First, I'm thanking God for finding this forum. I can see that I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as people here and that I have a great deal to learn. And it seems that there are at least a few discussions I should avoid...

I live in Oregon and I'm interested especially in meeting people in our Pacific Northwest region. I work as a union organizer. One of the books which helped me move to where I am today was "Out Of This Furnace" by Thomas Bell; I might well be a character in that book.

I have been Carpatho-Russian and Greek Orthodox for a very, very long time. A number of things have happened in recent years which have served to move me towards the Byzantine and Latin Rite Catholic Churches. It would be wrong for me to bore you with details; it should be enough to say that I feel the Greek Church left me. And I have fallen in love with what I have (re)discovered on this journey!

But there are lots of problems and I need to dialogue with someone about what is becoming a difficult transition. The wonderful Latin Rite church I found doesn't have a clue about the Eastern or Orthodox theologies and I was placed in RCIA. In RCIA I end up biting my tounge a great deal. Thankfully, they're not making me go through the entire process, but I do have to do a Profession of Faith and try to fit in somewhat before I can receive Confession and Communion. They make me feel welcome, they're a good community, but my heart weeps sometimes for our Eastern Liturgy and theology.

A biritual (Byzantine/Latin) priest 45 miles away showed compassion and heard my Confession and gave me Communion. But this priest is rather busy, not in great health and can't help me over the bumps in the road. And driving 45 miles every Sunday knocks me out after working 50-65 hours every week. When I expressed an interest in joining this church, I was strongly discouraged by a leading parishoner. He's as anti-Orthodox as many Orthodox are anti-Catholic. I don't want to have this fight. The theology and the Liturgy are there, but little community and little acceptance.

I have an appointment with a Ukrainian Catholic (Eastern Rite) priest in a two weeks. That church is about 60 miles away. I'm afraid to hope for too much and I'm getting tired of explaining my situation.

I'm still in love with the churches. I'm not complaining; I can see that I have much to be thankful for. I especially appreciate the no-nonsense, hands-on love the Latin and Byzantine Rite priests have shown me. But how hard can it be to move from being Greek Orthodox to being Byzantine and/or Latin Catholic?

I have set for myself a rather rigorous structure for prayer, fasting, study and church support and involvement. Sometimes I make it and sometimes I don't.

I need your prayers and your advice. It may easier for everyone if you reach me off-forum at either rjrossi@navicom.com or rossib@opeuseiu.org; I don't want to detract from other discussions.

I apologize for the long post!

bob

Dear Bob,

I feel for your predicament. If only it were easier to find one's spiritual niche and have one's preferred church be right on one's doorstep! (Welcome to the Eastern Rite, as someone once told me!) As a fellow member of this forum, I can only promise you my prayers and deepfelt empathy, as many of us here struggle with the desire for living authentic Eastern spirituality in the desert of geographical distance from Byzantine churches. As a canonical crossover from Latin to Byzantine Rite, my family primarily worships at our local Latin Rite parish, and for the big feasts we try to make the trek to our Byzantine church (monastery). It is a challenge. Yet I try to follow the Eastern liturgical calendar in spirit, and try to keep on hand Byzantine prayerbooks and spiritual reading for supplemental growth. Keep up the prayers and spiritual regime, and keep praying to find your way in today's complicated world. Peace - and remember the message of this holy season - God is with us!

Charitina

Welcome,

I sense both the thrill and the frustration of your journey. Pray that God will use the Evangelization efforts begun at Whiting, Indiana. Who knows? We may be meeting someday.

www.byzantineevangelization.com

CDL

I am sure that you have done this but have you tried other Orthodox jurisidictions like the OCA??

Bob,

First off the Latin parish has no right to deny Communion to a praticing Orthodox Christian let alone put them in RCIA. Second even if you join the Catholic CHurch you retain your ritual tradition so you would become a Greek Catholic even if you join through a Latin parish, so that parishioner has no business discouraging you from attending a parish of your native tradition. I would call the chancery of the Latin diocese, expalin your situation and have the bishop inform the pastor of correct canonical procedure. I that doesn't work I would make the sacrifice and drive to the Byzantine parish.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Bob,

How close are you to this church or is this the church in which you experienced some bias?

