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What is a Latinsation? #101553 11/12/05 12:07 PM
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Myles Offline OP
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Today, according to the Latin calender, is the feastday of St Josaphat of Ukraine and it made me begin to think about the issue of 'Latinisation'.

I remember the way the Roman populace reacted to Pope St Gregory the Great's insertion of the Kyrie Eleison into the Latin liturgy. They were not pleased. Indeed, they were so displeased that Pope St Gregory had to address his flock formally to explain himself. The Roman people of this period were no fans of Greek and regarding the language as pretensious to the ear were most displeased by Gregory's actions. Yet today large numbers of Roman Catholics look back at Pope St Gregory as pseudo-Patriarch of the Roman Rite. It made me wonder...what is a Latinsation, really? Where does legitimate borrowing end and loss of identity begin?

Arguably the inclusion of the Kyrie Eleison in the Roman liturgy was a Hellenization. Put yourself in the shoes of the average 6th century Italian: Suddenly and without warning in the process of his liturgical formalisations your Pope and Patriarch restructures the penetential rite in a language that is not only foreign but regarded as belonging to a people you regard as uppity and proud. Would you like it?

Yet, in spite of that, the Kyrie Eleison has become an integral part of the Roman Mass. It has been set to some of the most beautiful pieces of Western music ever written and its vernacular form is held in contempt by 'Latin trads'.

Thus I ask: What is Latinisation? Where does pooling the Catolica become drowning oneself in foreign traditions and (maybe more importantly) theology. I ask this sincerely because I believe for the Greek Catholic Church to go forward in our times it requires a clear sense of identity that--and I say this not to cause offense and admittedly as an outsider--appears to be currently lacking.

INXC
Myles


"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
Re: What is a Latinsation? #101554 11/12/05 01:30 PM
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Pavloosh Offline
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Identity lacking?
You've got to be kidding!

Re: What is a Latinsation? #101555 11/12/05 01:56 PM
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Apotheoun Offline
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The thread at the link below contains some useful information (and some irrelevant information too) on Latinisations in the Eastern Churches:

Catalogue of Latinisations

Example:

Quote
Originally posted by KO63AP:
Latinisations at a parish I know well...
  • use of confessionals
  • loss of proper Eucharistic preparation and fasting in general
  • preference for read, not sung, Eucharistic services
  • rare use of incense
  • little kids as servers
  • priests not wearing cuffs
  • use of precuts
  • paten instead of diskos, not veiled. Chalice covered withe a "card" instead of a proper veil with flaps
  • pews
  • kneeling when one is not supposed to
  • multiple Divine Liturgies celebrated on same Holy Table on the same day {and on the same antimension}
  • Royal Doors open throughout Liturgy and one, or both, deacon's door open if no servers. {I consider the Royal Doors being open throughout a DL (non-pontifical) as a Latinization. The Romans don't block the view of the priest and what he is doing, so ...}
  • bowing of heads at mention of "incarnation" during "Only-begotten Son" and during "Credo"
  • kneeling during Gospel reading {OK, I know this isn't done in the Roman Church, but it definitely isn't "ours"}
  • filioque in the Symbol of Faith
  • no use of zeon/teplota
  • permitting people to kneel to receive
  • no a-liturgical days (except Great & Holy Friday, of course)
  • May devotions
  • October is "Rosary Month" - rosary recited after every Divine Liturgy
  • daily evening Divine Liturgies (in parish's defense, not on Sunday)
  • attendance at Saturday evening DL satisfies "Sunday obligation"
  • Corpus Christi and related feasts celebrated. Also "Christ the King" in October, like the Romans used to.
  • Moleben to the Sacred Heart served the 9 days after Corpus Christi {I'm not 100% sure on the timing as I try not to be present for such}
  • baptism by pouring, not immersion
  • refusal to include Eucharist with other Sacraments of Initiation plus refusal to give Communion to children who were communed at baptism until their "real" First Communion
  • creche (manger) set up for Christmas
  • proper funeral services replaced by requiem DL
  • Stations of the Cross during the Great Fast



Of course, there are other propblems which can't properly be considered latinizations, unless one uses the argument that any trimming or neglecting of traditions is a latinization. This is how I think. There a tendency to have things quick and simple, "Just like Roman (read as "real"?) Catholics".

