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Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111365 05/17/02 08:05 PM
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Orthodox Catholic Offline OP
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Dear Orthoman,

You are right!

But I was quoting from another source!

Cut me some slack, will you? smile

Political correctness, political correctness!

That's all I get from people here! smile

Do those Eastern Catholics who don't like the "U" term have something against people like you and I? smile

If they do, I think we're agreed on what we'd say to them!

(Now you know why people wish me "Many Years" and "Z Praznikom" on the Sunday of the Pharisee, as if that were my Namesday smile ).

Have a great week-end, Big Guy!

Your humble servant,

Alex

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111366 05/17/02 08:37 PM
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John
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If someone is quoting a specific text that uses the term “Uniate” then it is appropriate to use it as part of the quote. It is when it is used as pejorative that it becomes a problem. The same policy of good taste would apply to the terms “papist”, “heretic” and etc. Thanks, OrthoMan for politely pointing the lack of clarity in this request. smile

Admin

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111367 05/17/02 08:41 PM
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Dr John Offline
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The Moose has interpreted my post about converts and zeal more accurately than I posted. I do not malign converts (going to or from wherever) but I have a problem with those who take pot-shots at their former brethren, or in some cases, who go from Protestantism to Orthodox and carry their former Protestant anti-Papist rhetoric with them since it appears to be acceptable (among some) in Orthodoxy.

As for the traditionalist groups that OrthodoxyOrDeath has mentioned: true enough, most of their adherents are 'old country' based. But except for a very small number of parishes in the Metro New York area (with small numbers of congregants), the overwhelmingly vast numbers of U.S. Greeks belong to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America. When these jurisdictions are mentioned in conversation, most Greeks I know just shrug their shoulders, raise their eyes heavenward, and change the topic of conversation.

I am still convinced that we have allowed ourselves to be somewhat brainwashed into thinking that the manmade structures of dioceses, patriarchates, synods, etc. are critical elements in working out one's salvation. When left to their own devices, God's people just seem to get along very well when not pressed about these structure issues. (My evidence for this is that there are all sorts of 'jurisdictions' represented at our parish festival - eating, dancing, talking, sipping coffee, etc. The same is true at the local Greek parish. I regularly see at least a half dozen of our Byzantine Catholic parish there, eating, drinking, listening to the music, buying icons and cassettes, etc. during the two hours that I am present. How many others come, over the two day festival, well, I don't know, but..... Same with the OCA parish festival near us in Maryland.)

I just think that if we didn't press this administrative/jurisdictional stuff, God's baptized people would just have a great time with each other. Even praying.

[Just an anthropological/theological thought: when you have good food, good drink and good music, people just have a good, loving time with each other. Is it just a coincidence that the Lord chose a common meal to provide the primary unification ceremony for His servants? Did Jesus know something that we don't? Hmm. It's spring; summer is coming and time for parish festivals. Get out there and spend some money with our brethren!!! The parish festivals are a surrogate Eu-charist ["good grace"]. To quote Homer Simpson: "Haaaaaammmm-buuurrrr-gerrrrrrs".)

Blessings!

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Dr John ]

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111368 05/22/02 02:59 PM
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Dear Administrator,

Yes, I cannot say enough about Orthoman either! smile

Did you ask him to join the Forum or did he come voluntarily? smile

Either way, we are all the better for having him here!

Alex

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111369 05/22/02 03:42 PM
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[Yes, I cannot say enough about Orthoman either!]

Thank you Alex. You may not like what I have to say at times but you will always know it is my honest opinion or analysis. Which, may or may not be correct.

[Did you ask him to join the Forum or did he come voluntarily?]

I'll answer that myself. No, I was not invited to join. I found the site quite by accident when I was searching out web sites I thought would give me a copy of the Union of Brest/Litovsk. So I did a search on Byzantine Catholic and followed thru to this portion. Have never regreted my decision to join the group.


[If someone is quoting a specific text that uses the term “Uniate” then it is appropriate to use it as part of the quote.]

Thanks administratior for pointing this out. My priest just gave me a book entitled "UNIATISM - Definition, Causes, Effects, Scope, Dangers, Remedies." Written by Fr Cyril Korolevsky & translated by Fr Serge Keleher both of which are 'Greek Catholic' priests.
In just glancing through the book, I thought to myself - "How can I ever discuss this on the Byzantine Forum when every page either has the word 'uniate' or 'uniatism through out the book. And it's written by they themselves!

OrthoMan

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111370 05/22/02 04:42 PM
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Dear Orthoman,

Actually, I would love it if you would discuss that book.