St. Irene the Virgin and Great-Martyr

4630 N Maryland Ave Portland
Administrator: Rev Frank Knusel

Phone: 503-281-6744

E-Mail: FJKnusel@earthlink.net

Mr. Rossi,

Good luck and God be with you. It can be *hard* in America, with its vast distances, to find an Eastern Catholic parish. You have my sympathy. You also have my prayers. You *can* find your way.

-- John

I certainly can understand how one could feel, disconnected from the GOA. What a unique situation! At least in my experience, I more often see people leaving the BC church for the Orthodox churches for better spiritual fullfillment. However, I support your decision if your spiritual needs are not being fullfilled by the Orthodox Churches, to our shame.

If the eastern catholic churches in your area are not meeting your needs any better than the Greeks, I don't see a point in leaving the Orthodox Church, unless there is something more. I would agree with the suggestion to look for other Orthodox jurisdictions, especially the OCA. I am a member of an OCA parish and am very happy here. You mentioned the Carpatho-Russians- I can only assume you weren't happy there either. A shame, I've heard good things about them. They should be very similar to the Byzantine Catholic Church since they originally were BCs.

Someone pointed out that the Latin church cannot deny you Communion. It is my understanding of Catholic rules that the opposite is true. I was always told when I was Catholic that, according to the Catholic church Orthodox are allowed to receive in the eastern catholic churches, but not in the latin; and that according to the Orthodox Church, Orthodox Christians are forbidden to receive in Catholic Churches (a rule I find to be... more Orthodox triumphalism than anything substantial and am not opposed to receiving in eastern catholic churches, and possible western, although I have not since I left.) If someone knows the specifics on this I would appreciate clarification on the specific rules.

Please do not assume that since I left the Catholic church for the Orthodox I would discourage you from joining the Catholic Church. I believe you should go where your needs can be met. I am both Pro-Orthodox and Pro-Catholic, even though I have criticisms of both. As a former Catholic, I would be interested to hear the details of why you are dissatisfied with Orthodoxy.

I sympathize with your problem. I know how hard it is to move from once church to another. I initially had a hard time finding an Orthodox parish. Hang in there and trust in the Holy Spirit and you will find a home.

Feel free to email me, nfinzer@gmail.com

NF

Oh, and what is RCIA?

Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults. In the Latin Church this is the ordinary process whereby adults are initiated into the Church. RCIA is marked by various stages (inquiry, catechumenate, conversion, purification) and rites (acceptance, election) culminating in the the reception of the Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist) during the Mass of the Easter Vigil. Initiation is followed by the period known as mystagogia during the Paschaltide. This period of mystagogia is ideally a life long process wherby the newly enlightened believer continues to explore the sacred mysteries and participates in the very life of the Holy Trinity.

Thank you Fr. Deacon for the clarification.

Deacon Lance is correct. Why in the world would they make you go to RCIA? That is an insult to you, your background and your intelligence.

It is not meant as an insult. Just as it is not meant to be an insult to all of the baptized Christians who seek Confirmation in the Catholic Church.

The problem is that while those who are validly baptized and seeking entry into the Church should not be required to go through the entire program of RCIA - the vast majority of parishes do not have in place any other program for catechesis for those seeking to join the Catholic Church.

It is a lack of preparedness on the part of many Latin Rite parishes (and a failing which seems to be widespread in the U.S.) to be sure, but it is not meant to insult anyone.

Carole,

I don't believe that it is meant as an insult either, although from what I've heard about some of these programs they are insulting by default for everyone.

When I converted from being a United Methodist pastor of many years to the BC Church and having given administered the closest I knew to communion thousands of times I waited through the catechesis and Chrismation before I received communion. I was happy to do it even though it seemed very strange to me. I had found the "pearl of great price". Why would I risk losing it?

