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Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104954
05/10/06 10:33 PM
05/10/06 10:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 93
Winnipeg (Manitoba)
eumir Offline OP
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eumir  Offline OP
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Christ is Risen!

Are there Eastern Catholics involve in the Catholic Charismatic (Renewal) movements? How does Eastern Christian theology adapt to Charismatic praxis, like speaking in toungues and others?

Thank you!
first among sinners

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104955
05/10/06 10:58 PM
05/10/06 10:58 PM
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somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
ebed melech Offline
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eumir,

I believe that Madonna House and its foundress, Catherine deHeuck Doherty had some connection to the renewal. I believe that Father Bob Wild has written a book on the evolution of Madonna House through the renewal to its current state.

I was also part of a charismatic covenant community growing up that ended up having an Orthodox church form with a number of its members. Certainly, the pneumatalogical emphasis within Eastern theology opens up some interesting connections to the charismatic renewal.

Also, Father George Maloney, of blessed memory, was involved in the charismatic renewal at one point.

Gordo

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104956
05/10/06 11:59 PM
05/10/06 11:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,518
The Most Corrupt State
Dr. Eric Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by eumir:
Christ is Risen!

Are there Eastern Catholics involve in the Catholic Charismatic (Renewal) movements? How does Eastern Christian theology adapt to Charismatic praxis, like speaking in toungues and others?

Thank you!
first among sinners
I hope they aren't. I don't want people flailing around on the ground and frothing at the mouth during the Divine Liturgy! mad

The Charismatic Renewal is supposed to be an anointing by the Holy Ghost. Well, those of us who have already been anointed in Baptism and Chrismation have the fullness of the Anointing. There is no other. It was a psychological phenomenon due to the lack of fellowship within mainstream protestantism movement that brought about the "Pentacostal" movement.


http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/speaking-tongues1.htm

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104957
05/11/06 02:56 AM
05/11/06 02:56 AM
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Jakarta, Indonesia
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Alfonsus Offline
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Is it that simple?
Although the external expression may lead us to think that this is a mere psychological phenomena, I don't think that is the core of the movement.

Several Popes from Paul VI up to John Paul II gave this movement endorsmenet. Benedict XVI is inviting communities and fraternities of renewal for celebration of Pentecost Vigil in Rome.

International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services (ICCRS), and Fraternities of Charismatic Communities were founded and enjoying pontifical rights.

Sure, excesses and abuses are everywhere. But if we read the definition, vision and mission of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as lined in ICCRS charter approved by Holy See, surely it is more than just psychological phenomenon due to lack of fellowship.

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104958
05/11/06 07:46 AM
05/11/06 07:46 AM
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ebed melech Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Eric:
The Charismatic Renewal is supposed to be an anointing by the Holy Ghost. Well, those of us who have already been anointed in Baptism and Chrismation have the fullness of the Anointing. There is no other. It was a psychological phenomenon due to the lack of fellowship within mainstream protestantism movement that brought about the "Pentacostal" movement.
Actually, I don't remember any reference to the renewal being an "anointing". There was certainly talk of an "outpouring of the Holy Spirit", but that could also be a reference to "anointing".

If you read some of the Catholic literature on the renewal, there is a clear connection made to the sacraments of initiation, particularly Chrismation/Confirmation. A great scholarly work on the subject is here.

Certainly parallels between certain elements of charismatic experience (not all) can be found in St. Simeon the New Theologian and St. Macarius. There is also that marvellous reference to the desert abba who was approached for help re: a disciple's struggle with keeping his rule of prayer. The abba stood and raised his hands in the air, with his ten fingers being set aflame saying "You must become fire!"

TO me the renewal always saw itself as the Holy Spirit "blowing" on the embers of Christian life given in the mysteries of initiation to set them aflame in conversion and an active apostolate. The difficulty is to separate the cultural phenomenon associated with the renewal with what was going on at a spiritual level. One of the problematics of the renewal was its almost unquestioning acceptance of Protestant ecclesiological and theological explanations for what was being experienced. Places such as Franciscan University of Steubenville and Madonna House are marvellous examples of the maturation of the movement into a form of "dynamic Catholic orthodoxy". THis came about through a rediscovery of the Catholic principles and the ways to properly reconcile charismatic experience with them.

