Dear Friends,

O.K., I just got an earful from a friend who is a convert about what's wrong with his previous Church.

I've heard it all before.

And I've had enough.

What advice would you give me to relate to him?

Why do you think he is so angry at his previous Church?

Is this symptomatic of many converts?

Alex

I think that this situation is very common among converts. When they enter their new Church (or their new religion) the realize "how bad" was their old religion and seem to be angry with that faith because of their bad experience. (this is frequent among chrsitians that convert to Islam)

In some cases converts change their faith but not their traditional background (you can see that when a fundamentalist protestant converts to Orthodoxy, he is still a fervent anti-catholic and still thinks as a protestant).

A friend from the junior highschool was a heavy metal fan, and loved to wear pentagrams, shirts with devils and those things. One year ago he converted to Islam and became a radical muslim, now he dresses according to the "islamic tradition" and burned (I mean burned, not copied) all his heavy metal records. He was always very anti-christian and he's still like this.

I have a friend

Dear Remie,

In other words, your friend is still on the horns of a dilemma!

The friend I am talking about was a former Anglican and became Ukrainian Orthodox.

He hates all things Anglican or RC.

And now he hates all things ethnic Orthodox as these gave him a hard time.

He tried to organize a school and was otherwise very active in the parish.

So active that his spiritual father banned him from Communion for a period for three times since his conversion.

Even his bishop wouldn't answer the door when he came knocking.

And so he joined the OCA.

The problem is, he has now added Orthodox to his hate list!

Alex

Although I am not actually a convert but instead a revert, I admit that at times I can get a little hyperactive and somewhat nasty about certain issues. I do sincerly apologize for perhaps spoiling, at times, the polite interfaith relations that pass for the norm on this forum with my polemics (Although I do not apologize for holding the views that I do in any way ut only for perhaops making a pest out of myself for always spouting them around here).

I gues that people like myself who have3 been away from our faith for a long time and come back are just sort of suprised to see all the discord that occurs over that faith from people who have always had it. So again, I dont mean to get everyone annoyed by the things that I say but only wish to speak my voice up about issues which I feel are important and should not just be written off.

Robert K.

Dear Robert,

No one is pointing fingers at you, Basilian-minded Friend .

But thank you for sharing your own experiences, as a "revert" that is.

Alex

Slava Jesu Kristu,

I think the anger you perceive is the fire for the Faith. People who convert to another faith must be on "fire" for the conversion to take root. Giving up old affiliations and even family and friends can be quite traumatic if the spirit is weak. As a revert myself, I know what it is like. I think the fire should be tempered but never extinguished. After all, St. Paul was a convert.

Dmitri

I know what Alex is talking about. Converts have their failings just like the rest of us. Some (certainly not all) are uncertain about their choice to embrace a new Church and its teachings. Instead of immersing themselves fully into the life of their new Church they sometimes focus more on the shortcomings of their old Church. Some go to great length to discuss these shortcomings (perceived or real) and even display much bitterness. This is generally a sign that they are trying to convince themselves that their new Church is correct on the issues important to them by telling themselves that their new Church must be correct because their old Church is incorrect.

There is a program that airs on EWTN called "The Journey Home" hosted by Marcus Grodi. The guests tell the story of their journey to Roman Catholicism (usually from Protestantism). The individuals witnessing their journey who appear the healthiest and strongest in their new Roman Catholic faith are those who are thankful for their good experiences in their former Protestant Church. Mr. Grodi seems to not choose guests who are bitter towards their past. Very wise and intentional, I think.

Converts to the East from the West or to the West from the East are no different. I've seen more than a few former Roman Catholics who became either Byzantine Catholic or Orthodox and then spent the next ten years telling everyone about what they thought was wrong about Roman Catholicism. These people seemed (at least to me) to relate to Byzantine Christianity in terms of the black-and-white Western, legalistic approach to everything.

It all boils down to the question: "Are you seeking or fleeing?" If you seek you find. If you flee you may stumble on the Truth but it will be difficult if your eyes are always looking to what you left rather than what you embraced.

I should note clearly again that I speak of some, but not all converts. Most set an example of zeal and a level witness that puts us cradles to shame.

Converts, reverts, whatever -- we ALL can be so enamored of the sound of our voice (keyboard?) we forget that others hold their opinions just as dear. It's the very human sin of pride. I did it in a post earlier today. Mea culpa. Forgive me.

We converts should remember that our beliefs have changed over time, and may change again. Like Saul-to-Paul, sometimes God leads us kicking and screaming where we don't want to go.

Alex's friend sounds as if he's going to be angry, regardless of where he is.

