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Mark & John,

Thank you for offering to "chip in to call Fr. Lovska" at the seminary in the Carpathians. Perhaps you can wait until the survey is completed before comming to any conclusions.

On the other hand, perhaps we can "chip in to call" the bishop of Prajshiv (Presov) Slovakia and ask why he participated in the Slovakization / Latinization of the Ruthenian-Ukrainian Greek-Catholics over the past decades. Let's have a conference call to ask him why he particpated in the cultural ethnocide of his people.

Perhaps we can also "chip in to call" Fr. Zayak to ask why he has not publicly complained (during the Communist years and after) about the cultural ethonocide of the Ruthenian-Ukrainian people in Slovakia who have been reduced to less than 10% of their post WW2 numbers.

Perhaps we can ask him for his record on defending the enslaved Greek-Catholic people of the Soviet Union when they needed help most. I have gone through piles of archives, and I can't find a single piece of evidence of anyone from the USA Byzantine Metropolia defending the Greek-Catholics either the Soviet Union or Czechoslovakia.

I look forward to his justification for having abandoned the Ruthenian-Ukrainians of the East Block when they needed support and help the most.

Perhaps we can just ask the seminarians as part of the survey:

Question #1:

"Why did the Fr. Zayak and other members of his church abandon the Greek-Catholics of Eastern Europe, when the Ukrainian Greek Catholics dedicated their lives over decades to the defence and liberation of these oppressed peoples ?

Question #2:

Has Fr. Zayak publicly condemned the Bishop of Prajshiv (Presov) Slovakia for the illegal usurpation of power from the Greek Catholic bishops, and has he demanded a full investigation into the ethnocide of the Ukrainian Ruthenian peoples in that country ?


Hritzko

Such a request is certainly reasonable but it is not in line with Hritzko�s post from the other night (which he deleted) in which he stated that the seminarians all considered themselves to be ethnically Ukrainian (and not ethnically Carpatho-Rusin) and that he considered the question to now be �closed�.

I ask Hritzko to limit his posts in this thread to the single issue of the ethnos of the Carpathian people. He has repeatedly made an assertion that it doesn�t exist. I look forward to the completion of his survey and hope it is conducted with professionalism so that it might be believable.

Hritzko has now made new personal accusations against an individual who is a Byzantine Catholic priest from the Eparchy of Passaic serving as a visiting professor at the seminary in Uzhorod. He has previously suggested a past active aggression of Carpatho-Rusins in America against Ukrainians in Ukraine (which he has never substantiated). I ask Hritzko to immediately provide rock solid evidence to substantiate these accusations or to publicly withdraw them. Evidence should be provided in a new thread and be given with supporting explanations from Father Zeyack (he is only a phone or e-mail call away). A simple withdrawal of the accusations against the person of Father Zeyack may be made in this thread. If Hritzko does not either provide direct, verifiable evidence supporting his personal accusation or withdraw these accusations he will loose his posting privileges on this forum.

John,

Why don't you provide "rock solid evidence" that Fr. Zayack, a visiting Greek-Catholic priest, participated in the defence of the Greek-Catholics in Soviet Ukraine.

I have simply stated, that I have not been able to locate any evidence of his defending the Greek-Catholics in Soviet Ukraine (and I have access to decades of relevant archives). Should you be able to locate such archives and post them here, then I would be happy to appologize and withdraw my comments.

You seem to feel you can dish out all the negative comments you like about Ukrainians and the UGCC. You do not seem to understand how inflamatory they are.

I have contacted several people, including the Ukrainian Ambassador to investigate your accussations of repression of people in Zakarpattia.

I will also contact Fr. Zayack early next week to discuss his past record in defending the Greek-Catholics of Soviet Ukraine. I will also inform him of your unsubstantiated comments and our involvement of senior government officials with the matter.

Hritzko

I am not familiar with Father Zeyack's personal history, nor would I consider it appropriate to get involved in personalities in the absence of the person under discussion.
As to the Pittsburgh Metropolia, there was certainly one occaision when they did raise their voice in protest - just after the Moscow Patriarchate Sobor that elected Pimen, and that also announced its gratification at the extinction of the Union of Brest and the Union of Uzhhorod - I was present at Uniontown that year and heard Stephen Kocisko issue a ringing denunciation of what he termed the audacity of the Moscow Patriarchate, and a strong affirmation that the Union of Uzhhorod had not disappeared. It was not enough, and it was not sustained, but it was more than zero.
Incognitus

If I may interject quickly, Hriztko, from a strictly civil procedure standpoint, it is up to you do provide evidence of your accusations and not the obligation of the accused to defend himself from such accusations until evidence of the accusation has been presented.

