Yes but most of the time, the ones who make conversions of Orthodox people in Russia are Roman Latin Rite Catholics and not Eastern Catholics.
Recently I had a conversation with an Argentinian lay man who's a member of a catholic "pastoral group" with the conduct of a protestant preacher. he will go to Russia in July, and I asked him why the catholic church was proselityzing if the ROC was an Apostolic Church and had the right to evangelize the Russians. He answered that the ROC was not a true church, and a lot of things like that. Unfortunately, some Latin Catholics despise the Eastern Church and think that Easrtern Christians are archaic, anti-modern and say that they must enter to the "modern world". It was very disapointing.

I didn't believe that the Catholic church was doing proselitism, but now I know that this can be true.

Maybe the RC receive the Russians in the Latin church because the Russian Greek Catholic Church hasn't an organized hierarchy.

Dear Remie,

Yes, I would strongly protest RC incursions into any Orthodox country.

And this is a complex situation, to be sure.

But, in addition to proselytism, there appears to be the matter of "trendiness" among people in Ukraine and Russia.

For some, joining a western Church is "being modern" or "going western" as a whole.

There are many reasons, all compelling, for people in Ukraine and Russia, who are largely unchurched, to become RC or Protestant or one of the many other groups competing for membership there now.

But I do believe that Rome's move now is simply to respond to the fact of greater numbers of its faithful.

I don't like this business of the Byz. Catholic Church not being able to have its own eparchies.

Rome wouldn't dream of establishing them, for the Moscow Patriarchate just MIGHT say those Eastern Catholics, masquerading as Eastern Orthodox, are at it again!

But if the Latin Church does the same thing, well then that's different since if a Russian or a Ukie becomes RC then they must really have a call to do so!

But the fact of the existence of the Latin Church and the fact that it is expanding for whatever reasons must be simply acknowledged, as must the fact that not all the reasons people have for joining it are "bad."

Alex

Dear Alex:

I read that some upper-class Russian ladies in the 18-19th century used to go to services at a church attached to the French Embassy in St. Petersburg.

They regarded Russian Priests as ignorant and felt that it was so much more civilized to be able to confess to an educated priest in French.

I don't know if they ever founded a particular church themselves, or if it was just some sort of historic aberration.

I do know that there was a time when the Russian nobility used the French language more extensively they used Russian.


defreitas

CHRIST IS RISEN!

[and when he was in Ukraine, Met. Theodosious only went to Moscow Patriarchate places. OCA is still very much connected with Moscow. Russia. No offense ment to Anastasios -ukrainiancatholic ]

And the reason for that would have nothing to do with the fact that the other two 'Orthodox Churches' in the Ukrainian are not recognized as canonical by any canonical autocephalous or automonous Orthodox Church in the world.
Tell me, when the Pope or the Ukrainian Catholic Cardinal visit foreign lands do the include non canonical self proclaimed Roman Catholic Churches on their itinerary? How many SPPX, Redemptorist, etc. churches do they visit during their stay?

OrthoMan

Dear Defreitas,

Yes, absolutely!

Russian aristocracy preferred to use French, especially when they argued!

So many literary words of both Ukrainian and Russian are taken from the French.

Many Orthodox students from Ukraine went to Paris to study and brought back a myriad of cultural and linguistic influences, including Latin devotions such as the Immaculate Conception, the Joys and Sorrows of Our Lady (St Dmytry of Rostov), and a number of others that still exist in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

Much of the impetus for union with Rome by the Orthodox Bishops in 1596 was also because they admire and looked up to Western European culture (and the Jesuits) so much.

Alex

Dear Orthoman,

XPUCTOC BOCKPECE!

How was your Pascha?

Mine is about to get more interesting . . .

I regret UC's remark about the Russian Patriarch and the OCA thing.

But, having said that, I'm going to have to disagree with your comparison of the "uncanonical" Ukrainian Churches with the SSPX et al.

It's not really the same thing. But we'll agree to disagree.

And I'm not just picking on "canonical" Orthodoxy here, but the RC Church as well.

If pulling out of "union with Moscow" makes a Ukrainian "uncanonical" where do I sign up?

