays so as not to alienate any visitors or anyone who isn't already familiar with it. But let's use it on special occasions (who will know how to do this? The priest? and perhaps the cantor?) and ensure that almost NOBODY has any clue. Language ability (liturgical or vernacular, active or passive) is extremely fleeting. It dies without regular use.

Meanwhile, our Byzantine Ruthenian people of all backgrounds are being taught liturgical Greek. The new hieraticon prescribes Eis polla eti, Despota, Hagios ho Theos, and God knows what else, plus our cantors are being instructed to chant Christos anesti, and even though we have probably fewer folks of Greek background in our parishes than Italians or French, it is presented as de rigeur as our traditional Mnohaja lita, Vladyko and Svjatyj Boz'e are verboten.

I'm going to propose something radical, but for consistency with what we preach and believe, it's the only way we can maintain our integrity. Since Church Slavonic is purposely not taught to our children (most priests just tell the kids it's "a foreign language") and they rarely hear it anyhow, let us henceforth no longer use any Church Slavonic, ever. Let us shake the dust from our sandals and never look back.

posted 05-31-2001 02:04 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Thur:
Check the info-rack in your church narthex and see what language the pamphlets and brochures and bulletin are written in. If we try to invite people to our Church using their language and then worship in foreign tongue, then we are being inconsistent. Who are we fooling? Unless evangelization is NOT what you want, then I can understand. Our language of worship should be proportional to the language of evangelization.

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What is surprising to many people is that we Ruthenian BCs actually have a few parishes in the USA where English (or Spanish) is not the primary language. One in particular, on the eastern seaboard, was probably 90% immigrants from Slovakia, most of whom can no more sing the Liturgy in English than most of you can in Slavonic. The normal way of life in this parish was already compromised because it was unable to provide catechetical material to the children in their native language (although the people are from Slovakia, they are not Slovaks though they do understand and can speak Slovak), and the current pastoral administration was unable to give sermons in their language.

When this church was recently closed by the bishop's decree, the parishioners did not (as expected) attend the English-speaking mother parish -- they have moved instead to the local Carpathian Orthodox church, a Ukrainian BC church, and even a Slovak Roman Catholic church.

This is a situation we ourselves have created, that even when this "foreign element" comes to us -- and they do! -- we have rendered ourselves unable to respond to them -- liturgically, pastorally, catechetically -- except in English. And so they move on.

Is it our loss, or theirs?

posted 05-31-2001 02:21 PM               

Friulanian beer is truly magnificent, though!

God bless,

Alex

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Nicholas:
Hehe, I'll have to remember that joke, Alex!

I remember meeting two young ladies from Italy who were visiting a local parish. I thought I'd surprise them by trying to speak to them in Italian.

When I did so, they were a little shocked. It turned out they were from a village outside of Napoli (in the south), and as the dialect that I learned was Friulian (northern, with alot of Slovenian and German sounds and pronunciation), they had no idea what I was talking about! After a good laugh at my expense, we switched back to English.

Comu shtai apparently doesn't make much sense to all Italians. Maybe Anthony can comment? (Hehe, just kidding).

In Christ,
Mike (poor sinner)

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posted 05-31-2001 02:24 PM               

Remarkable posts all around - thank you.

It does show we need sociologists of religion (just a plug for people like me!).

Z Bohom,

posted 05-31-2001 02:39 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear RichC,

Remarkable posts all around - thank you.

It does show we need sociologists of religion (just a plug for people like me!).

Z Bohom,

Alex

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Thank you Alex, ne ma za shto!!

If it were up to me, you'd have the job in an instant!

You've already shown yourself eminently qualified by navigating these forums without somebody anathematizing you...

posted 05-31-2001 02:55 PM               

So far, Friend in Christ, so far!

Alex

quote:

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Originally posted by RichC:
Thank you Alex, ne ma za shto!!

If it were up to me, you'd have the job in an instant!

You've already shown yourself eminently qualified by navigating these forums without somebody anathematizing you...

RDC

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posted 05-31-2001 02:57 PM               

Is it just me or is this entire Forum being warmed over by love right now?

