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"Most Trads don't "hate" the new Mass, but the abuses which have occured in the new Mass."

Joe: sorry for the overt generalization of Latin Trads, but most "traditional" Latin Catholics usually go by a name without the traditional title.

"The "I hate the Novus Ordo" crowd is usually confined to groups like the SSPX, who consider the new Mass to be invalid."

Joe: Not really.

"To most Trads, the Latin Mass is the Mass they remember as children. It was the Mass of the Roman rite for 1500 years."

Joe: You mean the Latin Mass that my mother grew up with was the same Mass that was celebrated 1500 years ago? It never went through reforms or changes over those 1500 years?

"Its structure and spirituality is deeper then the new Mass. The Novus Ordo, when done correctly, is very beautiful and deep theologically."

Joe: Either the Novus Ordo is not as deep than the Latin Mass or it is "deep theologically." What is it? Isn't your issue primarily an issue about abuse(s) rather than the Mass in itself?

But this thread is verging to another topic other than Crocked III ...

Dear Steve:



Since Columcille has not responded to this particular statement of yours, may I just say that:

I think Columcille went, saw, returned, and stayed put!

AmdG

Dear Amado,

Thanks for the correction. I was under the impression that Columcille had become Byzantine Catholic and then a member of the Orthodox Church. I'm really happy to hear the news.

The parody is the issue and I should have limited my remarks to that. Apologies for the addendum.

I apologize for any misrepresentation of fact!

Thanks again, Amado.

Steve

Dear Steve:

You are welcome!

But, remember, I said I think.

I was one of those many among us who wished him well in his journey east. However, I have prayed at least once since then that Columcille be granted by the Holy Spirit a clear discernment.

His staying put is, therefore, just MY personal wish; he can always confirm or deny it.

AmdG

Thanks again, Amado.

Steve

Guys, guys . . .

Columcille did investigate how the grass grew on the Eastern side of the fence.

He has always remained a traditional Latin Catholic and his in depth study of the East has only confirmed him in his resolve to so remain.

He is one of the most devout, faithful and sincere Catholic Christians I have ever had the privilege of knowing, if only via the disembodied relationships of the internet.

So leave him alone . . .

Alex

Dear friends-

Allow me to put the matter to rest. It is true that I was on the road to conversion to Orthodoxy. I went to an Orthodox church for several months and build a good relationship with the priest there.

I have since decided to remain Roman Catholic in the Old Tradition(Tridentine).

As much as I love the beauty of the Eastern Church, I just could never feel truly comfortable. I am still very Western in alot of my theological leanings, although I have incorporated some things that I learned in the East into my personal spiritual journey.

I think I made the decision to become Eastern Christian without truly knowing what it meant to be an Eastern Christian. I fell in love with the external beauty, but lacked the spirit of Byzantium in my soul. I can enjoy true, traditional worship at a Tridentine Liturgy while feeling at home with the theology and spirituality being taught.

I feel I am alot better for my (3) year experience in the East. I rejoice in the diversity within the Body of Christ. I now see the Church in a much wider scope then I did (3) years ago.

I appreciate the prayers, thank you.

Columcille

P.S As fate would have it, my wife and I are moving to Pennsylvania in (2) months. There is a beautiful Byzantine church directly across the street from our front door. The nearest Tridentine Liturgy is 1/2 hour away. Perhaps I should come back East

Dear Alex-

Thank you for those kind words. My feelings toward you are mutual.

Columcille

Dear Columcille,

You mean you want me to leave you alone too?

As for your still being very Western, that's O.K.

A lot of us Byzantines are too!

God bless y'a, Big Guy, God bless y'a!

Alex

Dear Columcille,

Thank you for sharing your spiritual journey with us. The beauty of the East is a real treasure, to be sure. But, I am really happy that you have chosen to remain in the Latin Church and to work to build her up. As you point out, the Tridentine Liturgy has a beauty all its own and the theology behind it is indeed rich.

I hope that you will continue to work to root out abuses as you become aware of them. I continue my prayers for you and yours and ask prayers for me and mine!

Steve

Dear Ray,

Sorry that I didn't respond to your posting earlier. It's good to know that other Latin Catholics are here, too.

We've been members of parishes in a number of dioceses in various parts of the country. I'm glad to say that we've been blessed in the priests who have been our pastors and their assistants, with very few exceptions. They have conveyed what the Church teaches with great care and with love for us and for the Church.

Most younger priests seem to be formed so that they are clearly recognizable as priests, and good ones at that. I understand what you are saying, though. Evidentally there is some reason for concern about our seminaries. It's been reported that the Vatican and the Bishop's Conference are looking into the situation and making corrections.

Like most Latin Catholics, I believe that our bishops and the priests, and others assigned to assist them, teach what we should be taught. Based on John Paul II's track record and those of his predecessors, if the Bishops were doing otherwise, he would make it clear with care and with love. He sure is aware of what's happening!

If there seem to be problems with what I experience or hear, I express my opinion or ask questions as I feel it to be appropriate. Thankfully that has not been often.

For the most part, it seems to me that the Western Church is doing what she needs to do.
It's a blessing to have the opportunity to learn about the Eastern Churches and see that that's true there also.

Good to hear from you

Steve

Perhaps this fits with "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer also.

Hilde

As usual, Alex has offered a profound pearl of wisdom. I've been wrestling with this issue myself over the past couple months and have found that a deep inner voice is telling me that I am a Roman Catholic at heart and must remain so.

Like Columcille, I have been deeply enriched by the gifts of the Byzantine tradition that I have only begun to discover and will continue to cherish. My vision of the Church in her fullness has been tremendously enlarged since discovering this forum and I hope to keep learning.

May the Holy Spirit continue to weave into all our lives the unity and charity that is our heritage in Christ.

Khrystyna (still thawing out of the deep freeze that has hit the Cleveland area recently)

Dear Khrystyna,

You reminded me of two things: How much I cherish your friendship AND a few examples of the cultural issue you raise.

I've come across some traditionalist Westerners, Roman Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran (pastors) who wanted to leave their respective Churches for Orthodoxy.

However, at the same time, they didn't want to leave their spiritual Western culture in which they felt at home.

A number of these ended up in the Western Rites of the Antiochian Church or else finally "settled" for Byzantine Orthodoxy. One became Coptic Orthodox!

Some of the Anglicans and Lutherans became RC - but of the Tridentine Rite.

They all went through a lot of turmoil before "coming home" to their spiritual cultural roots in one way or another.

I'm just happy I'm - me!

Alex

Dear Alex,

You may make me weep yet by your kindness and graciousness! I have learned so much from you and the other posters on this forum. To say you are "happy being you" is but to show forth the glory of the God who has called and blessed you to be exactly who you are.

I will always remember, in thanksgiving, my Eastern brothers and sisters at Mass. I also pray that Columcille will continue to be nurtured in his life in the traditional Latin liturgy. At the moment, it seems the Lord has called me to remain at my novus ordo parish where, thankfully, the good Benedictine fathers who staff the parish have not forgotten what a genuinely sacramental Catholic life should look like.

This forum is one of the finest gatherings of Christians I have ever encountered.

Khrystyna