CDL

Why are people freaking out about his being placed in RCIA?

No, it is not required; it may not even be ideal. But I would suggest taking it as an opportunity to (re)learn some things about the Holy Catholic Church's Latin Rite. I would view this as a blessing, not a curse.

Welcome back to the Catholic Church! With a good Italian name like that, this is where you belong!

Seriously though, perhaps you can be the one to bring some knowledge of the Christian East into your Latin Rite church. What a wonderful opportunity, and one you would be deprived of if you attend an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox church.

Logos Teen

A warm welcome to you! Welcome first and foremost to the Greek-Catholic Church, where we are happy to have you aboard (even though you may not always be able to tell that we're happy!). That someone finds his way to us is a great joy. We hope that you can manage to make our joys and sorrows your joys and your sorrows.

Welcome also to the Forum, where we often look as though we all hate each other, but in reality we enjoy one another's company and where you have a good contribution to make.

Christ is amongst us!

Incognitus

Garrett- The problem is that RCIA is just that: the rite of Christian initiation; ie, of baptism and confirmation [chrismation]. Thus it is properly required of those who have not received those sacraments.
In the US it is routinely required of anyone, baptized or not, confirmed or not, who is seeking admission to the Catholic Church.
From what I have gathered discussing the matter with priests, this is more a matter of limited resources and personnel than ill will, but still it is less than ideal, and less than theologically correct.
-Daniel

Dearest Friends, Thank you for the warm responses which came unexpectedly. I will try to reply to the points made, all of which were helpful, and you can move on to more serious things. My problems should not take up so much time! If someone wants to check in with me, in-group our privately, to see how its going--that will be great! I did not mean to provoke a controversy. I can always be reached at either rjrossi@navicom.com or rossib@opeuseiu.org.

I do not want to leave the impression that my problems form around distance from a church. I will travel 60 miles if I have to, but I cannot do that every week or participate fully in the life of a church over such distance. Perhaps the Latin church here would be my "backup" (for lack of a better term)--a great priest with incredible homilies, a good community, the opportunity to praise God--but it isn't home. And the problem then becomes functioning in that environment without hurting anyone or despairing and living an almost schizophrenic spiritual life. I don't know how to do this.

One poster thought that my problem is with Orthodoxy. Perhaps it is. I only left the Carpatho-Russian church of my younger days because I had to move west for work; even the worst times in that church were good. That church was in West Virginia, so Charitina and I have something in common.

I want to spare you an account of my feelings about Orthodoxy. Let it be sufficient to say that I feel left behind by the American Orthodox churches. Going to the OCA would not help me or them, as one poster sugested. It took several pilgrimages for me--to Serbia and Palestine and to holy places here in the USA--to see what is lacking in myself and in my church experience. It also took hearing a few virulently anti-Catholic diatribes by Orthodox priests and faithful to push me forward. I understand and love hearing someone say they are "Pro-Orthodox and Pro-Catholic." For me, it isn't a contest, but something given by the Holy Spirit. Contests and arguing are barriers to me.

The Orthodox and Greek Catholic churches of my childhood in Pennsylvania and New York left me with nothing but good memories. But over 50 years many things have changed and I have had to move around.

The poster who said that RCIA is good for me is so right, because it has been more than 30 years since I paid close attention to the Latin Church. Also, this RCIA experience has allowed me to meet people I would not otherwise know and has taught me some needed skills.

I do feel occasionally insulted in RCIA; maybe this is also good for me. I often feel sadness; RCIA doesn't challenge us and is too easy and bland. Difficulties are sometimes settled by a seminarian saying that something is right or wrong because it is in the Catechism. Reflections are kept on the level one might find in many Protestant churches. But the Eastern Liturgy MOVES us; our "naivete" about the saints and the teachings received from our Church Mothers and Fathers gives us an edge and forces us to think creatively--and after that RCIA seems lacking. RCIA tends to "dumb down" theology and concepts like Theosis aren't even mentioned.