A wonderful way to greet Pentecost!

posted 05-31-2001 03:16 PM               

//… hushie-papushkie (isn't that some kind of food you sell at your parish food festival once a year when you parade your "nash"-iness in public for profit?) to you, but to them it was their way of life.//

Sorry, Rich, but I don’t parade my “nash”-iness in public for profit. I’ve seen too much ill-will towards those who come to our doors to “taste and see how good the Lord is” only to leave because the Nashi police didn’t make them feel welcome. If everyone speaks foreign tongue, then fine, speak it. But if the next generation doesn’t speak it, then this better be addressed. My late grandmother’s parish church was ready to close its doors until they began doing English. Somehow, that “way of life” was bottled up like the Dead Sea.

//If you were too dense to learn to decipher it, that's your problem, not theirs.//

Quite frankly, your nash-hospitality is showing. I was too busy learning English with my friends from China and India.

//Your sarcastic disdain for your ancestors is unbecoming of an orthodox Christian and one who claims to be conscious of his Carpathian whatever background.//

The fact that all our ancestors came to this country and left their homes behind makes a statement in itself. I love my ancestors and I am proud of my Rusyn background. But if I must boast, it will be for Christ and not some language that our parishioners cannot speak. Did you know that Christ didn’t even speak nash? What I am not proud of is the stubbornness of those who think the Church’s only mission is to preserve a dead language. When the Jews chucked the Greek Septuagint, they mandated nash-Hebrew. Unfortunately, they realized that their people did not understand it. No comprehende, sir. Soon, however, the Jews made several Greek translations of their own! Why to you think Our People’s (to use a nash phrase) Apostles missionized the Slavs? Were they making them good Latin-speaking Christians “in name only” like the missionaries from the other side of the hill?

Alex,

Love? Like when the Ukrainian lady yelled at her grandson with a raised fist after liturgy and then shook him because he couldn't comprehend why he had to learn and love the Ukrainian language? BTW, that parish almost closed due to a lack of young folk to pass on their Faith traditions.

Joe

posted 05-31-2001 03:30 PM               

Actually, I was speaking about this Forum.

You don't have tell me about fist-shaking.

When my cousin died of cancer at the age of 40, he had been attending an RC Church with his wife.

He told me the week he died that he didn't want a Byzantine Catholic priest "swinging a censor" above him etc.

I told him to tell his mother, not me. He didn't get a chance to or else was afraid to.

His widow arranged for the funeral at the RC Church and my aunt then, quite crassly and coldly, ordered another funeral at the Byzantine Catholic Church afterwards.

The lines were drawn in the sand and as the RC priest was coming down the aisle, one of our babushkas took a swing at him.

Etc. etc. etc.

I don't disagree with your evangelical vision - God forbid!

Nor am I saying that this way is good or that way is bad.

What I have written here are just my observations. I don't have the answers.

It seems to me that a number of ethnic parishes see "Byzantine Rite" and "Ukrainian" as one and the same thing.

They see "English" as part of "Roman Catholic" and so wouldn't be upset if those wanting English-only Masses go over to the RC Church.

That is another observation of mine - I agree it does not bode well for the future of our Church.

But also, there are areas of our Church where the melting pot isn't as effective as elsewhere.

Our Ukrainian-language parishes aren't dying out, they are growing. The Calendar issue is more pertinent than the language issue "up here."

I am not saying your position is wrong. I am saying that anything we can say about this matter is culturally specific and culturally determined within a pastoral context.

Priests and Bishops can do only so much. In the end, they will do what their parishioners want them to do.

The most active parishioners that we have now are middle-aged to old, very Ukrainian and reach for their pocket-book to support their Church at every turn and do so unsparingly.

Again, another observation . . .

posted 05-31-2001 03:41 PM               

And what happens when the money runs out? Anyone to fill his shoes? If people want to speak their own language, I am not against it. But what are we doing to keep it going after this generation passes?

posted 05-31-2001 03:52 PM               

Would that we would have someone of your Apostolic vision up here!

Some of our clergy must be happy that they have so many funerals to serve . . .

Unfortunately, the baptisms at the other end are only half as many or less.

St Demetrius Ukrainian Catholic Church and St Elias in Brampton of which Protodeacon Kennedy is a part are the parishes of the future.