The very wise (and very ecumenical) Greek priest who chrismated me sat me down early on and informed me very firmly that I was NOT coming to Christ by becoming Orthodox. "If you choose to continue your walk with Christ in this Church, He and we will welcome you, but know this: You were raised a Christian, you were introduced to Jesus Christ at the most sacred of all altars, the altar of your mother's knee, and you have her, not me, to thank for that."

And then there are some people who used to post here, former whatever who became Byzantine Catholic and then spent all their time lecturing all of us peasants about what they thought was wrong with the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church in America.

In fact, the only good things about our Church, in their view, seem to be the things that they themselves are involved in... :rolleyes:

Your priest is a very wise man!




I may disagree with some of their positions but I have learned much from them. I do not judge them and miss their presence here.

In making the very difficult and challenging decision to change one's church community, converts (of whatever persuasion) are sometimes psychologically pressured to "defend" their actions. As a result, they can sometimes become "more Papal than the Pope" (as the saying goes) and feel constrained to not only defend their perceptions of their new community, but to validate why they felt the need to leave the old one.

Unfortunately, as newbies, their perspectives are colored by their own rationales about what their new community is, and when confronted by life-longs (or: cradles, if you will) they can become rather vehement in defending that which brought them to the new community.

While, as His Mooseness has oftentimes pointed out, the newbies can goad the cradles into being more reflective and faithful, at the same time, cradles, now and in the past have adapted -- as a living community -- to the circumstances that they faced. And dismissing this 'adaptability' (oftentimes for mere survival!) can strike the cradles as arrogance on the part of the newbies.

Being told to restore language, discarded customs, etc. is seen as an assault on the more recent memories of the cradles. The changes that the historic cradles made were done for a reason; sometimes a good reason, sometimes for mere convenience, and sometimes to prove a point.

When the newbies start using Russian or OCS or Greek or Arabic as a sign of "commitment to 'orthodoxy'" among the latter day cradle generations in the diaspora, and insist that this is important, then for latter-day cradles, it is a slap in the face of the cradles' forebears who made a conscious decision to make the change for the benefit of the community.

While there may be pockets of folks in the cradle community who insist upon doing things as they were done 200 years ago, the fact is that the majority of folks have moved on. First, second and especially third generation cradles in this country (yeah - Canada too, Alex) don't identify with the 'old country', whatever it may be. They're North Americans with a specific heritage that they cherish, but are unwilling to research what their grandfolks did and make it the primary element in their lifestyle.

The absolutely critical aspect is this: how does one live the Gospel and interpret it according to one's heritage? What is there in the ancestors' perspective that will help us preserve our way of living the Gospel? And what changes need to be made to their perspective so that the Gospel-response lifestyle will be preserved in us?

Too often, converts interpret the externals as the essential elements of the faith. They're wrong. It's not the externals, but rather the underlying mindset that gave rise to the externals in the past, and that MUST be used for us today to decide what we need to do to develop the externals of today and to be faithful to our heritage.

While it may seem judgemental of me to say so, I suspect that some of those who have left have not learned the lesson that the 'externals' are not the essence of our Eastern Churches. They are there only as manifestations of the underlying spirituality (and historical experiences) of the living Eastern community. Though it may seem trite, we Constantinopolitans are really a family. Most Byzantines and Orthodoxes understand this in their bones. And while we may disagree about this or that, when an attack comes, we hang together, regardless of (stupid) jurisdictional allegiances.

Until the 'frustrated newbies' begin to understand this, it is perhaps better for them to stew elsewhere.

Blessings!!

Dear Friends,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this important subject.

Perhaps new converts have a need to "fit in" with their new community and so emphasize the externals by way of overkill.

On the other hand, perhaps I am being too judgmental of my friend and others like him.

He seems so happy and joyous in his new faith and Church.

He doesn't take anything for granted. He can't afford to!

Alex

Congratulations on your 3000th post here, Alex. May the converts and cradles of all churches who come here find many more pieces of wisdom and many more examples of your unique sense of humor from your keyboard to enrich us here.

Ad Multos Posts!

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

Dear Steve,

You are too kind!

I guess a big mouth is something not everyone has . . .

Alex

There are a few critical factors, ISTM:

1. Background is important. It is a part of you. You take it with you. Anyone who converts to another religion can never purge their entire background without destroying the person that they are. Attempts to do so are misguided and futile. Better to accept one's background and work with it, rather than against it.