Canonical or not--I am vaguely aware of what the law says--a priest told me to do this. And even when a priest's advice has been wrong, it has always worked to my eventual benefit. Besides that, it is hypocritical for me to go looking for the hands-on practical love of the Church and only take from it what I want or what benefits me most immediately. I'm not going to contest this placement in RCIA. I'll continue to go and keep biting my tounge.

One poster suggested that I go to St. Irene's in Portland. That was where I have been going. That poor elderly priest is not well, has two churches to cover over a very long distance and the community seems rather divided. The priest shouldn't be expected to do more for me than he already has. The leading community member who discouraged me from joining did so by saying that I must "anathemitize" the GOA and be "anathemized" by them before I can join his church. He topped it off with an anti-Italian comment or two. More barriers. Regardless of whether or not this is correct, I'm not going to force my way into a church, make anyone uncomfortable or create room for future dissension.

I'm not sure about the equivalency of Rites that one of the posters mentions. I would not say that the GOA or Carpatho-Russians (also part of the GOA)are ethnically or jurisdictionally equivalent to Greek Catholics--at least not in front of some Carpatho-Russians or Rusyns I know! We live in very mixed communities.

In response to one post, I want to say that it is my goal to evangalize and do Eastern Catholic cathetical work here. I purchased the materials knowing that rhere are other Eastern Christians in the area. We don't know one another and people have drifted to the Episcopal and Latin Rite churches. (I also live near the center of a huge Old Believer community, but that is another subject..) I wrote to several Eastern Rite church leaders to ask for direction in this effort but I did not get any responses. I will try again.

Again, THANKS! to everyone for your prayers and kindness. May I make one more request? In two weeks I have a meeting scheduled with a Ukrainian priest. I'm afraid to hope for too much after these recent problems, but perhaps someone here can offer me some pointers. I'm not the crank or dissenter that I may sound like. I love our Eastern spirituality and I'm looking for a church home which will help me grow in the faith I have given most of my life to. How can I best express this to a priest?

My apologies for another long post!

Faithfully,

bob

Bob,

Being a newbie to the ways of Eastern Catholicism, I do not have much advice to offer.

However, I just want to offer you my prayers and support. I pray that your meeting with the Ukrainian priest goes well, and I pray that God willing, your evangelization/catechatical desires come to fruition.

I am sorry for the animosity you experienced at the St. Irene's.

Would it help Bob to just go along to your nearest Byzantine Catholic Church and not do anything formal just yet, until your thoughts sort themselves out You are very welcome in any of our churches anywhere.

When I lived in Melbourne (Australia) I used to go to the Russian Catholic Centre and a number of the congregation who attended everything were Orthodox and many Orthodox would turn up as various feast would occur (there are 3 or 4 different Russian Orthodox juristictions in the city). There was an a certain degree of familiarity and ease, no one was refused anything be it confession or communion and the number of times the sub deacon was Orthodox I can't recall. The purists might be horrified but to us it was not an issue and if they did not like it they could go elsewhere.

Give it time and when/if you feel the need to formalise things then consult with the Parish Priest. Dont rush into anything. Take it easy and let your thoughts and feelings settle first. A wise monk once advised to never make decisions while your emotions are all over the place, as you will probably make a bad decision.

Thanks to Pavel and MadeforCommunion for your kind thoughts! Really, the kindness in this group is remarkable. And Pavel's example of hands-on practical theology is one thing I love about the Eastern churches.

Pavel, I'm the kind of person who needs the church and structure and, anyway, I don't think I'm rushing into something. I can't imagine living outside of the Church, terrible sinner that I am. Without the tie I'm lost; I've known this for more than 20 years. But your kind words do give me pause to reflect.

I am blessed to have some choices. What I need is help in clarifying matters, hearinmg from others if I'm off base or not and figuring out how to work into one of the two nearby Eastern churches. (HELP!) I even feel blessed to have these problems, but they are problems none the less. And I don't have others around me to talk to about this.