Stay with your charism, Joe, God will use you for the build up of our Church and its future continuation on this continent.

posted 05-31-2001 06:19 PM            

When our ancestors were arriving in substantial numbers, they gathered themselves in ethnic enclaves (='ghettos' for the contemporary cool folks) and established their churches, grocery stores, clubs. But the first generation born here pressed for Americanization and English. Although they respected their churches, they still lived American lives. (My mother pressed her mother to buy Campbell's soup instead of making soup at home.)

The Ukrainians (and the Greeks) here still benefit from infusions of folks from the old country. As with the Slovak speaking parish that is now closed. Thus, these churches can maintain their 'ethnicity' in order to serve the folks who come to worship.

But, as soon as they "make it" in America, and get some money, they buy the house in suburbia; and in the past (today?) if they made beaucoup bucks, they became Episcoplian or whatever was the 'prestige' church.

The Ruthenian bishops made a calculated choice to respond to the needs of the 1st and 2nd and .X... generations by doing everything in the contemporary vernacular rather than in the 'old country' vernacular.

Mistake? I'm not sure, although I think not. If you keep things in a (to us Americans) 'foreign language', you are only going to be able to serve those who claim this heritage. And the incessant proclivity of folks to make babies with those who are "not their own kind" dilutes the pool of those who claim the identity to any significant way. Even the Greeks, among the most insular folks on the planet, have noted the hybrid families and have established an office of Greek Language Education within the Archdiocese, and are reinforcing their funding of parish Greek schools. (Unfortunately, they are only for the kiddies.)

If we place our eggs in the ethnic/cultural basket, we're going to lose and become nothing more than the ecclesiastical equivalent of the Amish 'show-farm', open weekends from 8 to 5. Only, we'll be open Sundays from 8 to noon.

The major question is: how do we live out our Byzantine heritages in this country, while keeping the ethnic flavors inherent in the parishes, and still be able to preach the Gospel to those who need to hear it? Let's face it, we're in this 'business' to preach the Gospel and establish communities of believers. How much Slavonic, Greek, Ukrainian, Arabic, Syriac, etc. should we use and in what circumstances? I believe it's impossible to set a norm that applies at all times and in all places. I think we need a general sense of when to do certain things and when to do others. (All Slavonic liturgy on Cyril and Methodius, and perhaps on Boris and Gleb? A little Greek on Holy Images and Pascha?) I think it's a pastoral decision to be made by the parish priest in consultation with the parishoners, i.e., will they come?

As for the preservation of the OCS language: there are very few even now who can handle liturgical services completely in that language. Even with the aid of the Sokol books. But we do have audiotapes; and these can be used to help the cantors keep the stuff going over time. (And if not, ship a few of them over for a summer in Veliki Holupki; they'll come back singing wildly and reeking of garlic.)

[OK. Instant poll: How many among this posting crowd have fewer than 10 liturgical tapes that they listen to either at home or in the car? I'll wager the majority of posters has AT LEAST a dozen. And I'll bet y'all SING with them, too!}

Blessings!

posted 05-31-2001 09:51 PM            

Well, from a Latin Rite perspective, I have only five "liturgical" CD's. Three Gregorian chant CD's (which I DO chant along with on occasion), Mozart's Requiem, and Rachmaninov's Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I don't chant (or sing) along with the last two, and don't know if I'd really consider them liturgical in a strict sense.

posted 06-01-2001 12:01 AM            

OK, Byzantines: come on in!!

Blessings!

posted 06-01-2001 06:55 AM               

[OK. Instant poll: How many among this posting crowd have fewer than 10 liturgical tapes that they listen to either at home or in the car? I'll wager the majority of posters has AT LEAST a dozen. And I'll bet y'all SING with them, too!}

I lost count at 27 CD's....

I did purchase a brand new CD of Divine Liturgy in OCS from the Greek Catholic church in Poland. It comes in a funky red CD case and has text also. A very nice CD over all....

posted 06-01-2001 09:12 AM            

This isn't counting all the one's I've downloaded though, which I'm sure would put me at around a dozen.

I especially like the Coptic! Which reminds of a cool site I found:
www.tasbeha.org/

posted 06-01-2001 10:40 AM               

How can I go about learning Old-Slavonic/Church-Slavonic?