Catholic Bishop Jerzy Mazur expelled from Russia

Rome (Fides) – On Friday April 19, the Catholic Bishop of Saint Joseph’s diocese in Irkutsk (eastern Siberia), Polish born Mgr Jerzy Mazur was returning from Warsaw to Moscow to resume his episcopal duties in Siberia. At about 3pm, border police at Moscow’s Sheremietovo Two Airport took the Bishop’s passport and made him wait for an hour. When the secretary of the Holy See’s Representative to the Russian Federation, Father Tomasz Grysa, who was meeting Bishop Mazur at the airport, asked the reason for the delay, he was told by a border police official that Polish citizen Jerzy Mazur was on the list of persons no longer allowed to enter Russian Federation territory.

Immediate action was taken at various diplomatic levels by the Holy See Representative to the Russian Federation (RF), the Polish Embassy to the RF, and the Holy See’s Secretariat of State in Rome. In Rome the Secretary of State convoked RF Ambassador to the Holy See, Mr. Vitalij Litvin, who said he knew nothing of the incident. Hopes that the RF foreign minister, following an exchange of diplomatic communication, could influence the decision taken, were dashed. Without any explanation Bishop Mazur had his multi-entry visa, which had not expired, withdrawn and he was declared persona non grata. Diplomats say this is equivalent to being expelled from the country.

At 9pm Bishop Mazur boarded a return flight to Warsaw. This means that the Catholic diocese with the largest extension of territory in the world, has been denied its pastor. This can be considered a violation of the constitutional rights and the freedom of conscience of Russian Catholic citizens, as well as violation of international agreements guaranteeing the right to spiritual assistance.

On April 5 a similar measure was taken with regard to Father Stefano Caprio. The Italian cleric, who serves two Catholic parishes in Russia Vladimir and Ivanovo, had his multi-entry visa seized by border police control at the same Sheremietovo Two Airport without explanation and in an even more unorthodox manner (his passport was returned with the page simply torn out). That day, April 5, Father Caprio was leaving Moscow for Milan. Also in his case, protests made by the Italian Embassy to the Russian Federation and by the Vatican, were to no avail.

Expelling priests and bishops from the country causes serious de-stabilisation of the activities of Catholic structures in Russia. Most of the Catholic clergy and religious in Russia are foreigners sent here from more than twenty different countries to provide spiritual assistance to Russian Catholics deprived of their clergy in the period of atheism. The scarcity of Russian born Catholic priests is due to the fact that at the time of the Soviet Union all the Catholic seminaries in the USSR were closed down, a fact well known to the present day Russian authorities. (Fides 20/4/2002)

Dear Friends,

Let us pray for the conversion of Russia - to a Christian nation believing in charity and love of neighbors.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

I think that the Russian governemnt is going to do the greatest disservice to the Russian Orthodox Church by these anti Catholic actions. People are going to see the state opennly persecuting in all manners the Catholic Church and they, already being suspicious and distrustful of the state, are seriously going to look into the Catholic faith as an alternative. The Orthodox Church in Russia has always played second fiddle to the state, whether it be Tsarist or Communist and this has lead to an cesaro papist relationship between the two. The state looks on the Church to support its goals and interest while the Church expects the state to take care of all "dissidents".
I really would be hasty to call Russia anything close to converted to any faith as of yet. Before the revolution, for instance, there were nearly 50,000 Orthodox parishes in Russia. Now, a decade after communisms fall, the number is still under 20,000. A lot of people therefore must still be away from Orthodoxy. The Church however has really from what I hear been poor on evangelizing from a grassroots level. THey merely expect everyone who is Russian will automatically belong to them by right of birth. THis old fashioned view of things will deffinatly put the church of Russia behind in any of its future conversion hopes.
However this anti Catholic persecutuin is really going to play bad for Russia in the world media. She claims freedom of religion but yet refuses to grant in to Catholics. People will find a way to convert to the Catholic Church if they want to, regardless if it is driven underground by the state and its Church. Noone can stop these as an inevidalbe fact of occurence. If Russia wants to avoid a massive amount of believers then she should quickly reunite with Rome so as to avoid what will be the inevidable.

Robert K.

The majority of Russians--of whatever religious tradition-- seem to have converted to a religion alien to Christianity: Consumerism! (Even if there still isn't a great deal, or the ability, to "consume.")

Welcome to the world of hard-core facts.

"There is nothing more stubborn than a fact."

Abdur

Most people are not concerned at all with the rights and freedoms of the Russian people, but only of their own rights and freedoms to do as they please. They think everything Western must be good and their model of society is universal.

