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Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101637 10/31/03 11:30 PM
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MizByz74 Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Coalesco:
Quote
Originally posted by Saintclare74:
[b]
If I couldn't have Byzantine liturgy, I'd go to a church that offers a licit Tridentine Mass... can no longer participate in the novus ordo Mass with a clear conscience.
I find that sad, are you sure it's your conscience that will not let you participate in the Missa Normativa?

Michael [/b]
Yes, I am. I cannot participate in a rite that was pretty much written by a closet Freemason and a group of Protestants, and which waters down and subtly repudiates constant Catholic teaching.

And yes, it IS sad.


Slava Isusu Christu!

Karen
Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101638 10/31/03 11:46 PM
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Theist Gal Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Saintclare74:
Yes, I am. I cannot participate in a rite that was pretty much written by a closet Freemason and a group of Protestants, and which waters down and subtly repudiates constant Catholic teaching.

And yes, it IS sad.
I've heard this before, but I don't buy it. If it's true, why don't Protestants use the Latin Rite Mass in their worship services?

I'll tell you why - it's because in spite of all the "watering down" and simplifying, this Mass STILL brings Christ to us, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity - and no Protestant or Freemason would have allowed that!

Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101639 11/01/03 12:05 AM
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Have you read "A Critical Study of the Novus Ordo Missae" by Cardinal Ottaviani, written in 1969? It's an excellent summary of what's wrong with the new Mass-- which, by the way, is not invalid-- unless the priest celebrating does not have the right intention when consecrating the bread and wine. And considering all the weird and liberal ideas being taught in seminaries and other Catholic teaching institutions today, we can't assume modern Roman priests DO consecrate with the correct intention, which is a very scary thought.

And actually, the Anglican/Episcopalian service is almost word-for-word the same as a Novus Ordo Mass, and so is the Lutheran. And I have also heard some of the exact same prayers we use at "lower" Protestant services!

To quote the above study, the wording of the Novus Ordo Mass is ambiguous enough to be readily accepted by "the most modernist of Protestants."

If you haven't read it and would like to, let me know and I'll give you the link where you can read it online. I don't want to get onto this topic in this thread, though.


Slava Isusu Christu!

Karen
Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101640 11/01/03 12:17 AM
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I don't think that Cardinal Ottaviani, who opposed nearly every decree of the Second Vatican Counci,l can be expected to be an impartial voice on the Rite of Mass of 1970. Didn't JOhn XXIII call him one of the "Prophets of Doom" who opposed calling the Council in the first place??

Also, the Episcopal Prayer Book revision of 1979 actually incorporated more prayers from the Orthodox tradition and from the Scottish Episcopal Church then any similarity with the Missal of Paul VI. Actually,some High Church Anglican parishes use the Anglican Missal which combines the 1662 Prayer Book with a translation of the Tridentine Mass.

Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101641 11/01/03 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by Saintclare74:
Have you read "A Critical Study of the Novus Ordo Missae" by Cardinal Ottaviani, written in 1969?
I've read it many times - almost always online. The problem with getting documents from the Internet, though, is that you will only see the documents that other people have taken the time to put there.

For example, are you aware that Cardinal Ottaviani wrote this about the FIRST DRAFT of the New Mass? And that once the FINAL draft was written, he wrote the following:

Quote
"I have rejoiced profoundly to read the discourse by the holy father on the question of the new ordo missae, and especially the doctrinal precisions contained in his discourses at the public audiences of november 19 and 26, after which I believe, no one can any longer be genuinely scandalized. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your ‘doctrinal note' [on the novus ordo] and the activity of the militia sanctae mariae wide diffusion and success." -- Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani

----from James Likoudis and Kenneth Whitehead, The Pope, The Council and The Mass, The Christopher publishing house, w. Hanover, Massachusetts, 1981, p. 74.
Granted, the above is not reproduced at 1,001 SSPX sites, but it is available if you look for it.

Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101642 11/01/03 02:22 AM
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MizByz74 Offline
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I actually have the manuscript. A lot of Latin phrases that you constantly have to look up-- that's the only frustrating part. It was only later that I found it online.

Like I said, I'd really rather drop the topic-- I don't think it's appropriate here.


Slava Isusu Christu!

Karen
Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101643 11/02/03 12:22 AM
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Teen,

My mom was never a Roman, she was baptized and chrismated in the Byzantine Catholic Church.

In Christ+
Daniel

I prayed for her conversion Protestantism, and it happend! Glory be to GOD!

Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101644 11/02/03 04:33 AM
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Ah, Ok.

That explains things, then!

Logos Teen

Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101645 11/02/03 07:58 AM
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Teen,

I noticed in one post that you are considering becoming a Melkite. With which parish are you involved: St John Chrysostom (Atlanta); or that of the 'blue-eyed Melkites', St Ignatios of Antioch (Augusta)?