My sense is that the movement was of God but was intended to be a "movement" not a perpetual phenomenon. One of the issues is the development of "charismatic communities" which were separate from parish life. It created a challenge of "double loyalty" which even evolved into an "us vs. them" mindset. This was clearly outside of the purpose of the renewal which should have been to help make those who experienced an authentic awakening of the Holy Spirit like leaven in a parish. But the focus of the renewal on the phenomenon associated with the charisms (and their protestantized expressions) made other parishioners (and clergy!) understandably wary! As the movement matured (and its members matured in their understanding of it) I think it has found its place within the church.

Just a few thoughts...

Gordo

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104959
05/11/06 11:47 AM
05/11/06 11:47 AM
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Thousand Oaks, CA
Memo Rodriguez Offline
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Hi,

Every time the subject of the charismatic movement arises in thes Forum I see negative opinions, most of which are inaccurate one way or another.

I usually remind people that the Charismatic Catholic Renewal is one of the several charismatic movements in the Church. The Renewal movement is, in my opinion, the most faithful to Church tradition and praxis.

Charismatic phenomena such as speaking in tongues, or having visions or healings do happen, but 1) They are not "enforced" in any way 2) They are always subject to discernment and 3) They are not what the Renewal is all about.

The Charismatic Renewal is all about a personal experience with the Risen Lord Jesus through prayer. This experience results in a new openness to the action of the Holy Spirt aimed not at "collecting" His gifts, but rather at bearing His fruits. The gifts are only one of the many "tools" or means He uses.

The Renewal movement is strictly loyal to Church authorities, we work from within the parish structure, together with other pastoral efforts and in permanent communication and filial obedience to the Pastor.

At the Diocesan level, the movement usually has permanent liaisons with the Bishop and it is not unusual the Bishop designates a priest to prodive guidance to the governing body of the movement.

Moreover, the Renewal movement has in great esteem the sacramental life of the Church and in no way it intends its prayer services to be a replacement for the Liturgy or a prayer for healing to be a replacement of the sacrament of the annointing of the sick or for the experience of the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" to be a replacement of the sacraments of Baptism and/or Confirmation(Chrismation) or the movement leadership to be a replacement for the ordained authority of the Church.

Of course, things not always go according to plan, but this is what we intend and in cases of deviation from the plan, the movement has strict rules of self-correction.

Our main problem is that people outside the movement tend to group all charismatics together and that hurts our reputation, because we would be the first ones to say that some of the allegedly Catholic charismatic groups "out there" are WAAAAAY out there, on the fringe of the Church and sadly, sometimes, beyond.

Popes Benedict and John Paul the Great before him, have had the Renewal movement in great esteem.

As a charismatic Latin Catholic, I feel right at home with Eastern spirituality and liturgy. You do not have to be loud and weird to be charismatic, the only thing you need to be is open to the action of the Holy Spirt and humble enough to recognize that all is Grace (gift, charisma).

Shalom,
Memo

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104960
05/11/06 05:12 PM
05/11/06 05:12 PM
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Posts: 1,042
Washington, DC
DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Memo Rodriguez:
Hi,

Every time the subject of the charismatic movement arises in thes Forum I see negative opinions, most of which are inaccurate one way or another.

I usually remind people that the Charismatic Catholic Renewal is one of the several charismatic movements in the Church. The Renewal movement is, in my opinion, the most faithful to Church tradition and praxis.

Charismatic phenomena such as speaking in tongues, or having visions or healings do happen, but 1) They are not "enforced" in any way 2) They are always subject to discernment and 3) They are not what the Renewal is all about.

The Charismatic Renewal is all about a personal experience with the Risen Lord Jesus through prayer. This experience results in a new openness to the action of the Holy Spirt aimed not at "collecting" His gifts, but rather at bearing His fruits. The gifts are only one of the many "tools" or means He uses.
Memo,
While this is all true from my experience it ends up turning into a clique filled group. That is if you do not experience the same personal experience as everyone else then you seem to be treated as some sort of outcast.

From my understanding the only way to show that you have recieved the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is though praying in tongues. If you don't then you haven't.

Also this focus on the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" does create two classes of Christians, those who have had this "Baptism" and those who don't.

They also seem to value some gifts over others, like praying in tongues, which I have yet to see be fully defended scripturally.