The Russian people have an elected government who have decided to act on behalf of the people. They are doing their best to protect their country from all sorts of crack-pot religions imported from the sick West. Oh, tears roll down my cheak that the Mormons, JW's, and the Salvation Army are having their "rights" abused. As far as I'm concerned they have only one right in Russia, to leave.

Recent actions in Russian by the Vatican were done soley for the political value - to teach the Russians the cost of not cooperating.

Well, about as many tears roll down my cheek when I hear a Latin was booted out of Russia. Perhaps they could be better used to fill in the thining ranks in the West anyway.

Dear OOD,

How ecumenical of you to cry so much!

Can I send you some Kleenexes? Or would you like a handkerchief?

Orthodox bishops could be sent home from their Western European home bases, but democracy reigns supreme there, not an enduring dictatorship that continues to support the dominant Church as it did in Tsarist and Soviet times.

If the Orthodox Church in Russia is so insecure about its position, membership etc., then, by all means, use the state and its police resources.

Alex

[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

OOD wrote:
"The Russian people have an elected government who have decided to act on behalf of the people. They are doing their best to protect their country from all sorts of crack-pot religions imported from the sick West."

Also, if the Russian people through its democaticly elected government has enacted a law, as they have, protecting freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, their authorities should respect it.

Please, don't loose your optic: This man is a Bishop trying to reach the flock entrusted to him, and for which he is responsible.

It doesn´t matter if we like the particular religion chosen by each Russian citizen, it doesn't matter whether we consider such religion apostolic, or even if that particular religion is Christian at all. The Russian people have taken their decision: Freedom of conscience.

We, Chistians, have to be a model of tolerance towards other Christians and non-Christians. But that doesn't mean we should't make other people about the difference

I hope you all are having a nice Great Fast or Pascha.

Dear Hector,

OOD is a very spiritual fellow.

And he hasn't said anything mean to me for several weeks

Our subtle approach seems to be working and I think he is mellowing out a bit . . .

Alex

Alex:

Sorry! I wasn't trying to be rude. I apologize to OOD if I sounded that way. I was only trying to make a point. It's just that sometimes I see things from a legalistic POV. Also, some comments sounded a little bit insensitive to the Catholic fellows in Russia, whose Bishop is Msgr. Mazur, who have been denied of the pastoral care of their Bishop.

I have the best impression of all the people here in the Forum. Even if I don't agree with some opinions, I acknowledge that you just express your ideas.

Dear Hector,

No problem. Actually, I wasn't really defending OOD .

Someone who is so much on the attack, as OOD is, has no need of defenders!

But he can be nice, if he wants to be!

Yours in Our Lady of Guadalupe,

Alex

Alex (and Hector),

I certainly appreciate your humor and thought of some humorous replies that I'm sure would have at least got you to smirk.

But then I thought, life is just to short and often finds people only getting serious at the end of it. I'll leave the humor for another time.

My above post was just an effort to bring light to an alternative view.

Yes, everyone has a God given right to believe as they wish. But might I suggest that Russia receives undeserved attention in so much as there are numerous pagan countries (ie. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, and Iran) that administer the death penalty for converstion and should be the focus of any sincere appeal to human rights. So as soon as the worst offenders are dealt with I will not take your concern over Russia seriously.

Dear OOD,

Are you sure about Jordan? I'm aware of the others, but I didn't think Jordan could be numbered among them...

ME,

Frankly I'm not sure if you are murdered for conversion from Islam in Jordan. Strike Jordan for now.

et al,

This Russian website may help everyone aquire a Russian persepctive on the world.

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/index.htm

Aye yes, we sure do get a very "interesting" look inside Russian culture and the Russian spirit in general.

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/papainvasion.htm

THis spirit seems to be more a compination of nationalistic paranoia at times then anything else. It looks as if we Catholics will have to hold our breaths a little while longer for an Orthodox reunion with us.

Robert K.

Dear Orthodoxy or Death,

I am not sure I agree with you, that the denial of entrance to Bishop Jerzy, was a "defense" of the people. On the other hand, it does seem clear that the erection of the dioceses, was done without the approval of the government, which now sees fit to teach the Vatican a lesson, in the limits of its authority.

At one time, even with Catholic monarchs and Catholic countries, the Vatican acted more closely in consultation with the government of the place, and such governments even had significant say in the erection (or suppression) of dioceses, and the appointment of bishops. Perhaps by returning some of this traditional spirit of co-operation with the legitimate civil government of the place, all this might have been avoided?

Elias

Robert K.

Given that your faith is not Orthodox, it is good to see you no longer commune in an Orthodox Church - for your own spiritual safety. Having said that, it would be even better to see you return to Her having acquired the faith.

And you would be paranoid of the West too if you suffered so many invasions and assaults as Russia has.