2. Everyone who converts does it for a reason. For those who convert for reasons other than marriage or family, these folks will most certainly have a perspective on where they previously were. It's not right to silence those perspectives under a mantra like "running awayt" or "fleeing" -- in fact, every conversion is a combination of being drawn toward something and actively leaving something else. If things were 100% fine where one was sitting, one would not have been drawn elsewhere, and certainly in deciding how to proceed in such a situation, thinking and reflection will give one a perspective on where one is sitting at the time -- and if one decides to proceed, that perspective will be carried along as well. The important thing, to me, is that this process be an involved and genuine one -- most issues are not black and white, and while it is tempting and far easier to think of them that way (or to help others to do so, as many of our internet evangelists of all stripes seem to do) can create for a bad conversion experience. One should slowly and deliberately confront the issues and resolve them -- that will give one both a confidence in one's decision -- whatever it turns out to be -- as well as an honest and balanced perspective on where one was previously sitting. Unfortunately, this is not encouraged often enough.

3. Often people say things to folks who are going through a conversion process. Some of these conversations can be unfortunately difficult and can leave bitter memories in the mind of the convert. Most typically, a parishioner/friend/priest from the former community will say some rather disturbing or dramatic things in order to pursuade the person *not* to convert, and these can, for a time (and sometimes for a long time) substantially color the convert's view of his or her former community. Now, of course, that is not rational, but it is very human, because obviously the human tie to the prior community is what is being most palpably severed when one converts. One should keep this very real possibility in mind when evaluating a convert's position vis-a-vis his or her former community.

4. Convert zeal is a good thing most of the time. While I am far from a zealous convert (I simply don't have the time on my hands for that), when I hear or see critiques of zealous converts I often relate to them in the context of St. Paul, a zealous convert who had a definite perspective on his former community, and one that was very different from that of many of the other Apostles, who had a more deferential view of their former community. Paul was right, as it turns out, but at the time it did not seem to be the case (at least not to the other Apostles), and he was roundly critiqued for it. Zealous converts are not always bad; if they shake up a community a bit and make people challenge their assumptions about the way things are done and why, then that's a good thing, IMO. Things must be done in charity, of course, but I think the idea that the convert should sit down, shut up and watch the cradles for 30 years so you can learn our ways is nonsense -- it silences one of the best hopes for the church to revitalize itself, for it is on this kind of zeal, and not some kind of misplaced ethnocentric complacency, that the future of the church will inevitably be founded.

Brendan

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: Brendan ]

I think a lot of it has to do with the natural human "need" to justify one's actions. It's not restricted to the religious realm, as anyone knows who has ever listened to someone talking about why they couldn't or wouldn't breastfeed.


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Remie,

It seems your friend, who was always anti-Christian, just brought his hatred for Christianity into his interpretation of Islam, just like so much bad baggage. What a waste of emotional energy.

If conversion to Islam has saved him from the negative influences of the hard-rock culture, you would think that he would be too thankful for the grace of God to waste his emotions on his ill-feeling for Christianity.

Mehmed Sokolovic, a Serbian convert to Islam and a high official--vizier--within the Ottoman court, spent his life helping his former Orthodox confreres and was responsible for the creation of the Patriarchate of Pec, while remaining ideologically committed to his chosen faith--Islam.

Yusuf Islam (a/k/a Cat Stevens), son of a Greek Cypriot father and Jewish mother, certainly hasn't spent his life as a Muslim casting aspersions on Christianity--or any other religion--but has spent his time living a positive life, dedicated to Islam. His work in helping to rebuild war-ravaged Bosnia is legendary, as is his dedication to European Islam.

Muhammed Ali (a/k/a Cassius Clay), since his adoption of a more orthodox practice of Islam--and a breaking of his ties with the Nation of Islam--has lived a life of public service that is internationally respected. He hasn't wasted his life condemning other religions.

Most of the Christian converts to Islam--that I know personally--are not anti-Christian. They have just moved on with their lives.

Salaam,

Abdur

Dear Brendan (the Theologian),

You don't have time on your hands for zeal?

That is almost as if you are saying that, as a convert yourself, such zeal is expected of you, where it might not be of cradles.

Be that as it may, yes, my friend was told not to join the OCA etc. etc. and that figured highly in his decision to do just that.

(I hope you would be happy to know I supported him in that decision and even suggested that he contact you at some point - don't know if he did or not - but that's none of my business).

Most of my contacts with Orthodox have been with converts. I have Orthodox cradles in my family, but there is nothing about them to suggest they're especially religious!

It was through my convert-contacts that I developed a view of Orthodoxy that reflected their strong faith experience and life practice.

They mesmerized me with their wearing of large 3 bar Crosses on a cord on top of their clothing and their large prayer ropes dangling from their wrists etc. in addition to their frequent Crossing of themselves and many other things in public. They didn't care who was looking on, they just went ahead and prayed.