And when did "World Orthodoxy" ever make canonical the uncanonical actions of Moscow to take what legitimately belonged to Kyiv (all right, "Kiev" for those who still think Ukraine is part of Russia)?

And if the Ukrainian Orthodox have made albeit stumbling efforts to reestablish their autocephalous existence, as have other "uncanonical" Orthodox Churches, well then "canonical" be darned!

The fact that Rome doesn't recognize them either - well, that is no credit on Rome. It doesn't recognize too much of what went on or goes on in the Ukrainian Catholic Church, martyrs or not.

And the Moscow Patriarchate called itself a "Patriarchate" for years before World Orthodoxy officially recognized it as such, as an autocephalous, self-governing Patriarchate.

Did the question of its "canonicity" ever arise as a result?

But when it comes to us poor Ukies, then the RC and ROC is all over us for canonicity while "World Orthodoxy" parrots back uncritically the perspective of the MP - supported by Rome.

I thought the MP was on bad terms with Rome. Perhaps that too is, well, propaganda.

Sorry to lay this out, but that's just the way it is from a colonized, as opposed to a colonizer, perspective.

The autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarchate of Kyiv will one day achieve the same of canonicity that the MP has.

Besides, isn't the Russian Church now divided into FOUR competing jurisdictions, as my Russian friend tells me?

But, it's Pascha, and I'm already overstepping the bounds of good behaviour toward Roman Catholic and Orthodox.

Strange, isn't it, that when it comes to the Ukies, those two Churches find an amazingly unified stance?

I don't think you are that far removed from Rome, Friend - do you?

Forgive me for being a Ukie.

Alex

+JMJ+

Orthoman:

Redemptorists, as a whole, are in communion with Rome. It is only the Transalpine Redemptorists (crazy, "bi-Ritual" SSPXers) who are not in communion with Rome.

The Transalpine Redemptorists are a wacko group. There literature portrays the idea that Latin is more Catholic then Eastern. They also deny most things distinctive to the Eastern Churches in favor of Latin Customs. Altar Rails, Statues, Stations, Rosaries, etc. Their literature has also said such things as the Rosary is a higher prayer and more effacacious then the Chotki. They have also said that the Orthodox are heretics that need to be converted to the Catholic Church.

I beg anyone out there to destroy Transalpine Redemptorist literature, to dissasociate with this group, to discontinue any support for this group.

AS for the SSPX, they will come back into communion with Rome eventually. +Bernard Fellay (Superior General of the SSPX) was allowed to offer up the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass accoriding to the Tridentine usage in St. Peter's Basilica. He did this with more than a million pilgrims from the SSPX during the Jubilee year.

Joe Zollars

Dear Joe,

But if the SSPX come into communion with Rome, which western bogeyman will our Orthodox friends compare "uncanonical" Ukrainian Orthodox with?

Jehovah's Witnesses perhaps?

Alex

+JMJ+

Alex, bite your tongue! There are always the SSPV, which is a more accurate comparison considering the SSPV also does not accept the currant Patriarch of Rome as being legit.

There is also the CMRI, and at least 30 different groups that are "Independent Traditionalists" or have elected their own "Pope". There is also of course the Old Catholics and the High Church Anglicans as well as tens of thousands of Vagantes you could compare them with.

Joe Zollars

Dear Alex:

XPUCTOC BOCKPECE!

[How was your Pascha?]

Wonderful! Even though I ate too much. Especially 'Syrna Pascha' (did I spell it right)?
Which is not too swift for a person with type II diabetes.
I love going to church on 'Bright Monday'. In our parish all the Sunday school kids carry the Icons around the church in the procession. There were about 40 of them. This one little boy, named Alexei, is about two years old and two feet high. And it was the cutest thing watching him carry his Icon with such piety! Just hope someone took pictures.
Our priest every year sings a beautiful Ukrainian Paschal hymn in Ukrainian. It almost sounds like a Ukrainian lullaby. He does it in honor of his 'aunt Olga' who taught it to him when he was a little boy. My mothers name was Olga so it always puts tears in my eyes because it brings her back to me briefly while I listen to it.

[I regret UC's remark about the Russian Patriarch and the OCA thing.]

