May 4, 2002
Associated Press Newswires
Copyright 2002. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.

VATICAN CITY (AP) - The Vatican said Saturday it was establishing two new dioceses in Ukraine and naming new bishops - a move that may create fresh tensions with the Russian Orthodox Church.

The new dioceses appear however to have been carved out of existing diocese territory, not new areas. They represent the regions of Kharkiv-Zaporizhia and Odessa-Simferopol.

The Vatican in February provoked the ire of the Russian Orthodox Church when it decided to elevate the status of four "apostolic administrations" in Russia to full-fledged dioceses.

Catholic leaders said the move was necessary to regularize the activities of Russia's 212 parishes and nearly 300 smaller, unregistered Catholic communities. But the Orthodox Church said it was an attempt by the Vatican to expand its influence in Russia and seek converts in the predominantly Orthodox country.

Pope John Paul II has made improvement of relations with Orthodox Christians a goal of his papacy, but the Orthodox Church has pointed to alleged Catholic poaching for converts as a top obstacle to a papal visit to Russia.

The two churches are also rivals for former church properties being relinquished by the governments of former Soviet republics - including in western Ukraine.

The pope visited Ukraine last year - despite criticism by the patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Alexy II.

There was no immediate comment from Orthodox officials Saturday to the Vatican's announcement; many offices were closed ahead of Sunday's Orthodox Easter celebrations.

About the dioceses, are these dioceses in ukraine latin or Eastern?

Are there Ukrainian greek catholics in Eastern Ukaine? Donetsk, Odessa, Kyiv???

I knew that the Roman Catholic converts are those who come from protestant denominations or non-chrsitian religions.
Does the RC defines those who were Orthodox and became RC as converts?
I don't think so, because they're not rebaptized or chrismated and they're just transfered to another church.
Is this true?

Remie,
As for Orthodox who come into communion with the Apostolic See of Rome there is no question of calling these people converts because they already have the Apostolic Faith. As you stated they are indeed Baptized and Chrismated.
They are received simply by declaring their communion with Rome.
And may I add THY ARE NOT TO BECOME ROMAN!
The Code of Canon Law says,that people who are baptized or received into communion in a Latin Church are in the equivalent Eastern Church of their Tradition.

Stephanos I

Its about time that Rome has made a definite move to visibly support the rights of Ukrainian Catholics instead of always ignoring their needs due to "ecumenical concerns". Why shouldnt the Ukrainian Church have the right to establish new eparchies when the need arises to serve her own people?

Robert K.

Oh, so now you are the judge of what Rome should be doing? When were you made Pope, Robert?

Did you read "Ut Unum Sint" and "Orientale Lumen" yet?

anastasios

Yes, I have read them and grudgingly agree to their statements. However since they were not promulgated ex cathedra I do not have to believe in their words as dogmatically binding.

As for Ukrainian eparchies, again I ask, why shouldnt they be created when they are necessary for the good order of the Church. THe Ukrainian Catholic people have suffered for centuries at the hands of the Russian government and its puppet church and now that they are finaly free from Russian rule, still Moscow must dominate them?

THe Ukrainian Catholic faithful have suffered much to remain in union with Rome and through the spilling of their bllod, the Ukrainian land has been sanctified and liberated from the tyranny of the Moscovite barbarians to become a great nation. Yet, Russia still seeks to control the Ukraine and subjigate her people to their yoke through the Russian colonialist church that has been set up in that country. Notice that the report did not say that the Ukrainian Church of Patriarch Philart was angry, but that the Moscow Patriarchate (Which sees Ukraine as Russian territory) was upset at these actions.

The Vatican is finally realized at last that their policy of appeasing the Russian bear didnt work and that Russia should be converted to the Catholic faith. This is the job of the Ukrainiane people whose destiny it is to lead the Russians back to Rome. This was confirmed in a vision of the Blessed Mother to a Ukrainian peasant girl just before the strt of the first world war. I cannot remember the exact details of the apparition but it did occur and was a great blessing for all of the oppresed Ukrainian Catholic peoples who would suffer much during the twentieth century.

You see Anastasios, by associating yourself with St. Vlads, you are starting to pick up a Russian imperialist mentality towards Ukrainians!
If you must go to an Orthodox seminary for your own reasons, then go to South Bound Brook.

Robert K.

Robert K stated: "with St. Vlads, you are starting to pick up a Russian imperialist mentality towards Ukrainians!"

FYI St. Vladimir's is one of the seminaries in the OCA which used to be Moscow Patriarch until the early 70's. Their Metropolitan Theodosious, has frequented Moscow and when he was in Ukraine, Met. Theodosious only went to Moscow Patriarchate places. OCA is still very much connected with Moscow. Russia. No offense ment to Anastasios
-ukrainiancatholic

When I first read and posted the article, I had assumed that the new bishops were of the Eastern rite.