There is just something to their way of life, explain it away if anyone must, that is very demonstrative and yet so full of the power of witness to Christ.

I must say that they inspired me to do things like set up little shrines in places I inhabit, such as at work.

Over time, I've come to realize that our cleaning staff not only pray before the little shrine on my desk, hidden from public view unless you are standing behind my desk. They also look after it, they take the icons and clean them of dust etc.

I'm always moved when I see the icons slightly rearranged when I come in to work on a Monday morning.

The outward symbols and Icons and Crosses are very important. They must always be linked with internal spirituality, to be sure.

But they can inspire and bring blessings into our lives and I am grateful to God's converts for teaching me that.

God bless you, Brendan!

Alex

rose

[ 05-24-2002: Message edited by: Rose ]

Tim hit the note with the word PRIDE... I think all to often people with this anger have low self esteem and are seeking recognition for their accomplishments. These are not the accomplishments that Jesus did through them, but of their own agenda. They may even start off with something they are suppose to do for Jesus, but get side tracked onto their own agenda.

Then like myself as a convert. I saw a lot of what I felt was injustice to others, arrogance, and selfish agendas. It wasn't unusual to see half the church get mad at the other, and move across the street and start another church. Talk about confusing for a kid. Then there was sexual abuse by the protestant clergy to their children and others. Don't hear anything about that in the news do you. Well it is a BIG problem. I was one and I know plenty of other children who went through it. I recently read an article from a paper in Michigan I think, where these doctors had treated over 2,000 cases of sexual abuse by protestant clergy. It was interesting.

Anyway I have repented of my anger and forgiven my agressor and have prayed with many to do the same. I pray they find as much peace and joy, humility,forgiveness, and love where ever they are as I have found in the Byzantine Church.


Moose,

You have propably gotten this forever, but I can't take it any more I gotta ask

Did Rockie and Bullwinkle really live in Frostbite Falls? Of course knowing me I propably have the wrong town.

rose

What is it with Catholics and the need to convert everyone else. The Catholic Church is America is crumbling (see Milwaukee) but the Pope, instead of tending to this business, is in Bulgaria trying to convert Orthodox. Why? Is this the best use of his time? Do we offend Rome that much? If the Pope really wants unity, then come to the east with some other message then submit to my rule.

Yeah, and just last week my pastor tried to sell me some indulgences.

But seriously, can you tell me why the Infallible Catholic Dogma of Limbo(tm) is sending me to hell?

Dear JP,

And when did His Holiness ever say he was in Bulgaria to convert the Orthodox?

He did thank the Orthodox for ministering to Catholics during hard communist times.

Is it just his presence that overwhelms some Orthodox and makes them fall, slain in the Spirit?

I haven't seen any as yet, but who knows?

Orthodox Christians in other parts of the world, such as in Bulgaria, don't have hang-ups of the big Boogey-man from Rome, the Pope.

Russians sometimes do, although not all. And then there are those converts who are always going on about something . . .

Have a nice day!

Alex

Dear Friends,

Can someone please tell me how Limbo became "infallible?"

It is no longer an item in the Latin Catholic theological spectrum.

Only a die-hard convert with an anti-Catholic agenda would say otherwise.

Am I wrong?

Alex

No, you're right, friend Alex. Limbo was never a defined dogma. It popped up in catechisms as a POSSIBLE explanation for what happens to infants and other innocent children who die before baptism. It has never been infallibly declared as dogma and I will eat my sock if someone shows me otherwise.

In Christ,
mikey.

Dear Mikey,

As one fellow once wrote, "Limbo" is what a Catholic is in whenever he would like a quick response to a request from his bishop . . .

A "FreeMason" to a Catholic is someone who will fix the Church steps for free.

And the "Rosary" is a form of prayer that sometimes may feel goes on for five decades . . .

Alex

Limbo?

jporthodox's understanding of Catholicism seems to confirm he's (she's?) been in "limbo" for a while.


AmdG

Oh Alex,
I guess my sense of humor is overly obtuse. (Not as "punny" as yours, obviously...)

According to many Orthodox on the net (one particular listserv comes to mind), all of us "Roman Catholics" are REQUIRED to believe in Limbo as dogma. Which is one of the points they harp on as to why "Rome" is essentially just another religious organization.

And if they can state that with authority, what's to stop them, as jporthodox does, from saying that the Pope makes all these trips for the purpose of "converting Orthodox"?
Whew. Can I be obtuse again now, please?