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101646 11/02/03 07:48 PM
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Logos - Alexis Offline
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Teen,

I noticed in one post that you are considering becoming a Melkite. With which parish are you involved: St John Chrysostom (Atlanta); or that of the 'blue-eyed Melkites', St Ignatios of Antioch (Augusta)?

Many years,

Neil
Well, from what I know about the Melkite tradition, it all seems great. However, perhaps I spoke too hastily because I've never even been to a service at a Melkite church!!

But, to answer your question, if I went Melkite I'd attend St. John's because I'm a little over an hour west of Atlanta as it is. Augusta is 3.5 hours away, entirely across the state. I'd be driving from Alabama to South Carolina for every service. eek

What do you know about either of these parishes? Are they well thought of in the American Melkite community? Are they noteworthy at all? What's your opinion? I really should attend St. John's sometime.

Logos Teen

P.S. I noticed the St. Ignatius parish was featured on the Eparchy of Newton homepage for the Easter egg art.

Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101647 11/03/03 01:53 AM
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Dear Saintclare74,

I agree with you that the topic of the Ottaviani Intervention is not appropos to this thread. The facts of the intervention were pretty complicated.

It has been discussed on the forum before. One instance is found in a discussion that I particapated in on Forum 4 East-N-West. The topic was St.Theodore Romzha:Greek Catholic Martyr. The discussion took place on 01-13-2001.

Hope that the information is of some use to you.

Steve

Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101648 11/03/03 11:12 AM
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Teen,

Both parishes are well-thought of in the Melkite community. As welcoming as I believe all our parishes to be, I think these 2 are especially so.

St John Chrysostom is a parish of about 125 families, as I recollect. It is situated in a historic mansion, which was formerly the home of the Coca-Cola magnate.

Rt. Rev. Archimandrite and Patriarchal Exarch William Haddad, B.S.O., of blessed memory, a true gentleman and really the spiritual father of the parish, guided it for some 45 years, until he retired about 5 years ago.

Father John Azar, the present pastor, has been assigned there for about 3 years. He was a late-comer to the priesthood, having left the seminary some years back to take up a high-school teaching career before re-entering the seminary several years ago. He was the former Rector of our Cathedral, here in Boston; he's an excellent speaker and writer, works particularly well with youth, and probably "talks funny" by Southern standards - being a Rhode Island native who spent several years in "New Joisey" and Massachusetts.

St. John Chrysostom

One of the parishoners from St. John's, Professor Tom Whalen, moderates another Eastern Catholic forum on the web:

CINEAST

St. Ignatios is a rather unique parish. They've been known to refer to themselves as "the blue-eyed Melkites". About 25 years ago, a married Episcopal priest made inquiries about being received and ordained into the Melkite Eparchy. The parish began as a mission of St. John's.

It's a real study in ecumenism: its early liturgies were served in a Latin church by Ruthenian, Melkite, and bi-ritual Latin priests. The pastor for the last 22 years has been that former Episcopal priest, now the Rt. Rev. ArchPriest Daniel Munn. Father Dan, a very personable man, received his Byzantine liturgical training from the priests described above and the local Greek Orthodox pastor; he is bi-ritual and also serves as Parochial Vicar of the Latin parish which hosted St. Ignatios in its early days. St. Ignatios' processional cross was a gift from Father Dan's former Episcopalian parishoners and the church is also graced with a large cross on permanent loan from the Sisters of a local Episcopal convent. At one time, early in the parish's history, its members included Melkites, Ruthenians, Latins, Indian Orthodox, and non-Catholic catechumens from several Protestant denominations. All-in-all, a rather unique parish.

St. Ignatios

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Dealing with Family who are still RC #101649 11/08/03 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by Ladyhawke1017:
To all who have changed over from the RC to the EC: How did your family react to the news, and did you have any trouble from them?
I myself am a Latin Catholic, coming from a mixed family of RC/Protestant. I entered the Church about 6 years ago and my family was supportive. Sadly though, most of them are "noun Catholics/Protestants" as someone else termed it.

While I personally have no wish to 'switch' to a Byzantine Church, I have grown quite fond of them. I don't mean this in a patronizing way, but just that what I found in the Latin Catholic Church I find there as well. They are family, a lil' quirky at times, but beloved family. There is much from our Eastern Catholic family that I find enriching to the Faith so I personally have no problem if one finds 'home' more there rather than in my own Church. Besides, I'm the crazy Anglo who likes the Mass in Spanish a lot of the time because of the reverance I find and the differences I can appreciate. :p

Pax Christi,
John


Pax Christi,
John
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