I just looked around the 'net, and according to the Ukr. BBC service, the new bishops are Latin.

A nice Easter gift to the Greek Catholics, apparently.

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Roman ]

Yes, I have read them and grudgingly agree to their statements. However since they were not promulgated ex cathedra I do not have to believe in their words as dogmatically binding.

So you fall into the trap of many "traditionalist" Roman Catholics who do not recognize the Pope's teaching role outside of the ex cathedra statements? In other words, if the Pope doesn't say "now guys this statement is infallible" then you can ignore it?

As for Ukrainian eparchies, again I ask, why shouldnt they be created when they are necessary for the good order of the Church. THe Ukrainian Catholic people have suffered for centuries at the hands of the Russian government and its puppet church and now that they are finaly free from Russian rule, still Moscow must dominate them?

I never said I was against more Ukrainian eparchies. I just object to the way that you have become the judge of the Pope. Remember, the "ecuemenical" councils of the Roman Catholic Church such as Vatican I said that the Pope can't be judged!

THe Ukrainian Catholic faithful have suffered much to remain in union with Rome and through the spilling of their bllod, the Ukrainian land has been sanctified and liberated from the tyranny of the Moscovite barbarians to become a great nation. Yet, Russia still seeks to control the Ukraine and subjigate her people to their yoke through the Russian colonialist church that has been set up in that country. Notice that the report did not say that the Ukrainian Church of Patriarch Philart was angry, but that the Moscow Patriarchate (Which sees Ukraine as Russian territory) was upset at these actions.

Robert K.... first you joined ROCOR and wore Russian outfits, now you diss Russians... Now you are using Ukrainians for your ethnic fix... when will you stop trying to imitate quaint foreign cultures, and focus on the Church as the Church?? I love the Arabic culture of the Melkite Church, but do I run around talking about our "Arabic Church" etc. etc.? No... becuase I am not a part of that culture. I can assimilate some of its qualities, sure... but you seem to be jumping from Church to Church, from ethnic group to ethnic group, searching desperately for an identity. Why not look at yourself, instead of copying others? Ukrainians don't give a hoot what you think about them. You by your own admission don't even attend liturgy at a Ukrainian Church! Give me a break!

The Vatican is finally realized at last that their policy of appeasing the Russian bear didnt work and that Russia should be converted to the Catholic faith. This is the job of the Ukrainiane people whose destiny it is to lead the Russians back to Rome. This was confirmed in a vision of the Blessed Mother to a Ukrainian peasant girl just before the strt of the first world war. I cannot remember the exact details of the apparition but it did occur and was a great blessing for all of the oppresed Ukrainian Catholic peoples who would suffer much during the twentieth century.

Sure, Robert K... sure. But those visions weren't ex cathedra defined by the Pope, so I don't have to believe in them, right?

You see Anastasios, by associating yourself with St. Vlads, you are starting to pick up a Russian imperialist mentality towards Ukrainians!
If you must go to an Orthodox seminary for your own reasons, then go to South Bound Brook.

I'm beginning to just think you have lots of time on your hands, and are trying to find ways to start arguments... have you ever been to St. Vladimir's?? There are Ukrainains there!! In fact, a Ukrainian Catholic nun recently got a Doctor of Divinity degree there! And there are Americans, Serbs, Arabs, Blacks, etc. all at St. Vladimir's... this ain't Russia anymore, baby!

anastasios

The new diocese in East Ukraine are Latin-Rite Catholic, not Greek Catholic. The new Greek Catholic eparchy for Eastern Ukraine is Donetsk-Kharkiv with the eparchial see in the city of Donetsk. The new Bishop is Most Reverend Stapan Menyuk (sp?).

I find it interesting, in a disturbing way, that Rome would publish this on Holy Saturday for the Orthodox and Greek Catholic in Ukraine. I have no problem with the RC Church establishing new diocese in Ukraine, however, I wonder if their (RCC) decisions are not always for the more practical, but more an effort to convert Ukraine to Roman Catholicism. I will be posting an excerpt from an article I found on www.risu.org
which is written by a Greek Catholic and expresses well what I am trying to say. It will be a seperate thread/post, as I have wanted to post it for a while and I think it has a particular reference for this post.

Chirst is Risen!
(finally for both Orthodox and Catholic)
ALity

Anastasios

I did not say that I do not except the Popes encyclicals as Catholic teaching. In fact, I affirmed that I did and do indeed except them in their entirity.

Yes, the Orthodox Churches are indeed valid apostolic churches which can trace their lineage back to the Apostolic fathers. But sadly they are not part of the true and complete Church of Christ which subsist in the Catholic Church. That Church has a visible head, the Pope and comprises of all the bishops united under his spiritual authority. While the Orthodox are almost the same as the Catholic Church, non the less, they muiss the mark by a few inches for not being in communion with the Holy Father.