Don't worry about the "Uniatism" stuff as you would be quoting from another source.

We all know YOU don't agree with that nomenclature! smile

Half my mother's family is Orthodox, the other half Eastern Catholic.

The Orthodox side calls the others "Uniates."

Quite by accident, during a family gathering when I was a small boy (actually I was pretty tall for my age), I was asked to describe the religious affiliation of those present.

I then named off uncle and aunt so and so, and said they were "United."

Then I said the rest were "Disunited."

I didn't get any extra cake for my trouble that afternoon, let me tell you! smile

But, please, present that book by all means.

Alex

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111371 05/22/02 07:11 PM
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Interesting going back and forth. I always thought that this was a little merky myself. From being in this chat, I see some of the Catholics describe themselves as more Western, others are more Eastern in their outlots. However, the Orthodox Church is not, has never been and will never be under the control of Rome. End of story. We are "catholic" in the sense that the truth of Orthodoxcy applies to all people.

The Pope can visit Orthodox nations and the Catholic press can say what bad guys we are because we don't attend his "mass" and kiss his ring, but we are not and will never cave. The Pope is needed in America a lot more than in Bulgaria. The Bulgarian priests are not abusing children.

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111372 05/22/02 07:20 PM
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Dear JP,

(The letters of the current Pope, no less!)

Now, now, no one is suggesting that the Orthodox bend before the Pope.

It would be sufficient if the Orthodox would acknowledge their own rightful Patriarchs and Primates!

A future relationship with Rome, if it can be worked out, would involve a much more fraternal and "first among equals" kind of thing.

I remember reading about the life of Pope St John I.

He was sent to Greece by the Arian Visigothic King Alaric (?) to convey a very political message to it.

Instead, he ignored the order and conducted a pastoral visitation.

The Greeks greeted him with cheers, processions of lit candles, dancing and joyful singing.

Pope John then returned to Rome where he was unceremoniously martyred by the king while still on the docks.

May we experience such heroism and such unity based on freedom and truth once again!

Alex

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111373 05/23/02 12:30 AM
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jp notes above: "We are "catholic" in the sense that the truth of Orthodoxcy applies to all people."

Agreed, with no question.

But: "The Pope can visit Orthodox nations and the Catholic press can say what bad guys we are because we don't attend his "mass" and kiss his ring, but we are not and will never cave. The Pope is needed in America a lot more than in Bulgaria. The Bulgarian priests are not abusing children."

When the words: "will never cave" occur, it seems to me that something else than the love of God and neighbor is operative. Unless and until ALL of us Christians can get beyond this "us"/"them" perspective, we are not fulfilling the command of our Savior to love one another and to forgive one another "not seven times, but seventy times seven".

I pray that we all gain the perspective of the "not painted by human hands" icon and gain the "True Humility" that our Lord showed to us by His suffering and death on the Cross.

Blessings to All!!

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111374 05/23/02 02:20 AM
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Okay, okay, boys and girls (not too many girls here, though I looked at Byzantines.org which is sure an "all-male" board).

If you Byzantine Catholics are OICWR, is it equally true that Orthodox are "Byzantine Episcopalians"?

Axios

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111375 05/23/02 04:49 AM
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Scuzi, but why Byzantine Episcopalians? I don't see the parallel or analogy at all. (But, it's late here and I'm tired and .........)

Blessings!

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111376 05/23/02 01:02 PM
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We Orthodox are neither papal nor congregational. We are an episcopal church -- a church lead by bishops. And we are of the Byzantine/Greek patrimony. Right? Hence Byzantine Episcopal.

Dr. John, I am hurt a wise and scholarly person like you did not see this smile

Axios

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111377 05/23/02 01:27 PM
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:-) Again, just to be a bit mischievous, I have to ask, what do you call Western Rite Orthodox? "Romans Not in Union"?

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111378 05/23/02 01:54 PM
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Dear Tim,

The Western Rite Orthodox I am privileged to know call themselves "Antiochian Orthodox."

They love being in union with a Patriarchate also founded by St Peter and where "Christian" first came to be used.

Alex

Re: Orthodox - in union with Rome? #111379 05/23/02 02:20 PM
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Quote
Tim wrote:
:-) Again, just to be a bit mischievous, I have to ask, what do you call Western Rite Orthodox? "Romans Not in Union"?


"Roman Catholics in communion with the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch" would be correct, appropriate and acceptable (even if quite a mouthful). In general, however, I tend to respect the descriptions Churches choose for themselves.

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