Site Links
ByzCath.org Home
Latest News
Liturgical Calendar
Lectionary
Newest Members
anniehput, Clint_Thomas, Scotty, CrossDaily7, James the Least, Tamiian, Adam1984, Neil Sator, Fr Brendan, BabaBonnie, Pipo, church248, Mercian, Chris K, Rosemary
3780 Registered Users
Who's Online
18 registered (sielos ilgesys, Pani Rose, Ot'ets Nastoiatel', PeterPeter, Job, Terry Bohannon, Dr. Henry P., Nicole_248, Deacon El, Fr. Jon, StuartK, cdhale, Epiphanius, Penthaetria, Polish American, 3 invisible), 55 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Private Forums
The Byzantine Forum also hosts these private forums: The Deacon's Door (for deacons and deacon candidates and their wives), the Orthodox Christian Studies Forum (for currently enrolled students only of the distance education programs offered by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Clergy Forum (for clergy, religious, and clergy wives of that Church). Contact an administrator for access at forum@byzcath.org.
Latest Photo
St. Mary's Byzantine Catholic, Nesquehoning, PA
Forum Stats
3780 Members
22 Forums
26499 Topics
339083 Posts

Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
Topic Options
Liturgical.jpg
Liturgical Geneology of the Holy Churches of God
Image Details
Poster Pani Rose Online   content
Posted 01/28/10 03:27 AM
Description
This is the chart we use at the food festival at St. George to help people visually it's development and the Churches.
Dimensions 917x672
Size 102.04 KB
UBBCode
Thumbnail
Medium
Full

Comments
#342325 - 01/28/10 08:35 AM Re: Liturgical Geneology of the Holy Churches of God [Re: Pani Rose]
StuartK Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 2996
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Nice. However, the Edessene Church is not extinct, it is known as the Church of the East. I also think the links between the Cappodocian liturgy and the Celtic and Gallic rites is highly speculative. There was eastern influence, for sure, but to point to Cappodocia specifically seems peculiar. There was, in fact, a liturgy of Antioch which was separate and distinct from the Cappodocian (both contributed to the Constantinopolitan rite), and given trading patterns of the second and third centuries, it seems more likely that Greeks and Syrians came directly from Antioch to Lyons, and thence to Britain, than from remote Cappodocia. Egypt would also have direct contact with Lyons, providing another route for Eastern liturgical influences.

The Glagolitic rite, for what it's worth, should also show a lateral connection to Constantinople and the Slav-Byzantine rite.

Top
#342333 - 01/28/10 09:25 AM Re: Liturgical Geneology of the Holy Churches of God [Re: StuartK]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 6056
Loc: Massachusetts
Eddessa is not identified as a Church, but as a city - and in that construct it is indeed extinct. And the liturgy of the Assyrians is represented on the chart by the Chaldean entry.

The Glagolitic is not a Rite. It's purely the alphabet that allowed for the Latin Rite Mass to be served in a language other than Latin during the tenure of the Indult.

Many years,

Neil

Top
#342337 - 01/28/10 09:53 AM Re: Liturgical Geneology of the Holy Churches of God [Re: Irish Melkite]
Pani Rose Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 9406
Loc: Irondale,AL
Neil, thanks for the additions to the chart. All the work you went to, to get it to upload also.

I think it can be a great tool for trying to explain to folks how things developed. Sometimes our brain and heart see better when they have something to hold and look at other than trying to just read.

Neil it does enlarge. It just took a few taps to get it to, but it did. I will get it again for you. biggrin

Top
#342354 - 01/28/10 12:19 PM Re: Liturgical Geneology of the Holy Churches of God [Re: Irish Melkite]
PeterPeter Online   content
Member

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 132
Loc: Poland
I would add that Sarum is not totally extinct, but still celebrated occassionally. I'm not sure about Glagolitic (Roman-Slavic, or whatever its proper name is). I heard that this rite is still being used somewhere in Croatia. Also there's Western Rite of Esztergom which is not included on this diagram.

Top
#342419 - 01/29/10 03:39 AM Re: Liturgical Geneology of the Holy Churches of God [Re: PeterPeter]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 6056
Loc: Massachusetts
Peter,

I'd agree with you regarding Sarum, although the common answer one would hear for many years would have suggested that it was extinct.

As regards the Glagolitic, the Western Mass is indeed still served according to the Indult in a few places in Croatia and, on occasion, in some personal parishes of the Latin Croats in the US (principally, those served by the Franciscan Croat Custody). If one intends to refer to those instances, a better way to style them would be as a Usage or by referencing the Indult - as I explained above, it's not a Rite.

Rose,

You're correct, it does indeed enlarge. Thanks for sharing it.

Overall, it certainly could ably serve the purpose for which St George's uses it. Most who would use it as a learning tool would not know enough to recognize its omissions.

The Slovaks, Hungarians, and Byelorussians are missing from the Byzantine. Some would suggest that the first two are derivitive of the Ruthenian and the latter of the Ukrainians, but the fact remains that they are Churches sui iuris and should be named.

The Serbs are referenced, but that entry would be more accurately labeled as 'Croat', given that Serb Greek-Catholics are few and far between, much outnumbered by their Croat neighbors.

Overall, the chart nicely shows the place of origin - from whence are titled the Rites (the Eastern ones at least). A problem is that while the opening tier of entries are Rites, those subsequent (at least as regards the East & Orient) are Churches that use that Rite. But, that isn't entirely clear - and is less so because the Syriacs aren't there. Yes, West Syriac shows as a second tier entry (point of origen), but there is not a separate, repetitive entry below that to define Syriac as as a Church.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

Top


Moderator:  Administrator, Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright ©1996-2010. All rights reserved.