Which would seem to say that in 1054 the Holy Spirit gave up on the Church and left us to our natural wits. I would hope both Catholics and Orthodox are uncomfortable with that. I know I can't accept it.

Excellent point, Kurt.

Also, since the split didn’t happen all at once in 1054, when exactly would the Holy Spirit have gone mute?

I agree (no surprise) with Brendan.

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus’</a>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 02-06-2001).]

This is is such a rich thread. Thank you all.

As I understand it we recieive the whole Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. How is it possible to receive less or more of Jesus. The Person is real body, blood, soul, and divinity as the Latin catechism used to say.
When I'm dying, I don't think it'll matter one whit whether His form is one drop from the cup or one crumb of the bread. I will receive the Jesus that I'm going to be with only by His Mercy.

Two species or one is to me a specious argument upon which to focus. Church discipline is fine, but to argue how much of Jesus we receive and in which species seems to miss the point. Jesus is present here truly. I think a sense of wonder should be the predominant thought when we reflect on that. He made us part of His Body through Baptism, all of us. He enters ours through the Eucharist no matter which Church's priest's hands share Him.

So many of you have said as much in a better way. ISTM that we need to recognize Jesus really present in the Thanksgiving in Person and worship Him while we may among all the peoples to whom He presents Himself. "There remain then these three Faith, Hope, and Love; but the greatest of these is Love." 1Cor. 13:13 I find it difficult to see how denying Him to anyone who comes to receive Him is an example of that Love. Church discipline is not why the Church exists IMHO.

Please do not let the written expression impede the meaning.

Joy!

While rationally you are pretty much right, Brendan, but I will submit one thing beyond my occasional emotional outburst (which I said in the last post) the fact is that BEFORE the Photian Reunion council, communion between Latins and Greeks was reestablished so that the council would be ecumenical for the whole church--and the Greeks certainly viewed the Latin position as heretical, while the latins viewed Photios as a usurper.

This did not happen at Florence. Perhaps the difference in outcome?

source: Fr. John Meyendorff _Rome, Constantinople, Moscow_

anastasios

Not really, Kurt. Just that all post schism dogmas are merely theological speculation and a continuation of the status quo that existed before the schism. We need to have a meeting of equals at the next council.

anastasios

"fact is that BEFORE the Photian Reunion council, communion between Latins and Greeks was reestablished so that the council would be ecumenical for the whole church--and the Greeks certainly viewed the Latin position as heretical, while the latins viewed Photios as a usurper.
This did not happen at Florence. Perhaps the difference in outcome?"

Okay, I see what you are saying. To me it's a bit of a technical issue (how can you have a council with people outside the Church, right?). I could see that kind of thing perhaps happening immediately prior to a reunion council (let's face it, given the way that this issue is presently being addressed, if and when we get to that point, there probably won't be a whole lot of suspense about what is going to happen at the council) -- but I can't see intercommunion for a long period in *lieu* of a council to definitively affirm the common faith.

Brendan

Dustin,

Can you elaborate on this? I would now read you as proposing that the Holy Spirit's protection has not left the Church but, since the schism, the need has not existed for this protection (each body has gone merrily on its way with the Truth known in 1054). Is it then that the era of Ecumencial Councils is closed. The fundementals of the Christian faith have been defined and this is a closed book?

I think that position has some merit, but I am not sure I have thought it all the way through. It certainly saves us from having to speculate on what must be done to call a new Council.

K.