Heiromonk Elias, et al,

While I certainly do not completely agree with everything Russia does, I disagree significantly more with what America does.

You say Russia oppresses the freedom of her people to choose a faith? I say the West values nothing higher than all her own so-called freedoms which are in fact nothing more than a sophisticated form of slavery. Slavery to the passions.

While those in the West are so worried about their freedom to go into Russia and do as they please, caring nothing for the people themselves, their sons and daughters are being recruited by Branch Davidians or waiting for the arrival of the "Mother Ship" in California.

Truly, Americans value nothing higher than their own pluralistic, self-satisfying, indulgent, materialistic, satan-worshipping society. It should be the hope of every Orthodox Christian to pray the Russians can remain Orthodox in a world such as this.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

It seems to me that it is time for the Pope to consecrate a Russian Roman Catholic National as Bishop for the various Russian Dioceses since obviously any non-Russian National will not be allowed to return once they have left.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Orthodoxy or Post-Nasal Drip has spoken again.

Oh, thank you for another dose of Russian chauvinism!

Most Catholics in present-day Russia are descended of those deported there by the fearless Josef Stalin. They were ripped away from their homes in Poland and Ukraine and sent off to work in forced labor camps.

So now, their descendants should not be allowed to worship in the church of their choice, but they should have YOUR brand of Orthodoxy shoved down their throats.

Isn't it something that the Catholic Church in Poland stood up to Communism while the Orthodox Church acquiesed to it, and looked the other way when six million Ukranians were starved to death?

You have no credibility.

Forgive me, since I do not know how to formally address you, so I will just say...

Dear Hieromonk Elias,

I'm afraid I must point out the bogosity of your position.

This expulsion was nothing more than another example of caesaropapism.

The integration of the Church into the affairs of the state as a matter of law has, IMHO, born nothing but bad fruit. A Church that cooperates with the state eventually just gets co-opted by the state.

I thought the Church represented the Heavenly Kingdom on Earth, rather than a society looking for an earthly kingdom. Our Lord Jesus rejected the earthly crowns offered to Him.

jw10631,



Could you please show me your source for this information? I always thought they were decendents of the captured prisoners from the invasions of the Nazi's, French, Polish, Lithuanians, Hungarians, and Austrians.



No, they can worship as they please, each and every day. But perhaps they should consider joining the Church.



Interesting, the majority of the poles were Orthodox until the Latins forced their religion down their throats. As far as Orthodox Church acquiesing, you obviously don't know the history of the ROCOR and have not heard how 750,000 Orthodox Serbs acquiesed to death at the hands of Latin bishops and priests in joint partnership with the Croatian Ustashi.

Dear OOD,

While I don't like people talking angrily to one another here, as is occurring now, I would just like to point out that we are not talking about the ROCOR, much persecuted by communism itself.

As for acquiescing, both Orthodox and Catholic Churches are guilty of that at one time or another in this century.

My grandfather, for example, became Russian Orthodox after a spell in a prison, as did others.

He returned to the Catholic Church when he arrived in Canada.

He and others like him shared one thing in common, not hatred for the Russian Church, but anger at the Vatican that did nothing to speak up on their behalf.

Finger-pointing is, well, pointless.

Alex

Alex,

Of course, and I am by no means taking the postion that Russia as a country is harmless and guiltless.

My effort here is to simply point out that far to often Westerners have this superiority complex. And as far as I'm concerned, they should feel the most inferior.

That's all.

If anyone doesn't like what the Russians do in THEIR country then they should move there, become citizens, and vote.

Most Poles - Orthodox?

No way. That sounds like propaganda from the KGB.

Do you really want to argue over who did worse to who? Us Poles are stubborn, Mr. Orthodoxy.

Perhaps all the Catholics in Russia should just leave - and make Mr. Orthodoxy happy.

Then the Bible Belt from the South will just swoop in and convert thousands of Russians. Alexey will be happy though. None of them would be "Catholic".

That's all. Just a simple point that Westerns are inferior. Are you making a joke OOD? If not, what is it that you believe makes us westerners so inferior?

Posted by Mr.Death:"Could you please show me your source for this information? I always thought they were decendents of the captured prisoners from the invasions of the Nazi's, French, Polish, Lithuanians, Hungarians, and Austrians."

Actually, my wife's Ukrainian Catholic babba could tell you some horror stories of what her and her family had to endure at the hands of St.Stalin.

Columcille

Dear Columcille,

Stalin could only be a saint if the devil ever inaugurates a process of canonization for his devoted servants.

Otherwise, we're really on the horns of a dilemma here . . .

Alex

Dear Friends,

May I make a suggestion here?

Perhaps we've responded to OrthodoxyorDeath enough on this?