I tend to agree with Dr. Eric on this one.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104961
05/11/06 06:05 PM
05/11/06 06:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
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The Most Corrupt State
Dr. Eric Offline
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As regards to the "praying/speaking in tongues," it seems to me that the Biblical basis for it is not what is seen in Pentecostal circles. When the Holy Ghost came down on the Apostles they spoke their native languages and everyone else heard them in his or her own native language yet the Apostles only spoke Aramaic/Koine.

Most agree that the true gift of tongues was given to Sts. Pio of Pietrelcina and Vincent Ferrer in the Latin Church (I don't know of any Eastern Saints that have had it, if there were please let me know.) They spoke in Italian and Spanish respectively, yet could be understood by all who heard them talk.

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104962
05/11/06 06:20 PM
05/11/06 06:20 PM
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Jakarta, Indonesia
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Alfonsus Offline
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I agree that people in the renewal circle tend to act like what David said. But then, that is the people, not the essece of the movement itself.

Surely we can't equate the movement with its abuses and excesses.

If there are abuses and excesses, then we need to correct that. How? To understand and guide the Charismatic Movement as it is understood by the Church. We have ICCRS, than we can try first by guiding the movement trough the ICCRS vision and mission.

To separate outer expression from the core is very important in my opinion.
In talking about Charismatic Movement, people tend to equate the outside with the the Movement itself, and then try to kick it out all together without even trying to consider what the vision and mission the Church really have about the Charismatic movement.

Because the bad examples are abundant, they think "aha, that must be the movement identity and true face." Sadly, people in the Charismatic circle themself sometimes do not understand what Charismatic Renewal is. They too tend to equate the 'outer expression' with the Renewal itself.

The fact is, this movement and phenomena does have a place in the church (at least the Catholic Church discern it that way). If then we see things need to be corrected, instead saying "the Charismatic movement is blatant heresy," I think it is more profitable to show them the church direction about the Charismatic movement, to educate them about this movement, as directed for instance by ICCRS.

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104963
05/11/06 06:58 PM
05/11/06 06:58 PM
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ebed melech Offline
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The focus on "speaking in tongues" as a manifestation of the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is, in my mind, and example of a Protestantization within the movement. There are many charisms given to the ecclesia that are meant for the upbuilding of the Body. Whether or not there exists a specific gift of "angelic prayer" that causes one to speak in tongues that are not discernable to the human ear or understanding is debatable.

But to me, that is not the meaning of the Charismatic Renewal. In its most Catholic form, the renewal is a focus on three things:

1. Personal conversion to Jesus Christ

2. A focus on the "gifts" or charisms of the Holy Spirit that are given in the sacramental mysteries of the Church for the upbuilding of the church.

3. Apostolate (mission, diakonia, works of mercy, etc etc).

The power of the renewal is its connection to Vatican II and the renewed focus on the apostolic and "charismatic" vocation of the laity.

As far as I'm concerned, the cultural phenomenon of the "charismatic movement" which can be overidentified with Casio keyboards, contemporary music, being "slain in the Spirit" and, of course "speaking in tongues", is transitory. Its essence as a movement is in its ability to animate the charisms of the laity and the New Evangelization. The Catholic CHurch has rightfully embraced this movement as an authentic renewal movement, but it has had to undergo fundamental shifts in its orientation under the shepherding of the church's pastors.

In my opinion, we need such a renewal in our Byzantine churches - SO LONG AS the goal is to rediscover the three things I listed above in our Byzantine context. We should pray for a charismatic and kerygmatic renewal in our church that is not limited to the laity - but also includes the clergy. The bishop as episkopos and successor to the apostles stands in the tradition of the Upper Room of Pentecost and is thus granted to grace/charism to renew that Pentecostal event within his ecclesia.

I plan to make the "un-Byzantine practice" wink of nine days of prayer and fasting, using the Akathist to the Theotokos after Ascension Thursday in prayerful petition that the Holy Spirit pour out His charisms again on our church and renew and transfigure it. The only thing that will save our church is the work of God's divine energies and our cooperation with them.

Here is the website if anyone is willing to join in.