I'll go back to shutting up now.

Dear Incognitus,

Rest assured that I do not plan on involving any negative comments (or anything at all) about Fr. Zayack in our discussions with the seminarians in Uzhorod. The questions I posed were simply rhetorical and were an attempt to try to highlight to John the antagonistic nature of ranting and raving about the 'poor Rusyns in Zakarpattia'. They are doing fine as part of the Ukrainian nation.

Further, we do not plan on 'bashing' any Greek-Catholics from the USA when speaking to the seminarians. The Byzcaths have done an extraordinary job at building an American Byzantine Church (something the UGCC needs to do). Let that be the enduring impression they have of that church.

Hritzko

Mikey,

The questions I posed were rhetorical in nature. That should be clear.

There are volumes upon volumes of historical evidence of the larger Ruthenian collective group know as 'Ukrainians' defending the Greek Catholic Church (Mukachevo Eparchy included), Autocephalous Orthodox, and other churches and cultural institution of Ukraine. I just can't seem to find anything from the Byzcath side.

I find it hypocritical that today members of that church are critical of the larger Ukrainian Church and Ukraine.

I have informed senior members of the rectory that we would like to investigate the alleged repression in the Uzhorod seminary as posted by John S.

Hritzko

Hritzko,

You have made a number of negative accusations, including several against the person of Father John Zeyack. I ask you now to do one of two things:

1) Provide specific, credible evidence to support your accusations, including the ones against the person of Father Zeyack.

2) Totally and completely withdraw your accusations with a specific mention that you withdraw those accusations you have made against the person of Father Zeyack.

If your next post does not comply with one of the two actions listed above your actions will cause you to forfeit all posting privileges on the Forum.

Further, if you choose course (1) above you are required to explain in detail how the actions or inactions of the individual and individuals you have accused support your claim that the Carptatho-Rusin ethnicity does not exist as separate from the Ukrainian ethnicity.

Admin

John,

I have been unable to find any evidence of Fr. Zayack's defence of the Greek-Catholics in Soviet Ukraine or his public condemnation of the cultural ethnocide of the Ruthenian-Ukrainians of Slovakia during the Communist era.

It was as you state "inaction" that is the issue and not "action". If there had been "action" on his part or that of the church, there would be a 'paper trail'. I can't find any in the tons of archieves available to me so the onus is not on me. Perhaps there is in fact some article somewhere from the 60's, 70's, 80's, that I missed.

Next week I will be speaking again to people in Zakarpattia and I hope to have the opportunity of also speaking to Fr. Zayack. If I'm wrong I will not only withdraw my comments but appologize on this forum and make a donation to the seminary. In the interim, if you have any evidence of his anti-Soviet era 'actvism', please feel free to post them or tell me where I can locate the said materials.

I don't doubt that Fr. Zayack is a well intentioned good Christian. That is not the issue and it never has been. It's your ranting and raving about issues which do not exist.

The issue is that we dedicated a significant part of our lives to the liberation of the churches, peoples, and culture of Ukraine. We have gone to great lengths to ensure that the modern republic is pluralistic and open.

I have spoken to several important people in the last few days about your postings and this has been their reaction .

The survey has yet to be completed, but start absorbing these facts which have been discussed with clerics and administrators in Zakarpattia and will be included in the report:

(1) The name of the church is:
GREEK CATHOLIC CHURCH - MUKACHIV EPARCHY, UKRAINE
(Ukraine is the modern word for Ruthenia(n) hence why it is not used at the beginning)

(2) The church is closely affiliated with the UGCC and most seminarians feel a close bond to it and that they are part of it.

(3) Liturgical language: UKRAINIAN

(4) Language of instruction at the seminary: UKRAINIAN

(5) Language of conversation: UKRAINIAN

(6) Citizenship: UKRAINIAN

(7) Favorite colours: Blue & Yellow

You may also find it incredible, but we discussed at length (in standard Ukrainian) most of what I have posted and they were impressed with my understanding of Zakarpattia culture and society. None disagreed with what I had stated. Further, most were knowledgeable about our youth organizations 'Plast' and 'SUM' and were highly encouraging of their ongoing charitable activities. Two priests told me that they had family members who were members of 'Plast' during the interwar period in Czechoslovakia.