His words may not have been the most judicious, I agree, but he is entitled, as is any Orthodox Christian, to defend Russia and even its recent actions in expelling the Latin bishop.

We sometimes go 'overboard' in the language and examples we use in defending our positions.

I know I've done that at times too .

OrthodoxyorDeath is a very spiritual person who is very loyal to his Orthodox Church.

We may not agree with him, but I've always admired his high ideals - remarkable for so young a man.

In other words, can we lay off him already?

Alex

This subject has come up in other discussion groups I belong to where there are Russian participants. Apparently, according to some of the replies, one of the main reasons for the reaction is that the Roman Catholic identity of the diocese that this particular Roman Catholic Bishop is head of is the Chinese name for the area rather than the Russian Name.
The Russians are highly insulted and interpert it as just another incident where the Roman Catholic Church is purposely initiating policies to separate another area of Rus (hows that Alex ?) from a Russian identity to cause discord and thus separate it from Russia as they have done in other areas of the land of Rus.
I pass this on with no personal comment. Just info from another source.

OrthoMan

Dear Orthoman,

That's fine!

Some of my best friends are "Russ."

God bless,

Alex

Orthodoxy or Death,
The solution is simple! Since you love and defend Russia so much. Then why not emmigrate there?
Stephanos I

Stephanos I,

Now you sound like Buba from Louisiana or Pat Buchanan. “Emigrate here or there” if you “think this or that” is the method of swindlers. OOD made specific points, if you disagree with them make your case, don't invoke the tried and tired “go back to such and such” argument.

People are correct—Russia has deteriorated culturally. They are under assault by all the cigarette billboards and advertising agencies imported from the west. They have become a dumping ground for western “goods” (which not many can afford anyway) and people are becoming weary. I also do not see what is wrong with the proposition that America (with its 60 what % divorce rate) has much to teach Russia by way of culture. In Russia, the number of women killed by their husbands and boyfriends almost tripled from 5,300 to an astounding 15,000 annually in the first three years of their “opening” to western culture and capitalism. According to “Newsweek” (9/2/96), “Prague and Budapest now rival Bangkok and Manila as hubs for the collection of children to serve visiting pedophiles.”

As one political scientist noted:
“Descending upon the unhappy societies of Eastern Europe and Russia are the Hare Krishnas, Mormons, Moonies, and Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahais, rightist Christian evangelicals, self-improvement hucksters, instant success peddlers, and other materialistic spiritualist scavengers who prey upon the deprived and the desperate, offering solace in the next world or the promise of wealth and success in this one.”— Dr. Michael Parenti (scholar and author).

I might not agree with OOD but I can see where he is coming from.

God Bless You All

Aklie Semaet

This kind of thing had to be expected, I think.

ROFL!!!

Even God must be laughing at this! Whatever Americans do on the streets of America, Russian do ten times worst on the streets of Russia.

At least we don't steal body organs out of people and then sell them on the blackmarket -- and if we do the people stealing the organs are from RUSSIA.

Russia has got to be one of the most sinful places on this earth. The government is about as corrupt as you can get - their people aren't far behind their government or mob (that is if the two can be distinguihed).

But maybe the Russian Church is like the Russian mob --- Cleric: "hey you come back here and we're going to cut off your f*****! Arms and ears." --- Another Cleric: "father hurry you'll be late for Divine Liturgy!" --- Cleric: "coming son."

Aklie,

I don't agree at all. And I'm far from the biggest flag waving American. And very well may one day in the distant future leave the country.

But the Russian are the one's bringing their violent, corrupt, culture to America. Oh at least a 7 or 8 years back I had a good connection to buy assault rifles from the Russian Mob. Their still here by the way. And the Russian Mob is taking over Americas orginized crime. They are highly violent and have zero respect for human life only their thug culture. At least the La Costra Nostra had some cultural degree of respect for the lives of the average by-passer on the streets of America. The Russian will get their hands in whatever they can - child porn whatever.

The only reason the Russians didn't have the level of violence they have now under the Communist is because the Communist would break your f***** legs if you got out of hand. This same culture of violence, no due process, corruption in the hands of a few, and missing persons abductions - is what gave rise to the modern day Russia when it was let loose and free.

I know a person that was doing buisness in Russia before - had the mob bust in his hotel room in the middle of night while he was sleeping, questioning him and warning him. He and his buisness partners had to hire foriegn Eastern Europeans from outside of Moscow to stand guard with assault rifles. He eventualy droped his buisness enterprise and left Russia - - - by the way he himself is of Eastern European descent - if it matters any.

Thank you no - I'll live under American blue skies any day of the week, before I'll live under the cold Siberian criminal winds.

Maximus,

You seem to be equating the present and difficult situation of Russians with Russian character in general.