Dear Lemko,

Well, Catholics might be under the impression that the "toll-houses" are required for Orthodox to believe in.

And they would be equally wrong.

Normally, this kind of thing about Limbo or what have you comes from a convert who had a bad grasp of Catholicism to begin with.

Hopefully, their Orthodox spiritual fathers will set them right about Orthodoxy .

One Orthodox convert friend was proud of the fact that Orthodoxy didn't have the doctrine of Purgatory. (I don't want to get into that whole issue, but am just illustrating here.)

An RC acquaintance said, "So you mean that if you aren't totally pure, which you need to be to get into Heaven, you will go to straight to Hell, since there's no Purgatory?"

Kind of sent shivers up my spine as well . . .

Alex

I haven't heard about the limbo until today, it's a little bit strange. I think that's more a medioeval legend than a religious dogma.
I thought that infants who die without baptism went to the earth paradise.

I also know that when Christ descended to the Hades, he saved the souls of those who died without knowing him (I supose this also includes those who died withou the baptism), remember that the Hades has no past or present.

Dear Remie,

Yes, Limbo has been likened to an earthly paradise for those who die without baptism.

But I think you correctly interpret the descent of Christ into Hades and "Limbo" has often been referred to in the past as "Hades."

At best, it has become a word implying one is "neither here nor there."

Alex

We all know what kind of cookies they serve in toll houses.

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Sharon,

As long as they're sugar-free, I'll have four.

Alex

As Father Seraphim Rose observed about his own Orthodox bretheren:
"'Cradles' have too much patience and not enough zeal; Converts have too much zeal and not enough patience".

Our goal, it would seem, is to find that blessed balance in between. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.
Subdeacon Randolph, a sinner

Sharon and Alex,

Toll houses

Your local puzzled Latin who does so need educating.

Toll houses are where cookie lovers go when they die. Don

(sorry Alex for stealing your lines)

Yes.. It is symptomatic of most converts who convert - away - from something and not - to something.

Many of this type of convert approach religion in the modern way of looking for it to change him. Looking for his religion and its practices - to make him a saint. If you spend time at school and study hard and apply what you learned - you become a doctor or something - right? If you join a gym and go there on schedule and do the rounds and repetitions - you lose weight and sculpt your body - yes?

We look out at the world and the people in it and its problems.. And we want to change ourselves and others - so we dedicate ourselves to our religion… we cherish its beliefs, we do its practices and we adhere to it with an inner dedication. We apply the church and all we think are its teachings to ourselves… and after an initial honeymoon… we find ourselves no happier. We then begin to recognize sin and hypocrisy in its members - after all - it is not working. Look at its failures to make its members - holy. It was all a veneer.

So we look around for another church, another set of beliefs and another set of practices. We bad mouth the last church - because within it we were not changed. Its beliefs and practices - did not change us from what we no longer wanted to be, into something much better that we do want to be.

Our problem is that we think of the church as, really, just another institution. Yes, it has God as its head - but we do not experience God on a day to day basis. God is an absentee Dean.

What is the problem? Have we not eaten the bread weekly? Have we not gone to confession but month after month we fall to the same secret sins - over and over until it is embarrassing to even mention it (yet again) to the priest? Do not I sit regularly and read the prescribed prayers? Do not I speak up for my church and preach it and Christ often, even when the occasion does not really call for it?

Here is our problem.

We treat holiness as a behavioral change. We want to notice a change in our behavior - after we have applied all the prescribed methods to change ourselves. We are in reality - Pavlov’s dogs. Our method is to manipulate and re-program our habits. The doctrines of our church we learn like there will be a test later. And when we do inevitable fall again to our secret sins - do not we re-dedicate ourselves to prayer (which we had slacked off on during the good days). Have we not cried very sincerely to God to change things around us - to smooth our way? And it is as if God were deaf. So THIS - must not be the ‘right’ church or else all we were doing should have changed us. Now that it has not changed me - I can look around and see that it really has not changed other members. They are secretly jealous. Secretly proud. Secretly greedy. Secretly hypocritical. No - this is not the right church .

What is missing - is Providence.

Since the church began, it is the daily cooperation with a living Providence, that sanctifies man. It is the daily molding, by God’s hands, of the clay, which forms the man into God’s image. And ultimately it is our cooperation with Providence, that makes us friends of God and not just servants.

It is because a person does not know the doctrine of Providence, nor that it is Providence alone which effects the changes in us, that a person looks to apply “methods” of behavioral change to himself.

Again, I say that the type of convert you are talking about, is running away from himself, and not running to - anything. And it is the failure of changing himself, that he is ultimately angry at. It would not matter what church he joined or belonged to…. As long as he treats the church as if it were school of behavioral modification… and knows nothing about Providence.