Canon of the Akathist to the Theotokos

Yours in Christ and the Mother of God,

gordo

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104964
05/11/06 07:11 PM
05/11/06 07:11 PM
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Western Australia
Pavel Ivanovich Offline
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The speaking in tongues was used to identify the 'in crew' in some parishes where the charismatics set up prayer groups. In Perth Western Australia one of the largest groups in a Discalced Carmelite Parish decided to migrate to the eastern coast of the continent as God had told them to do so. The venerable Archbishop of Perth, Sir Lancelot hit the roof and ordered all charismatic groups to have a priest attached to ensure sound Catholic teaching. The Dis. Carmelites got the Arch's knighted boot up the bottom for not being on the ball while all this was happening. I have found that the Charismatic movement has at times led some straight out of the church, as those particular people were reading material was all protestant. I think among the Orthodox in Australia the Antiochians alone can cope with Charismatics the other juristictions are not keen on it at all.

ICXC
NIKA

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104965
05/11/06 07:49 PM
05/11/06 07:49 PM
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Hermitage, PA
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It's not Eastern Catholic, but some of you might be interested in this page:

http://www.stsymeon.org

Dave

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104966
05/11/06 08:43 PM
05/11/06 08:43 PM
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Thousand Oaks, CA
Memo Rodriguez Offline
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Hi David,

Quote
While this is all true from my experience it ends up turning into a clique filled group. That is if you do not experience the same personal experience as everyone else then you seem to be treated as some sort of outcast.
I am not sure which group you are talking about, but it certainly sounds much more "hard line" than what the Renewal is trying to do institutionally.

Of course, it is entirely possible that there are still groups nominally affiliated with the Renewal that will follow this hard line, but it is against our wishes as a movement.

In my group, usage of extraordinary gifts is scarce, one would say, rare. Nobody is treated as an outcast and the same respect and hospitality shown to a long time leader is shown to those who attend for the first time and, perhaps even more significantly, those who attend for the second time.

Quote
From my understanding the only way to show that you have recieved the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is though praying in tongues. If you don't then you haven't.
Well, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a sacrament, so there is no way to show you have received it (with sacraments, you can show your certificate and that is proof enough). Likewise, there is no way to show you have not received it.

Praying in tongues is a sign of nothing until it can be established beyond doubt that your tongues actually come from the Holy Spirit.

Again, that is very hard to do. In my experience, the "gift of tongues" some times comes from within the person either intentionally (as in "faking" it) or unintentionally.

Quote
Also this focus on the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" does create two classes of Christians, those who have had this "Baptism" and those who don't.
Again, this is an old praxis and the Renewal now realizes it was a mistake (or rather, a product of an exagerated focus on some external sings commonly associated with the Baptism in the Holy Spirit experience). These days, this divisive environment can still be found in some Covenant groups, but less and less in Renewal groups.

Quote
They also seem to value some gifts over others, like praying in tongues, which I have yet to see be fully defended scripturally.
Same comment.

Perhaps you need to visit an authentic Renewal group nowadays. We have matured a lot since the olden days.

Shalom,
Memo

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104967
05/11/06 09:42 PM
05/11/06 09:42 PM
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DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic Offline
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Memo,
Thanks for the reply. I will take time to go over your comments but I have to say that even though the leadership of the "Renewal" might say and believe these things it does not always carry over that those in the movement practice what the leadership says or wants.

I am puzzled by one comment you made though.

Quote
Originally posted by Memo Rodriguez:
Praying in tongues is a sign of nothing until it can be established beyond doubt that your tongues actually come from the Holy Spirit.
How can one ever hope to do this? Every Charismatic I have ever met and every thing I have ever read states that praying in tongues is proof of the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit".

By the way, I put this in quotes becuase I believe that the Sacrament of Baptism is the true and only Baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is no pseudo-baptism that many Charismatics speak of because if there is then there are two classes of Christians, those who have it and those who don't.

Quote
Perhaps you need to visit an authentic Renewal group nowadays. We have matured a lot since the olden days.
I won't be doing so any time soon as I am of the school of thought that the gifts that the Charismatics are so keen on were only granted for a limited time in the Church and that time has long since past.

I know that this idea is not popular among those who suppor the movement but it is a valid school of thought and one that a Catholic can hold to.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches #104968
05/12/06 06:53 AM
05/12/06 06:53 AM
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ebed melech Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
I won't be doing so any time soon as I am of the school of thought that the gifts that the Charismatics are so keen on were only granted for a limited time in the Church and that time has long since past.

I know that this idea is not popular among those who suppor the movement but it is a valid school of thought and one that a Catholic can hold to.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice
David,

You've peaked my curiosity - which gifts would that be?

Gordo

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