This idea that all the violence in present day Russia results from Russian character being “let lose” with the fall of the Stalinist system is without merit. I wonder why no serious scholar who studies Russia has ever advanced this idea. It is only the illiterate mono-lingual uncultured CNN/MSNBC blockhead pundits who hold such viewpoints.

The problems in Russia stem from working people being pushed into a situation where they have not been paid for many months or years (working for "free&#8217). Where housing subsidies have been cut, full employment no longer guaranteed, health care unavailable and a general breakdown of civil society. In Russia real income has shrunk by 30 to 40 percent. The living standard is 1/3 what it used to be in the late 80's. The suicide rate in society as a whole has risen by 50% from previous levels. Suicides within the military and deaths by overdose have risen by an astounding 80% from previous years (Toronto Star, 11/5/95). If 15,000 guys tossed their wives/girlfriends out of the window in the first few years of capitalist restoration I do not see how communist could have kept them from doing that.

If Russians are stealing body parts, it is to sell them to earn bread in these difficult times. That is not to justify these wrongs but just to understand them. These are trying time for the Russian Orthodox. Ultimately I agree with Robert K. when he wrote that all these anti-Catholic actions on the part of the state are going to do is end up making them look more attractable to people as an alternative. Russian Orthodoxy can not depend on the state to do its work. The Russian Orthodox Church needs to rely on its arsenal of 1,000 years of spiritual development. Apply its talents and stop worrying about canonizing Czars and past feudalist all the time. Stop trying to construct myopic histories and nostalgia about the “biggest Orthodox Empire”, etc. It needs to revitalize not return. We should all be praying for them to be able to meet the spiritual needs of its people in these desperate times.

I just respect OOD for the fact that he has refused to accept this idea that Americans are somehow "special' or "more important' than everyone else. But OOD please don't drop American Super Patriotism for Greater Russianism.

God be with you all.

Aklie Semaet

[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

I'd say that'd a be fair.

It was not us in the West who ushered in communism whole-sale. That would be the European East. It's not Americans who rip Albainian women and force young Albainian boys to eat Serbian newspapers - that would be Serbians - of their prestine Serbian Orthodox Christianity no less.

The West has it's problems, America has it's problems. But the Russians ain't the Japanese, and the Japanese rebuilt themselves something special after we [Americans] droped an atomic bomb on them.

The Russians? We've given them - the American tax payer - billions of dollars, and all that happens is their thug government spreads it out in government officials pockets. The Russians can't even get their own sailors out of the water from drowning they prefer to let them drown. The Russians character is in the ditch as far as I'm concerned. At least Americans had enough character to push back the Serbs - interesting crowd that is.

Many in the world wish to blame America and the West for all their problems, but I'm afraid the Gulags was not invented under the American character. That was an is an invention of the Russian character.

We shouldn't be more like the Russians. They should be more like us. -- If anyone needs to be like anyone.

Dear Maximus,

My family suffered a bit under the Russians, so when I defend them, everyone's ears should go up .

We must draw a distinction between the faithful Russian Orthodox and the Russian state, whether Tsarist or Communist.

Now by comparison, the Tsarist state was a pussycat and the soviets were real monsters.

But the soviets weren't religious and they persecuted the Russian church more than any other - they practically annihilated it.

The Russians have no better defender than Our Lady herself at Fatima and other places where she constantly shows her love for Russia and proclaims that it will be the place where her message will be glorified the most.

Alex

But then that goes to my point Alex. The Russian character has been shaped by Soviet Communism - yes? I can't see how it cannot be. And another thing is we no that the Soviet Communist never let the real facts about their crime rate be known to the rest of the world. I just have an amazing time believing that my choice of which freaken mall to go to with Pacific Bay wear or Gap clothing is what has precipitated the current cultural problems in Russia. America has had American values for along time and our government isn't stealing jewlery and diamonds from out of the national vaults and selling them over here in the US through the Russian mob. But then the US doesn't have miles of under ground vaults full of diamonds, rings, gold chains and ropes, and gem encrusted jewlery boxes - wonder where the Soviets got these current "national" riches. Goes back to my thug theory.

The peseant learned from the president.

Dear Maximus,

I don't disagree with you!

The Ukrainians "over there" are equally like that as well, comes from years under soviet communist rule.

I remember when we had KGB agents at the legislature, bodyguards for a soviet representative.

When I was passing them in the hall, one of them, a woman, came up to me and asked me what my business was there.

I could feel her cold, steel eyes try to look past mine and down into my soul.

They would just as much kill one as say "Hello."

And that can't be discarded right away - it will take years.

But I think we need to show compassion on them and on what their Christians suffered.