Quote from -Ray

"Here is our problem.

We treat holiness as a behavioral change. We want to notice a change in our behavior - after we have applied all the prescribed methods to change ourselves. We are in reality - Pavlov's dogs. Our method is to manipulate and re-program our habits. The doctrines of our church we learn like there will be a test later. And when we do inevitable fall again to our secret sins - do not we re-dedicate ourselves to prayer (which we had slacked off on during the good days). Have we not cried very sincerely to God to change things around us - to smooth our way? And it is as if God were deaf. So THIS - must not be the "right' church or else all we were doing should have changed us. Now that it has not changed me - I can look around and see that it really has not changed other members. They are secretly jealous. Secretly proud. Secretly greedy. Secretly hypocritical. No - this is not the right church .

What is missing - is Providence.

Since the church began, it is the daily cooperation with a living Providence, that sanctifies man. It is the daily molding, by God's hands, of the clay, which forms the man into God's image. And ultimately it is our cooperation with Providence, that makes us friends of God and not just servants. "


Dear -Ray,

What a reminder that theosis or growth into the Life of God is not a behavioral science!

It is a growth process that is ongoing for eternity. It is God's working in us and shaping us. Our work is to cooperate, with a greater or lesser degree of success, with Him.

We are but a small part of the working out of the Providence of God.

Thank you for the reminder.

Steve

Dear Angela,

You are a smart cookie yourself!

"Toll-houses" are an Eastern eschatological expression to denote a kind of Particular Judgement following death.

Some Fathers had visions of two angels accompanying the newly departed soul through about 20 "toll-houses" each denoting a particular virtue.

At each toll-house there is a demon who is the antithesis of the particular virtue who argues how the soul sinned against the virtue in life. The angels defend the soul and ultimately, having "won the argument," the soul goes on to the next "toll-house."

Hopefully, the soul will get through all of them with, well, "flying colours."

The toll-houses are sometimes mentioned in the liturgical prayers.

The Mother of God, by tradition, asked Her Son to be relieved of this ordeal at her Dormition.

This is why, on the icon of Our Lady's Dormition, Christ stands over Her bier, holding in His Hands the soul of His Mother and keeping anything evil from even approaching it.

Alex

Thank you Alex -- light begins to dawn

BTW may I say publicly [ after holidays it takes ages to catch up the the happenings that have occurred whilst we have been away ] thank you for that Athakist you[ and the Administrator ] posted. Abolutely wonderful . I have printed it out and put it with prayers that have become favourites of mine.

Thank you so much for the time and effort [ not to mention the writing materials] put into it's composition.

May Our Blessed Lady, Mary ever Virgin, Mother of us all and our Mistress, keep you in her tender care.

Angela

Dear Angela,

Yes, the Administrator kindly consented to post that here and I am happy for the lives it has touched.

The Administrator was also blessed to actually be in the presence of the Mother of God Herself in Her miraculous icon of Pochaiv.

She wanted him there. And she brought him to herself!

Alex

Ray-

What a great post. It has personally given me some food for thought. Thank you.

Columcille

Yes Columcille,

No other doctrine is more central to the church. And all other doctrines only make sense, and take their efficacies, from it.

Simply stated the doctrine of Providence is that all things and all events are under the total control and governance of God. God either directly wills that this or that happen to us, or he allows this or that to happen to us (due to our stubbornness and desire for things our own way or due to our tremendous insecurities). More than just governance (for that makes it sound as it things and events have some existence on their own and God just manages them). As Saint John put it so well “without Him, came to be, no-thing.” which in the original Hebrew and Greek a ‘thing’ included any event or experience.

Of course, Jesus said it too well in the Psalms “Behold, I have come to do your will.” and in the gospels “Your will be done.” “Who is my mother, my brother? He who does the will of my father.” expresses that we become adopted sons of God when his will is done in us. No longer servants (who do what they are told without understanding why) by now friends of God because of our knowing cooperation with God’s Providential actions and purposes. The one and only purpose of God through his Providential actions which form us as the potter forms the clay - is to change us - much deeper than intellectual learning of ways to act - but form us by the hammer of experiences that come to us each and every day.

It is the common path, that upon our journey to God, we at first see God’s will as rules, and laws, to follow. He is to us a moral teacher who offers us occasional hidden help if we act according to the moral precepts of the church. But if a person wishes to raise higher and become a saint (rather than just seem like one) then day by day, event by event… the Divine Doctor who knows us more intimately than we know ourselves - applies just the right medicine.