Carpatho-Rusyn = Carpatho-Ukrainian

YOU AND ME ARE THE SAME PEOPLE - GET OVER IT !

Hritzko

It's my turn to do the steaks on the BBQ. Everyone thinks I'm nuts 'cause I keep running off to my computer.

Dear Hritzko,
I'm tempted to post this in Ukrainian. But attempting to write Ukrainian in the Latin alphabet drives me nuts, and produces something not altogether legible (which is why the Cyrllic alphabet exists), so I'll resist the temptation.
As you already know, while all the evidence is not yet in, so actual conclusions are premature, I'm inclined to agree with much of your analysis. However, I'm also inclined to agree with the crtiticism that what comes across as attacks on individuals is likely to be counterproductive. I do not know Father John Zeyack, and I don't even know what he's teaching, nor do I know what his linguistic qualifications may be - let alone his philological opinions. But I am quite certain that the questions which concern us are of greater importance than one man's linguistic qualifications and/or philological opinions. Calling him names is pointless.
It is, sadly, true that the Pittsburgh Metropolia did relatively little on behalf of the persecuted Church. That really is their misfortune. Two causes for this lamentable failure come to mind: first, for whatever reason, very few of the postwar emigration from Transcarpathia, Eastern Slovakia, the Lemko Region or anyplace else that is either Ukraine proper or Ukrainian ethnographic territory joined parishes of the Pittsburgh Metropolia, so there was little internal pressure to act. Second, since the Pittsburgh Metropolia of set purpose had and has nothing to do with the Ukrainian Synod, there was also little or no external pressure to do anything. To their credit, they did at least give significant support to Bishop Basil Hopko. As I said earlier today, what they managed to do was insufficient and unsatisfactory, but it is still more than zero.
When things had reached the beginning of the end - by 1988 - the diaspora Ukrainians were already accustomed to visit Western Ukraine from time to time. Some had visited Transcarpathia as well, even though the restrictions there had been even tighter than in Galicia. Once it became possible to go in by driving north from Hungary via Uzhhorod, it was also easier to do that, and provided the opportunity to meet with the Bishops in Transcarpathia. Hence the diaspora Ukrainians "got there first" so to speak - and did good things for the Church in Transcarpathia. So it is not at all surprising that the Mukachevo Eparchy manages to relate to the Ukrainian diaspora - it would be surprising if they did not. If my information is correct, the cathedral in Uzhhorod was literally "reansomed" by one Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Bishop in North America. I know for a fact that anaother Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Bishop in North America gave Bishop Ivan Semedij the first pontifical vestments he had ever set eyes on.
There are, of course, several historical elements which complicate the ethnic/national picture in Transcarpathia. What's needed is a serious, scientific analysis of what has happened in the relatively recent past, both in Transcarpathia and in the USA, and an honest, scientifically conductred survey to determine ethnic self-understanding and attitudes in Transcarpthia itself. That is a tall order, but it would, I suspect, be worthwhile.
What? You're cooking steaks and there's none for me? That's gratitude for you!
Incognitus

IMO,

The Lord and Apostles would not care to see the Church with these ethnic labels, they are divisive. Did not St. Paul admonish the Corinthians for such ?

Need something without the "pride" factor.

james

Greg,

I keep re-reading the posts from which I've quoted above and keep finding myself with the same question -

Why was or is it incumbent in your narrow thought process that Father Zeyack, among all the thousands of Ruthenian clergy and faithful, have taken the stance that you suggest that he has not taken?

Do you apply that same yardstick to every presbyter of the UGCC and the Ruthenian Church sui iuris? Or is it just that John suggested Father as a source for verification of his stand on the issue of Carpatho-Rusyns as an distinct ethnic and religious identity?

Many years,

Neil

The bickering over a couple of Eparchies is beyond the point of ludicrosity now. I have refrained from this whole sorry mess but can't any longer.

And in the future, any casting of the term "nationalist" or "ethnic" on Ukrainians by certain Ruthenians on this Forum will ring quite hollow, seeing what has transpired here.