The person in charge of reviewing the martyrdoms of Christians in Russia said that he could "understand" the crucifixions of priests etc., but what sent shivers up his spine was the practice of the KGB to place naked Orthodox Christians on ice packs and pour water over them, then sit down and watch them freeze to death.

Alex

You have to look hard to find a soul in people like this.

Dear Maximus,

In the torturers, yes. As for the martyrs, may they pray for us.

The Archbishop of Simferopil in Crimea was actually nailed to the doors of his Iconostasis on a Good Friday - upside down.

May he pray for us!

Alex

Yes, that is horrifying. Do you not agree then that these are the people that should be recognized and honored instead of the royal family?

p.s. please clean your mailbox. I have been trying to send you a message for three days now but you are too full.

God Bless You ALL

Aklie Semaet

Dear Aklie,

That I am too full of it is something others too remind me of regularly!

Actually, I am, ahem, a monarchist and am active in a monarchist organization. I am also a supporter of the Ethiopian Emperor's return - sorry but I am.

The Royal Family of Russia had a cult of veneration almost immediately after its murder by the Bolsheviks.

They were a holy family. If people were canonized on the basis of their political successes only, then that would be a problem.

As someone of Ukrainian background, I am the last person to be seen in support of the canonization of a Tsar and his family.

But I've read about Tsar Nicholas' progressive cultural views about freeing national groups from the grip of colonial Russia, something the Bolsheviks reversed immediately upon gaining ascendancy.

Tsar Nicholas was not his father or most Tsars. That perhaps was the problem, the Russians liked and related well to a strong, autocratic leader.

Whatever his faults, Nicholas was personally holy and gentle and loyal to his wife and family.

He was killed by the enemies of Christianity and that alone makes him a martyr. The business of him being a repressive symbol was something the West swallowed to somehow learn to live with its guilt at thinking the Bolsheviks wouldn't do what they said they would do and what everyone with common sense knew they would do - to the Royal Family and everyone else who fell victim to their system.

The fact is that God Himself has approved of the cult of the Royal Martyrs. Russians returning to their Orthodox Church tend to pick up on devotion to St Nicholas Romanov almost immediately, sporting the two-headed Romanov eagle pin, as did Avdonin, the fellow who found their relics.

You can get posters of the tsar at most kiosks in Moscow.

His memory haunts the souls of Russians, including the Governor of Ekaterinburg at the time of the discovery of their relics, Boris Yeltsin.

The Russians needed to put that horrible episode behind themselves.

And they did this when the son of the man who engineered the Regicide itself, later a Russian Admiral, turned in his father's diaries (his father being referred to in St Nicholas Romanov's diary as the "dark man") to shed greater light on the actual events of that dark day in history.

The many, many Russians and others who venerate the memory of the Royal Family can't be wrong.

The Ethiopians venerate St Pontius Pilate (Feast: June 25) - and they do so without worrying too much about what others might think.

And I've also heard of miracles occurring through the veneration of Haile Selassie.

No one is asking anyone to venerate this or that saint or holy person.

But I think we should see, as Socrates said, the "good" in why people venerate the saints they do.

You have problems sending me an e-mail? I've cleared my e-mail and look forward to hearing from you!

Selam!

Alex

Dear Alkie Semael,
"Sound like Buba from Louisianna or Pat Buchanan?"Hec no they're much too liberal for me!
Stephanos I

[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Stephanos I ]

Selam Alex,

I already knew that you were a monarchist. But I don't know what you mean about supporting the "emperors' (he declared himself he was never coronation) return to Ethiopia. I am also not sure what it is that you support about monarchism. Is it a view, often reflected in sci-fi genres like Kevin Costner in “The Postman”[post-apocalyptic] or Frank Herbert's DUNE [more than 10,000 years in the future], that feudalism is the most efficient system? Most monarchists have religious considerations, but I saw a post where you supported the returning of the Afghan king who is not a Christian.

In 1999 an Addis Ababa a popular poll was conducted to vote on who were the two most influential Ethiopians of the 20th Century—Halie Gebresellasie (the Olympian gold medalist) and Halie Sellasie were chosen. Especially since Rastefarians have been moving to Ethiopia en masse they have fostered an atmosphere of more myopia for the Imperial past. High School students are putting his posters on their bedroom wall (next to Bob Marley and 2 Pac) to the dismay of their parents. He has gained a renewed popularity. That is just in the context of these difficult times that people all over the world are facing. Everyone is nostalgic these days. I still remember the mass demonstrations that were taking place in Russia in the early 1990's with hundreds of thousands of demonstrators holding pictures of "Uncle Joe' (Stalin). Doing the same with Halie Sellasie or Tsar Nicholas is in the same vein. My motto is the same as that 1980's rap song from Public Enemy “Don't Believe the Hype.”