And, you know, I think that my experience may be somewhat typical of what others go through and maybe matters will change if we discuss them. If I were a weaker person, I might have given up or been drawn uncritically into RCIA or returned to what has become a very sectarian and prejudiced Orthodoxy and never felt the warmth of the Eastern and Latin churches. I have been struggling intensively with this for 3 years, since a trip to Palestine, so it feels like the Holy Spirit has been guiding the journey and that I have to learn how to listen and obey. Many of the posts I'm reading here have reassured me that I'm on the right path, but I can't work this out outside of the Church.

Faithfully,

bob

I was Baptized but not confirmed, and I had to go through RCIA. In my case, althought I was already familiar with a lot of the material, and I was in a small class, I enjoyed RCIA. I got to know some people from mjy parish, and that was great.

But there was a lot we didn't go over in RCIA, sometimes I would ask questions that I could tell were kind of beyond the normal scope of the program. Our pastor and the DRE were great -- and didn't discourage me at all.

I'd still like to go to a religious education program for the Byzantine Rite, if there were such a thing available to me.

A marvelous thing happened last night.

When I went to RCIA, prepared for the Latin ritual I had qualms about, the priest told me that he had awoken at 4:00 am with a strong feeling that I should not have to go through the Profession of Faith. We instead did a really nice welcoming ritual so now I'm recognized as an official member of that community. After that, the Sister directing the RCIA asked me to give an impromptu explanation of the icon of St. John the Baptist and I think that I did a credible job. The Priest and the Sister had both read a CNEWA pamphlet on the Eastern Churches. It is too little to say that I was flying for all of last night and for most of today. I think that I have God and many people to thank for this--and especially people in this forum. Your prayers helped!

The next concrete step is to meet with a Ukrainian priest here next week. I can use your prayers and pointers!

I also received two clarifying e-mails from the leading member of the Byzantine Church in Portland who I mentioned in my previous posts. After reading his side of it all, I have to apologize to him and to all of you if I was a source of anxiety, dissent, misunderstanding or quibbling. Reasonable people can disagree, and in my sinful state I also misunderstood what was being said. May God lift all of our blinders and remove from us all barriers to brotherly love!

Faithfully,

bob

Dear Bob,

One of my friends left a reformed orthodox (protestant doctrine, eastern liturgy) church to become Catholic after 6 years of regularly worshipping at the Catholic Church along with studying theology. He didn't officially become Catholic until about 4 years ago, but even with all that academic knowledge he had to go to RCIA (there was no Eastern church nearby). Anyhow, although my friend knew everything that was taught there - it turned out to be a valuable lesson for the others. He became a teaching and learning tool for the 20-or-so other Catechumenates.

You are a blessing for those others, especially to open them up to the hidden riches of the Catholic east. These others may share their knowledge with others, and on and on. The light of the east is shared with a host of others through your witness...

Amen.

Dear Bob,

Welcome!

When I read some comments by Orthodox posters here, I sometimes want to go over to the Latin Church myself . . .

Alex

Bob,
Life can be crazy. I attended the UGCC for a long time and it took a while. I would still go to the Latin Church once in a while. I even had a three high mass stint in a rebellion against someone (once you get over the gregorian chant.. and the fact that when you were a kid serving at a convent 3-5 times a week with the nuns saying how they missed the latin and gregorian chant you tend to want to see it).
I was being pulled by certain people and being told that I shouldn't abandon the Latin church..
Then those people stopped pressuring me. This was after I attended the UGCC for quite a while too that they made me feel torn.
Now I am on my own path. I have learned to not let certain people try to pull me in their direction. Although I am sure that they will try again when they find out my path.. but I will have to stand my ground and take it.
So, I am glad that you are following your path.
And my roundabout point is that I am glad you shared with us so I would share with you that I myself have been in similiar shoes as you.