The Greek Catholics of Mukachevo-Uzhorod identify themselves as Ukrainian Greek Catholics. At least all of them I have spoken to or corresponded with. Regardless of what the hierachal situation is on paper, that is the simple and undeniable reality.

They most definitely do NOT go around identifying themselves as "Church of Mukachevo-Uzhorod sui iuris. That is just plain silly.

If I go to Joe Schmoe on the streets of any town in Kansas, and would try to even begin explaining what is going on here, I hardly think any souls would be won for Christ.

On the contrary, an average person could care less and might even come away with a sense of disgust or at least contradiction comparing the Gospel message I am trying to convey with the shameful disunity being displayed here.

If even Greek Catholics can't be unified amongst themselves, how can we ever hope to move out with an evangelical mission?

I have seen statements here which advocate a unified Greek Catholic hierarchy in the USA. I have seen the very same people advocate the maintenance of a bizzare sui iuris form of governance for smaller eparchies descended from the same Church of Rus' dependent entirely on Rome for administration. That is a completely anomalous situation, never intended by any of the Unions.

Bishops who are Latin Rite appointed with bi-ritual faculties to be Greek Catholic hierarchs. Ecclesiastical nonsense. The Orthodox have to be saying, "I told you so" anytime Rome appoints one of these hierarches.

The most sensible approach is to return to a more traditionally Constantinopolitan approach, i.e. a Patriarchate of Rus'. That is going to take mutual love and charity. That is going to take "Rusyns" and "Ukrainians" putting aside differences and showing some respect and love. The end result could be a glorious Christian unity.

That Patriarch of Rus', following the Constantinopolitan model, abides in love and charity with his Eparchies who can decide to honor whatever particular linguistic and liturgical nuances they wish to, whether that be Rusyn, Hungarian, Serbo-Croatian, Russian, whatever.

If Constantinople can include eparchies as diverse as the Ukrainian Orthodox in the USA, could we not foster greater unity of purpose by following that most BYZANTINE form of governance, a Greek Catholic Patriarchate, which includes all of the Churches of Rus' heritage in Europe?

Or perhaps we are just happy being Uniates dependent on Rome to decide our future and our leaders. If that's the case, let's quit pretending we are "Orthodox in communion with Rome".

That also is nonsense if we continue to advocate our little Uniate fiefdoms dependent on Rome. We are only Orthodox in communion with Rome if we go all the way, including our form of hierarchal governance.

I took the time tonight to phone a few friends of mine who have traveled extensively to Uzhorod and Transcarpathia and who are in regular contact with the people who live there. I asked a number of questions and have summarized them for the purposes of this discussion. I do not offer this as definitive proof of anything. I offer it as food for thought.

Q1: What is the ethnos of the people living in Transcarpathia?

A1: It depends. There are many minorities � 82 in Transcarpathia � including a number of Armenians. The people who are �native� to the Carpathians consider themselves to be �Rusins� or �Carpatho-Rusins�. About 10 to 15% consider themselves to be �Carpatho-Ukrainians�.


Q2: Do they consider themselves to be ethnic Ukrainians?

A2: No. They consider themselves to be Rusins. Since Rusin is not a legally acknowledged ethnic minority they must check �Ukrainian� on the legal forms. They accept the term �Ukrainian� in the sense that they live in the country of Ukraine, but it is not their ethnicity.


Q3: What language do they speak?

A3: That depends. At home they speak Rusin. In public life they speak mostly Ukrainian. When they were part of the Soviet Union they spoke Russian in public and were taught Russian in school. Many consider Russian to be their first language. If you spoke to them in Ukrainian they would answer you in Ukrainian and speak it all day long. You would think they never spoke anything else. But they don�t speak it at home and if you will listen to the two languages you will hear that they are quite different. A rough comparison could be made to Germany, where High German is the public, formal language but people speak the various dialects in their villages and at home. The idea of speaking different languages to different people every day is confusing to us Americans but it is normal for people in Europe.


Q4: How do the Greek Catholics describe their Church?

A4: They call themselves �Greek Catholic�.


Q5: Do they consider themselves to be part of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church?

A5: No. They will sometimes use the phrase �Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine�. The exception is a minority who consider themselves to be Ukrainian and to merge with Lviv.


Q6: Has the idea of becoming part of the UGCC (Lviv) ever been considered?