I am not against recognizing monarchs in the 21st Century; to the contrary I support it for cultural and symbolic reasons. But I support it in the same tradition of recognizing Iroquois Confederacy, Kalahari Hunter-Gatherers, Navajo nation, etc.

I fully support the return of the Ethiopian emperor so long as he doesn't bring his feudal property system along with him. I don't mind if he greets and receives the credentials of foreign diplomats or takes cute poses on T.V. with the U.N Secretary General. I don't mind if he visits schools and gives candy to kids or roles down the street in that ugly purple Mercedes Benz. So long as he has no right to pass laws and has no power to control the Orthodox Church I have no problem with him returning and being King. Other than cultural symbolism you know its FAR left field for me

So Tsar Nicholas had progressive “cultural views” with regard to his “prison house of nations?” That's great, but the Bolsheviks did not reverse that…Stalin implementing that a few years later beginning in his native country of Georgia, after he killed, imprisoned and exiled enough of the Left Opposition (along with Christians and others; read novels like Victor Serge's “Twilight in this Century” to see the interesting composition of prisoners in the Stalinist Gulag labor camps).

Being forced to praise the Tsar because he remained faithful to his wife says more about the degeneration from Christian morals in our society than much else. Also that does not make him a saint, some brutes just happen to love their wives. The FBI admitted that Italian Mafia boss John Gatti was never caught cheating or even flirting in all its years of surveillance on him. Tsar Nicholas was no Vladmir (980-1015).

The thing that troubles me is that when I see all the lists of "candidates' for canonization in Russia today most of them are more associated with trying to vindicate feudalism than with honoring martyrs and normal Russian Christians that made contributions to Russia's spiritual heritage. That orientation is also what bothers me about Bishop Jerzy Mazur's expulsion from Russia.

p.s. I was referring to your byzcath mailbox being full not your e-mail, but I sent you one of those too…

God be with you

Aklie Semaet

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

I seriously doubt that. Only card carrying Nazis qualify as being to the right of Buchanan and Buba. I know you are a Christian and don't fall in that category

Let's thicken the plot a wee bit:

1-May-2002 -- EWTNews Brief

RUSSIAN PAPER SEES PUTIN GAMBIT IN BISHOP'S
EXPLUSION

MOSCOW, (CWNews.com) -- A leading Russian
newspaper has advanced the theory that President Vladimir Putin ordered the expulsion of a Catholic bishop in a roundabout effort to advance the prospects of a visit to Russia by Pope John Paul II.

The newspaper, Nezavisimaya Gazeta, suggested that the Russian president decided to revoke the visa of Bishop Jerzy Mazur because he was confident the Russian Orthodox Church would be blamed for the move. He reasoned that Orthodox Patriarch Alexei II would then be under pressure to make some concession to the Vatican, to smooth over the situation.

The Orthodox prelate has, to date, rejected proposals for a papal visit to Moscow. President Putin, on the other hand, has indicated that he would be pleased by a papal visit. But the Vatican has said that the Holy Father will not visit Russian against the wishes of the Moscow Patriarch.

The conspiratorial theory advanced by Nezavisimaya Gazeta has been proven accurate in at least one respect. Despite the public denials set forth by the Moscow Patriarchate, most observers do believe that the expulsion of Bishop Mazur was due to pressure from the Orthodox Church.

In a related development, 55,000 Russians have signed a message to the Vatican, protesting the establishment of four Catholic dioceses in the country. The statement was circulated at conferences held on Sunday, April 28, in 20 Russian provinces, under the auspices of the Russian People's Party and the Union of Orthodox Citizens.

Gennadiy Raykov, a member of the Russian parliament, told the media that the signatories see the new dioceses as the Catholic Church's "spiritual expansion, which may turn out to be irreversible."

--------------------------------------------------

ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome

Date: 2002-04-29

Anti-Catholic Protests in Russia Fail to Draw Big Crowds

Few Join Demonstrations in Moscow and St. Petersburg

MOSCOW, APRIL 29, 2002 (Zenit.org).- Protests organized Sunday in Russia against the Catholic Church attracted relatively few participants, ZENIT and other news agencies found.

The most important meeting, an initiative of the People´s Deputies Party and Union of Orthodox Citizens, was to take place in Moscow, where only several hundred gathered to protest the "Catholic expansion."

The demonstration was held in front of the monument to Sts. Cyril and Methodius. Carrying icons and postcards, the protesters criticized the "Vatican´s intrusion in Orthodox lands." One of the posters warned against the arrival of "pederasts."

The organizers of the event published a statement in which they criticized the Holy See´s decision to create four dioceses in Russia.