And what I am talking about should not just be stuck in terms of the Medieval saints nor concepts of the ancient East… we are all well aware today that if we peer inside ourselves - we are fragmented, divided against ourselves, and seldom does our apparent motivation hold up to scrutiny because beliefs, reactions, and ways to act and think are mostly motivated by the subconscious. We KNOW that. We do our best to change it by sheer will power or therapy (secular or religious) and manipulate or replace the “bad programming” with the “good” or socially desirable programming. We replace bad habit by creating good habits. And there is nothing wrong with this at all. However - if a person wants to skip the toll house or purgatory - they must accept it here. HERE - where we can cooperate with the changes God goads us (“Saul, it hurts you to kick against the goad.”).

Providence, as the actions and will of God applied to us - is available to all men of all times. It is not reserved for the Catholic or the Orthodox, but that same sun shines on all men. The means of sanctity are readily available to everyone…. The Jew, the Hindu, etc… even the atheist. There is nowhere and there is no time, no moment, when we are separated from God’s actions. As saint Paul said “I am convinced that there is nothing that can separate us from God.” simply because all good is directly will for and to us by and all evil that comes to us is directly allowed by God as medicine to cure us even in the subconscious layers. He - re-creates us.

For the Christian, there is no such thing as coincidence. But yet we need not know the plan and particular purpose of God in any particular event that comes to us - for that medicine to do its work.

If the common beliefs about God and his actions - were right - than the majority of men would be on their way to sainthood. Such beliefs as “God only occasionally involves himself if we pray hard enough” as if God sits off somewhere, ignored and forgotten, only to be moved to do something when enough heart felt pleading is directed his way - is a common belief. Intellectually - we may maintain that we believe something else - but as a society we see God in the way of Greek myth… where God is locked in battle with evil, the battle ground is the world, and the booty is the individual souls of men.

In any event, there are many good books about Providence as God’s daily will for us. It is the “secret” of the saints (in as much as it is ignored by everyone else).

http://www.thegenesisletters.com/Providence/Caussade/Default.htm


The efficacy of the sacraments comes to be with in the theater of daily Providence. God will not ‘save’ us - if we do not want to be saved…. Eventually, in this world, if we wish to become more that mysterious image of God - it takes our knowing cooperation with his will daily in the small things. This is why saint Paul said we are slaves, purchased by Christ. Our daily life and activity has been under the yoke of Egypt (when we did not know Christ) - now - we may be doing the same things during the day that we had done before - but our new master (the one who wants us to do it now) is Christ. Once we recognize that our daily life is anything BUT humdrum, happenstance, necessity and drudgery - we find we are awash in the actions of God, each event personally tailored for us, as a fish is surrounded by the waters of the ocean. And now you know where the symbol of a fish - came from.

Christ is Risen!

Perhaps the reason we converts at times appear to be so angry is that we have brought with us the hurts and pains that drove us away from the churches of our birth. It is in the healing power of the Holy Spirit in the Holy Orthodox and Catholic Church that we are healed physically and spiritually and made whole. Eventually the old baggage is left and we can begin to witness in love and not anger. That is when our witness is most powerful, as we share the Healing that the Lord has given us in the true church.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Thomas

What a very wise statement. I had been looking back at my life recently and wondering about where my journey was leading and in my confusion and perplexity the same type of thoughts kept rising. Thank you for saying it better than I could.

Maybe some of the anger is also due in part to the realisation that , in some respects, we have wasted valuable time - but was it really wasted ?

Dear Angela,

As St Augustine once said, "Late have I come to love Thee, O Lord!"

He was a bit angry at having lost time in loving God, to be sure.

But the time you mention is never wasted. The journey is itself a finding, an arrival. It is a struggle in which God Himself is our support and mainstay.

St Justin the Philosopher always wore his philosopher's robes that indicated to everyone that he sought the truth.

When he became a Christian, having found the Truth, he continued to wear his robes and is always represented in icons wearing them.

For St Justin, Christ is a never-ending discovery, journey and surprise.

Alex

Dear Alex:

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I know its got to be tough to listen to your friend. But it sounds like talking to you must be helping him in some spiritual way...?

If you provide an example of truthfulness, patience and forgiveness (as I'm sure you can and are doing), then perhaps you will help him on his spiritual journey. After all, people need the help of the faithful, who should always try - hard as it is! - to walk in imitation of Christ.

Peace and all good,
Anne

Dear Annie,

Yes, I told him that I will always be there for him.

I just recently got an e-mail from a mutual friend of the two of us.

He said he saw Jeff and that "he was the same."