Although Dolnytsky's Typyk, the Ordo Celebrationis and the Rescensio Rutena books aren't perfect (yes, I'm picky), it would be an immense improvement if we could at least follow our own books! Instead things are(not) done due to "pastoral considerations" which, of course, means "consider the pastor first". :p

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον ηάς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Re: What is a Latinsation? #101556 11/12/05 03:26 PM
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Myles Offline OP
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Pavloosh I apologise for causing offence I didnt mean to be rude. Sorry. Apoutheon thats quite a comprehensive list and it sounds fair and reasonable enough. Though I dont think the Stations of the Cross need neccessarily be considered a negative exchange.

Well, that solves that then wink


"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
Re: What is a Latinsation? #101557 11/12/05 03:40 PM
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incognitus Offline
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Dear Myles,
On the issue of the Stations of the Cross we obviously differ. But first a bit of theory:

In the use of the term as applied to the Eastern Catholics, Latinisation has two distinct meanings:

a) the assimilation of Eastern Catholics into the Latin Church and practice, whether by force or by enticement; and/or

b) the imposition of various and sundry usages, disciplines, spiritual traditions and/or theology from the Latin tradition upon one or another Eastern Catholic tradition.

One could reasonably ask what is "wrong" with either or both of these phenomena. Well, they represent cultural genocide, the existence of these phenomena gives the lie to repeated promises of the Popes, and so on.


But there are two good studies available on the subject: Uniatism by Father Cyril Korolevsky and a much more recent book by Father Ernst-Christoph Suttner (I don't remember the title off-hand).

Almost invariably the practice or thinking imposed from the Latin tradition is from the worst of the Latin tradition. Nobody has ever tried to form Greek-Catholic Trappists, for instance. But if I start giving negative examples, I'll inevitably insult people.

Incognitus

Re: What is a Latinsation? #101558 11/12/05 03:43 PM
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Mike C. Offline
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"I remember the way the Roman populace reacted to Pope St Gregory the Great's insertion of the Kyrie Eleison into the Latin liturgy. "

You are over 1700 years old? Wow! Well, the Kyrie wasn't inserted, it was left over from the earlier liturgy, and the Greek kept to remind people that the Mass was in Greek before it was in Latin.

Re: What is a Latinsation? #101559 11/12/05 05:04 PM
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Orthodox Pyrohy Offline
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Yes, myles is over 1700 years old. His beard is proof of the fact (yes I ended a sentence with a preposition).
Myles, trust us colonials. They're working hard on the front-lines in the battle against latinizations (you know we use the letter z here in the colonies).

Re: What is a Latinsation? #101560 11/12/05 05:16 PM
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Hieromonk Elias Offline
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An interesting list of old and familiar Latinizations! More subtle (and more dangerous) are new Latinizations, that are championed now, unrecognized for what they are, and not included in this list.

Elias

Re: What is a Latinsation? #101561 11/12/05 07:42 PM
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anamchristi Offline
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How about the substitution of scholastic theology (especially that of Aquinas) for that of our Eastern Fathers?

Re: What is a Latinsation? #101562 11/12/05 09:21 PM
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Myles Offline OP
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Quote
You are over 1700 years old? Wow! Well, the Kyrie wasn't inserted, it was left over from the earlier liturgy, and the Greek kept to remind people that the Mass was in Greek before it was in Latin.
From Pope St Gregory the Great's Register of Epistles Book IX, Letter 12