When announcing John Paul II´s decision to create the dioceses, the Vatican published a statement in which it recognized the right of Catholics in Russia to count on the pastoral service of their pastors, and the duty of every Christian to proclaim the Gospel. The statement denied that the decision was an attempt to proselytize against the Orthodox Church.

At John Paul II´s request, institutions of the Catholic Church have been contributing to the maintenance of priests of the Russian Orthodox Church. Yet recently, Catholic Bishop Jerzy Mazur of the Diocese of St. Joseph in Irkutsk, and an Italian priest, Father Stefano Caprio, were expelled from Russia without any explanations by the authorities.

Protests on Sunday were organized in some 20 Russian cities. An Agence France-Presse correspondent counted about 50 protesters in St. Petersburg, who called for the reinforcement of traditional religions in Russia, which they identified as Orthodoxy, Islam, Buddhism and Judaism.

Signatures were also collected throughout Russia, in protest against the Catholic presence. The signatures will be sent to the Vatican´s apostolic nuncio in Moscow.

In statements to Interfax agency, Guennadi Raikov, one of the organizers and leader of the People´s Deputies Party, acknowledged today that out of a total Russian population of 144 million, 70% of whom are Orthodox, only 50,000 protest signatures were collected against the Catholic Church.

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Amado Guerrero ]

And this:

ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome

Date: 2002-04-26

Russian Intellectuals Protest "Soviet Era"-Type Expulsions of Clerics


MOSCOW, APRIL 26, 2002 (Zenit.org).- A group of Russian intellectuals and writers published a letter of protest over the expulsion of Catholic Bishop Jerzy Mazur of Irkutsk, and Italian priest Stefano Caprio.

In the open letter published Thursday in the newspaper Nezavisimaia Gazeta, the signatories criticize the lack of credible reasons for the measures, which they describe as "worthy of the Soviet era."

The letter is signed, among others, by Boris Vasiliev, one of the most renowned Russian writers, by poetess Rimma Kazakova, and by Serghiei Filatov, president of the Council of Russian Intellectuals and former assistant of Boris Yeltsin.

The measures taken against the two Catholic clergymen have sparked protests in the Russian media, among political observers, and in the government, as well as in the Catholic bishops´ conference and the Holy See, Vatican Radio reported.

Cho! Aklie!



"Buba" is "Bubba" and he ain't from Louisiana, he's from Texas (Shreveport, for instance), Oklahoma, Arkansas, Mississippi, or any other number of Northern states. If you're talking about Louisiana, you mean Boudreaux. The things we have to put up with.

I've also met quite a few bubbas a lot friendlier than you yankees, and just because they've had some hard times doesn't make them equivalent to Nazis. You'll bend over backwards to qualify your statements about Russians and then insult your own living down South.

Sometimes I like to log in to read some couillon up the bayou talking bad about Bubba or Boudreaux. I've been up there and you don't have joie de vivre, which is why I stay down here.

In fact, why don't all you anti-Southern folks make a trip. You could meet a real live Bubba, redneck, good ol' boy, Boudreaux, etc. and learn the difference. If you're smatte, mabee you can go to the Big Easy and learn some Yat. I prefer to visit the bayou and go to a fais do do and ecouter some chank a chank.

Au revoir mes amis.

By the way, don't come down here and ask to eat pirogie. You may end up getting a canoe on your plate.

If you're looking for Nazi's, I heard of a rally the last time I was up in Michigan.

I forgot to add that perhaps the ill temper expressed on this board is because you've all been eating that tasteless cardboard you call food.

Come down to Houston to my house for a crawfish or shrimp boil (the mud bugs haven't been good for the last few seasons, so it would probably be shrimp) or some etouffee. Give up that Yankee Chank and come down for the real thing.

With regard to Amado's post above which says the whole expulsion affair was a Putin Gambit...

I have consistently read for the past 5,8,10 years that the pope wishes to visit Russia but will not do so without an invitation from the ROC. There have been negotiations, political manuevering, press releses, ect, ect.

He seems like that person we all know who keeps trying to invite himself over to your house.

Cizinec,

Mellow out, I was not trying to bash the South. I will not deny that the South is better than the North culturally speaking. But please realize that I am not a northerner, I am a WEST SIEEYDER! I was making fun of Bubba (excuse Buba) well…because he's Bubba. I know that the South is the only place in America to find a decent American woman

When I travel abroad and am reminded how the Americans have no culture and hospitality principles I am happy to remind them not to confuse the whole country with New York and if they traveled South they should be in for a surprise. You are also correct about the food. About 70% of Californians sadly subsist on fast food. But do not get too arrogant; remember you trail behind us by eons when it comes to wine

May God Be With You

Aklie Semaet