I think I've helped more Orthodox Christians than Catholics in their spiritual struggles.

Doesn't that earn me some sort of merit somewhere?

God bless,

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Our Lady's Slave of Love:

A recent book I've read mentioned this about toll houses:

"A reference to a traditional belief in the existence of a series of stations in the air - often likened in Byzantine preaching to custom houses... that correspond to the vices and are manned by demons. Through these the soul must pass on its way to heaven; if its vices are found to outweigh its virtuous acts, it is taken down to hell. This belief became widespread among Orthodox Slavs chiefly as a result of the translation into Slavonic of a tenth-century Byzantine work, "Vision of Theodora," found in the Life of Basil the Younger by Gregory of Thrace. See G. Every, "Toll Gates on the Air Way," Eastern Churches Review 8 (1976): 139-51." [Hollingsworth, P. (trans.). "The Hagiography of Kievan Rus'." Cambridge, MA: Ukrainian Research Institute of Harvard University, p. 143 (fn. 385)].

Just some historical background with a follow-up article.

Concerning this thread's main topic, perhaps trying to have the angry convert look at their past worship experience as an essential and perhaps providential step in their life-long faith journey might help. After all, how can we compare and learn without knowing what's out there and sometimes falling? Essentially, though, also try to turn that bitterness into an acknowledgement that whatever we do, God's mercy and love for us makes anything possible.

God bless,
Christopher

Hello to All:
As someone "on a journey", I'd like to share some thoughts on this "conversion" issue:
I don't have any anger toward the Roman Rite/Latin Rite. Maybe I don't appreciate being kept in the dark about our sister (Eastern)traditions though(many post Vatican II have been). It is just very "raw" to be following a path that is so new, and so different, even though it is the same church. And it is a time in your spiritual life that you must rely solely on hearing God's voice in the Holy Spirit talking to your heart and soul. I am not attending the Byzantine Catholic Church because of so many things wrong with my Roman Rite Church, but those aspects do figure in, simply because many are major differences in the Liturgy. And yes, we are constantly being asked why, and told many untrue things. In addition, some people prefer to think of you as "flighty", though I have been a practicing Catholic for thirty some years, and continue. Its a very strange state. Don't forget to factor in issues of many Roman/Latin Rite folks coming from very liberal Catholic homes, which view the Eastern traditions as similar to widespread use of leaches in medicine for all ailments. It is a change in the way we worship our loving and giving God, and that is more profound for some of us than if we changed every other thing in our lives. But with God's great love and guidance, and considerable support from fine people such as this forum, we will learn and grow, in order to more reverently and devoutly serve our God, The Son and the Holy Spirit. It is a journey worth taking, and if you can offer any help to someone searching for a way to serve God, may you also be blessed.
In prayer,
MariM

Dear MariM,

Thanks for your post, and for a very important distinction. I think you are right, it is always so important to travel "toward" something. To come to the Byzantine Church because you love it and feel at home there.

Those who come, because they are primarily running away from something (for example, the Latin Church, for whatever reason), make a less worthy pilgrimage.
With prayers and best wishes for your journey! Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and assisting us in ours.

Elias

I’m currently working on converting to a more traditional Church, (RC or Orthodoxy) from a high Anglican parish. I think the anger stems from the fact that I had been in error for so long, and the sudden realisation of this error shakes the roots of faith. I’m no longer angry, but still a little shaken. I was happy living in the romantic world that high church Anglicanism provides but it lacks truth by imparting a bit of medieval imagination. Nobody likes to be wrong and this is, IMO, why some remain angry. As for people remaining the same after conversion I truly feel I am changing for the better. I understand that many are living in error just as I was and so I feel for them and their plight.

God bless,

Odo

Dear Ordo,

What you say makes great sense. It is hard to realize that what you know is sometimes not what reality is. It's not an uncommon sensation among us who are on this pilgimage.

I hope that your heart is soon filled with the joy of knowing the Truth in the Church to which He is leading you.

Steve

Might I just make a small point that God in the person of the Holy Spirit has always been present in peoples' lives. And while one may become uncomfortable or feel constricted in a particular community, it is the very real presence of the Holy Spirit in the person and in that particular church that initiated the pilgrimage. Thus, as Fr. Elias has noted, one should not be "fleeing" but rather "seeking", and (hard as it may sometimes be) be very grateful for the past experience and 'fellowship'. [Just LOVE that Olde English word!!] But, when the Holy Spirit nudges, then one must move on, but be ever vigilant to retain the due respect and love for one's former community that has provided the spiritual nourishment to initiate the pilgrimage.

Blessings to you in your search!!