Which is what I was trying to address

[But, having said that, I'm going to have to disagree with your comparison of the "uncanonical" Ukrainian Churches with the SSPX et al.
It's not really the same thing. But we'll agree to disagree.]

Well, guess we will have to do that because to me it is the same thing. Good or bad, right or wrong, both of those Ukrainian churches are non canonical at the present time. As are the two Catholic jurisdictions I mentioned. That was my point.
Please don't get me wrong, I am 100% in favor of and supportive of a canonical autocephalous Orthodox Church in the Ukraine. The sooner, the better. But the point I was trying to make is that given the current status of these churches within world wide Orthodoxy, protocol would not sanction a visit by the leader of another Orthodox Church to them. For it would cause dissention.
This should not be taken as a condemnation of these groups, but a matter of protocol as I have mentioned. No doubt their canonical status will be corrected some time in the future.
My own (OCA) jurisdiction was in a similiar status until 1960.

[The autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarchate of Kyiv will one day achieve the same of canonicity that the MP has.]

I agree and have no problem with it as I have stated earlier. The future of Orthodoxy in Ukraine may depend upon it.
But we are talking about the 'here and now'.

[Besides, isn't the Russian Church now divided into FOUR competing jurisdictions, as my Russian friend tells me?]

That may or may not be true. But you have that within the Eastern Rite as well as the Western Rite of Roman Catholicism. Its a fact of life. And usually a result of mixing religion with politics.

Example: Not too long ago I came across a website called something like 'The Byzantine Catholic Church Incorporated'. What the heck is that?
You could spend a long time just accessing the bogus Orthodox jurisdictions with websites on the internet.

And most of these divisions in both eastern and western Christianity are the results of politics and nationalism. As I have already stated. Unfortunately, its what you get when you mix religion and politics.

Thats why when people ask me my religion I answer by telling them I am an Orthodox Catholic. When they reply with Russian or Greek, etc, I respond with Orthodox American rather than an American Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Carpatho Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, etc.
Why? Because for me to say I'm American Orthodox would still be putting a national identity before God. The three things in my life I love and cherish the most are my God, my family, and my country. In that order. They are separate but equal and in a specific order. Kind of like the Trinity. But I seem to be getting off track here so I'll end.

It reminds me of one of our college students who had the following experience last week during 'Holy Week'. When she asked one of her Professors to be excused from class for Good Friday. The professor asked her - "What is more important? Your religion or your studies?" To which she replied - "My religion!" A call to our priest resulted in a call to the dean of the college and within two hours she had her excuse slip and an apology from the professor. I am proud of that girl. Why? Because she put God before everything which is the point I'm trying to make. And the way it should be.

OrthoMan

Orthoman,
When the Pope was in Ukraine last summer, he met with Patriarch Filaret (UOC-KP) who is unconnanical in the eyes of "world Orthodoxy" As far as Patriarch Lubomyr is concerned, although I know the man, I don't know if he meets with unconnanical RC churches. As some may have read on earlier posts, I really don't believe wether a church is 'connanical' or not, as long as there isn't spiritual flaws, I don't think God is judging wether this church is or not. BTW, Orthoman, are you Ukrainian Orthodox?
-uc

I'm a second generation born American with mixed slavic blood. On my fathers side my grandmother was born in the US returned to Poland when she was seven and came back to the US when she was seventeen. My grandfather was from the Croation aristocracy and was born and raised on the Adriatic coast in Dalmatia. Tucepi. The estate where he was born and raised was confiscated by the communistics and is now known as the Hotel Kastellet. I can access pictures and book reseverations on the internet.

On my mothers side I'm from a Lemko background.

As far as my religion, as I have stated I'm an Orthodox Catholic American. Who, is proud of his slavic roots (all of them) but puts God first in matters of religion.

OrthoMan

Dear Orthoman,

Forgive me for my earlier mouthing off, but I understand you now and agree with your position.

Did I also mention that I admire you too?

The future of the Church, here and now, depends on such devoted and loyal servants of Christ as yourself.

The "podvig" of Holy Week always gets me feeling aggressive.

I used to have an outlet for that when I was in amateur wrestling.

Now I take the dog out for long walks.

God bless,

Alex