Quote
One coming from Sicily has told me that some friends of his, whether Greeks or Latins I know not, as though moved by zeal for the holy Roman Church, murmur about my arrangements [i.e. of divine service], saying, How can he be arranging so as to keep the Constantinopolitan Church in check, when in all respects he follows her usage? And, when I said to him, What usages of liners do we follow? he replied; you have caused Alleluia to be said at mass out of the season of Pentecost[7]; you have made appointment for the sub-deacons to proceed disrobed[8], and for Kyrie Eleison to be said, and for the Lord's Prayer to be said immediately after the canon...For as to what they say about the Church of Constantinople, who can doubt that it is subject to the Apostolic See, as both the most pious lord the emperor and our brother the bishop of that city continually acknowledge? Yet, if this or any other Church has anything that is good, I am prepared in what is good to imitate even my inferiors, while prohibiting them from things unlawful. For he is foolish who thinks himself first in such a way as to scorn to learn whatever good things he may see.
I had been led to believe that though the Roman Liturgy had been in Greek until the pontificate of Pope St Damasus in the 380s AD there had been no use of the Kyrie Eleison therein until the pontificate of Pope St Gregory the Great. However, if any information can be provided to the contrary then I would be grateful for the correction.

Quote
Almost invariably the practice or thinking imposed from the Latin tradition is from the worst of the Latin tradition. Nobody has ever tried to form Greek-Catholic Trappists, for instance. But if I start giving negative examples, I'll inevitably insult people.
This goes to the heart of my question. What is legitimate to take from the Latin tradition and what is not? For instance, you disagreed with my sentiments that the stations of the cross fall into the category of legitimate pooling of traditions. Why is that? If adopted properly e.g. in iconic form how do the stations of the cross threaten the East's identity and patrimony. You are free moreover to criticise the West as you wish. I will show you the same courtesy that you have shown me and not take offence to your opinions.

INXC
Myles

PS) What Latinisations do you allude to Fr Elias?


"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
Re: What is a Latinsation? #101563 11/12/05 10:31 PM
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Ecce Jason Offline
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Myles and All,

I have two general comments/suggestions.

First, may I submit that the situation with the Eastern Catholic churches vis-a-vis adopting Latin practices is somewhat different from that historical case of the Latin Rite adopting the Greek kyrie eleison? You may ask why. Well, here is why: the Orthodox are watching us. As long as we hold fast to the Orthodox traditions we have received, and do not deviate, we are a clear witness to the fact that union with Rome does not entail assimilation and rigid uniformity. This is one of our chances to bear witness to unity through our actions, so to speak. If we adopt Latin practices, on the other hand, we will portray exactly the opposite of what we want to portray: namely, it will appear to the Orthodox as if we are not really Orthodox at all, but rather have assimilated to the Western church and abandoned our traditions in favor of assimilation. This latter option is simply not acceptable.

I think that clears up a lot of the issue, because then it becomes obvious that even seemingly "minor" changes might carry drastic consequences. We have to be on our guard against everything. Were the churches united, then I think freely adopting different practices across rites could end up being much more acceptable -- for now, though, it is not.

Keeping that in mind, something helpful might be to list things that are obviously Latinizations and things that are obviously not. Then maybe we can work on finding the common features of each. Sure, there may be a vague middle ground, but this should at least be helpful (although I have no suggestions). But even once those categories are clarified, I would urge caution again that virtually any change is going to be controversial in light of what's been said above, and usually ought to be guarded against.

Thanks, and God bless,
Jason

Re: What is a Latinsation? #101564 11/12/05 10:33 PM
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incognitus Offline
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Dear Myles,
Why do I suspect that you have an agenda here? As to stations of the cross, I really don't want to insult people. However, since you appear to insist:

a) that devotional form ignores the Resurrection of Our Savior.

b) the use of that form in our Churches displaces our proper services for Great Lent (such as the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, the Akathistos Hymn to the Holy Theotokos, and Little Compline.

c) the manner of the procession for that activity does not resemble ours, and

d) attend the Passion Gospels service on Holy Thursday evening sometime - you might get the idea!

Incognitus

Re: What is a Latinsation? #101565 11/12/05 10:38 PM
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'Latinisation' is when congos and marimba are added to the beat.

-ray


-ray
Re: What is a Latinsation? #101566 11/12/05 11:37 PM
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djs Offline
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Latinisation occurs in the UK; here we have had Latinization.

Re: What is a Latinsation? #101567 11/12/05 11:52 PM
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RayK Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Pyrohy:
Yes, myles is over 1700 years old.
Do you mean that he actually remembers when you had to get up - to change the TV channel.

My God! That IS old!

-ray


-ray
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