So both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are not on the same level as each other. THe Orthodox need to be in communion with the Holy Father to be truly Catholic. The Pope most certainly states that in both of his Eastern oriented encyclicals and he invites the Orthodox to discuss ways in which they can accept Papal authority which would be acceptable to them. The last part is basically what I have trouble with. Millions of people have died both for and because of Catholic unity and, in my opinion, the present office of the Papacy is already complete both in its role and how it utilizes that role. True unity does not so far exist between these two Churches. When I return to the Catholic Church, I will have to admit that I did indeed leave her visible fold and am returning to it. If both Churches recognized eachother as equals then such a ceremony would not be necessary. At least the charity in which the Catholic Church treats Orthodox returning home far outcedes the Orthodox who had me REBAPTIZED upon entering their fold!!!

I would not want to see the Pope reduced to a mere figurehead with no actual or absolute authority or voice merely in order to appease the Orthodox whose own internal chaos is not actually something that should be held up as an effective example of Church governance. Unity would be just wonderful but it has to be on the rock of Peter and his succesors and not just an intercommunion. I think if you read the two encyclicals of the Holy Father, you will see that this is clearly expressed.

AS to Ukrainians: Why shouldnt they be proud of their long history of sacrifice and struggle not only against foriegn dominance but also in the preservation of the Catholic faith which, even today, is still going on. If I became a Ukrainian Catholic, most certainly would I imerse myself in her culture and traditions and try to be, as best as possible, a loyla nad proud adopted sone of her people. I would not be ashamed of associating or even absorbing as much as possible for the great Ukrainian people who truly constitute one of the greatest and most progressive cultures on Earth.

AS to St Vlads, no matter how "pan-Orthodox" they are today, the point still is that they are apart of jurisdiction that feverishly labored for decades to not only convert Greek Catholic Ruthenians but to Russify them as well. THey will probably place all kinds of pressure on you to become Orthodox by making you feel inferior as an Eastern Catholic. Dont think that this is just anti-orthodox rhetoric on my part. Be assured from one who is formerly a member of Orthodoxy that they absolutly hate Eastern Catholics and do everything in their power to slander, degrade, and humiliate those Byzantine Catholics that they come into contact with. You will experience this as you attend seminary even if it wasnt detectable upon your enrollment.

Remember, unlike you, I was Orthodox and know well the personally feelings of most Orthodox towards Eastern Catholics. I Catholic shouldnt attend someone elses religoous services or seminaries anyway because it could lead to their falling away from the faith. Same as being in a mixed marriage, the possibility presents a real danger to the Catholic in entering any environment that could cast doubts or cause one to leave the Church. A seminary of another religion is no place for a Catholic, no matter how close to that religon the Church may be!

Robert K.

Dear Robert K.,

Your passionate defences of the Catholic Church and faith, though they confuse me sometimes, are to be admired, in some ways. What I am itching to know, however, is why you ever left the Catholic Church for the Orthodox? The way you talk, I would think it would be like killing one's own mother or something. Why'd you go over to "the other side"?

Dear Friends,

XPUCTOC BOCKPEC!

First of all, please stop picking on Robert K.!

I told everyone, including Anastasios, that he was hopelessly Papalist and of the Basilian Rite of Ukrainian Catholicism!

And you didn't listen to me, did you?

You thought that just because I'm so nice to everyone, most of the time, that you could ignore my warnings with impunity . . .

Anyway, you guys ain't gonna win with Robert, so leave him be or else he'll be soon calling all of us, including me, "Russophiles."

The new dioceses are indeed Latin and they are meant to serve the Latins, among whom are many Ukrainians, in those areas.

The Latin Ukies are either descendants of the 1946 crowd who wouldn't go Russian, or else new converts like several aunts and cousins of mine, who want to try something new and exotic and with a Church leader who DOESN'T hold KGB membership.

I think we're getting all excited about a social and cultural situation of which we, as North Americans, really have very little experience with and understanding of (myself included ).

A Happy Bright Week! Brighten up, everyone . . .

Alex

How many Greek-Catholic bishops are there east of the Zbruch river today?

It seems that after the subdivision announced Saturday (the timing of which has to be interpreted as being aggressive in light of the Vatican's reputation in diplomacy), there at at least 4 Latin bishops east of the Zbruch.

Dear Roman,

Perhaps they are aggressive.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't a groundswell of support for the RC Church among Ukrainian youth and others today.

Communications I receive seem to indicate people there are tired of the endless bickering among the Ukrainian Churches, the politics etc. etc.

Are the RC getting their message out and reaching for converts?

You better believe they are. It is time we got going as well.

Alex