A6: Yes. There were some informal discussions. If Transcarpathia is to be part of the country of Ukraine there is some logic to such a move. The informal conversations didn�t go very far because the Rusins stated that they would need guarantees respecting their Carpatho-Rusin liturgical customs, the use of Church Slavonic in the Liturgy and the use of Prostopinije (Carpatho-Rusin Liturgical Chant). Lviv said that such guarantees were impossible and that if they became part of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church they would conform to Ukrainian usage in the Liturgy, use Ukrainian, and use Ukrainian chant in the Liturgy. It was quickly decided that this was unacceptable and that the current arrangement with Rome was far better and would help protect the Carpatho-Rusin Church and its customs.


Q7: So they use Church Slavonic in all Divine Services? Anything else?

A7: Church Slavonic is used in almost all of the 316 parishes and at the seminary in Uzhorod. There about 10 parishes that use Ukrainian in the Liturgy and maybe another 10 that take the readings in Ukrainian.


Q8: If I visited there and went up to someone on the street and asked their ethnicity, how would they respond?

A8: That depends. They will respond with whatever they think you wish to hear. If they know you are from Lviv and speak to them in Ukrainian they will tell you they are Carpatho-Ukrainian. If they know you are from Slovakia they may tell you they are Slovak. They don�t think much about ethnic identity. They are who they are and know who they are not. If they know you are �one of them� they will tell you �Rusin�.


Q9: Do they desire political independence from Ukraine?

A9: Yes. In 1991 or whenever they voted, 90% of the people voted for autonomy. Kiev refused. They still feel the same way but they are the poorest of the poor and that is not on the short list of things to accomplish. Survival always comes first.


Q10: What are the liturgical leanings of the clergy and seminarians?

A10: It is like everywhere else. There is a majority and a few small minorities. 80% support the use of the Carpatho-Rusin liturgical customs. The rest are roughly divided between supporting Ukrainian usage and Russian usage.


Q11: What do the Rusins feel about Ukrainians?

A11: Generally speaking the Rusins very much like Ukrainians. They get along very well.

--

I agree totally. It is amazing how much ill will one person � Hritzko - has generated when he insisted on making pronouncements about another person�s ethnos.

Hritzko,

If I may,

Since the debate is publicly posted, though between you, and the administrator John, I felt compelled to reply as a member of this bulletin board regarding what appears to be a personal attack.

Perhaps it is you who assumes that Fr.Zeyack has been in Ukraine for many decades rather than presume that he has been in the US for all those decades of which you are searching through? If I recall correctly it was only within the last two years that Fr. Zeyack went to Ukraine. I do not know his past history other than he attended the Byzantine Catholic seminary and that I had met him briefly around 4 years ago here in California.

Please tell me where I might search to find evidence of you (Hritzko) making defences of Ukrainian Greek Catholics in public other than what has been posted here as well as your research on Fr. Zeyack�s �lack� of public defence. Is there a particular reason for such a personally directed attack against Fr. Zeyack when his name was brought up as a third party to verify a questionaire, which will likely not be posted long enough for bulletin board members to read? Do you feel that he is an official spokesman for the Metropolia instead of the bishops?

It is easy to accuse someone by way of the internet and bulletin boards.

Before you read any further, I am NOT accusing you of this. I am only stating that since it is so easy to post one's accusations anonymously, the party being accused does not enjoy the right as an American citizen to face his accuser.


�Question #1:

"Why did the Fr. Zayak and other members of his church abandon the Greek-Catholics of Eastern Europe, when the Ukrainian Greek Catholics dedicated their lives over decades to the defence and liberation of these oppressed peoples ?

Question #2:

Has Fr. Zayak publicly condemned the Bishop of Prajshiv (Presov) Slovakia for the illegal usurpation of power from the Greek Catholic bishops, and has he demanded a full investigation into the ethnocide of the Ukrainian Ruthenian peoples in that country ?

later in another post you write:

�Dear Incognitus,

Rest assured that I do not plan on involving any negative comments (or anything at all) about Fr. Zayack in our discussions with the seminarians in Uzhorod.


I would certainly hope that the seminarians in Uzhorod have not visited this bulletin board then!

(Bulletin boards are wonderful places to hide behind with alias screen names and fictional information in the biography.)

Back to just reading the posts.

Steve

Carpatho-Rusyn =/= Carpatho-Ukrainian