I help run a Bible study at our parish.

Last night we read and discussed Luke 15-18

Luke 17:34-36 says;
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.
35 There will be two women grinding together; one will be taken and the other left."
36 And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

One of the parishioners asked about this. We also have a born-again christian who joined us, this was his first visit. He spoke that these verses support the protestant view of the Rapture. Also a couple of the Catholics attending thought of the Rapture as they have not been taught correctly.

So I am looking for any Catholic resources that refute the Rapture and put forward the correct Catholic Teaching on the subject.

In Christ,
David

Of course, that verse does not support the "Rapture" since the body that is not taken is the one that survives and is not eaten by the scavenging birds.

A good source is A Second Look at the Second Coming by T. L. Frazier. He's Orthodox (former RC), but I don't remember anything polemical in it about anyone.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: moronikos ]

I have a friend taht is Greek Orthodox, but was a minister for 27 years who wrote a book very recently on this particular subject. when it is published, i will let you know.

What really confuses the bee-jeepers out of me is the hyper-inflated concern and interest about the rapture ... while by-passing the rapture of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost during the here-and-now.

It's not a millenium or a post-millenium, but TODAY! Didn't anyone listen to the priest's prayers at the blessing of the waters on Theophany? TODAY! NOW! EMMANUEL!

Hence, the reason why Jesus' only title he used to describe himself, the Son of Man, does not serve as a basis for christology. The End did not come and reflections on Jesus' ontology concentrated on his Lordship and later, his Pre-existence. The Church became a vehicle of his presence in the meantime.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Edwin ]

How to refute "The Rapture"?

Tell yer Protestant buddies they shouldn't mistake nitrogen narcosis for spiritual ecstasy!

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: NDHoosier ]

I haven't read it yet, but there is a brand spanking new book out by Paul Thigpen that deals with this issue:

"The Rapture Trap : A Catholic Response to 'End Times' Fever"

I have found two articles, which is sort of what I am looking for.

Thanks for the books mentioned though, I can use those in future study.

I am looking for articles, because they are shorter and I can read them and then discuss them next Monday (01/14/02).

The articles I found, are The Rapture from Catholic Answers and LaHaying the Rapture on Thick from Envoy Magazine.

Both of these are Latin Catholic Resources. I was wondering if there are any articles from an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox perspective.

Thanks for the help so far!

In Christ,
David

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

David wrote: "I was wondering if there are any articles from an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox perspective."


I don't think Easterners are so concerned with 'the end' as much as some Westerners. The emphasis is on the 'now' or 'Today.' The word 'today' is everywhere in the prayers and hymns of the liturgies. God is the here-and-now. "GOD IS WITH US" as the song goes.

Edwin,
With all due respect.....

This is the second time you have made this comment.

So for those Catholics who hold to the mistaken belief that the Rapture is compatible with Catholic Belief and Teachings, and for the Evangelical Christian who has joined our Bible Study group, I should just respond to them with what? It doesn't matter what matters is now?

I don't think that would be a good idea. After all we started the Bible study with the intention of showing what the Catholic Church believes.

Here is our mission statement (I guess thats what you could call it).

A Comprehensive scriptural study based on the Holy Scriptures, complimented by quotations from the early Church Fathers, contemporary Church theologians, and Church's Holy Traditions.

We also placed two lines of the scriptures on our handouts.

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. Psalm 1:1-2

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17


With this in mind, that is way I am looking for resouces. No where is there any "hyper-inflated concern", and I kind of resent the implication made by these replies of yours.

Let me apologize that myself and my group are not as educated or as focused as you seem to be.

David

Without being too Jesuitical on this, I think that one must absolutely clarify that which is of Scripture and that which is of 'interpretation'.

We know and belive that Christ will come again. The question is: what will happen at that moment? Some Protestants believe that everything will "stop" and that the 'saved' will just disappear. (We've got a lot of bumper stickers around here that warn that the placarded car will be 'sin conductor' or 'driverless' when the rapture comes.)

There is no basis for this in Scripture. It is theologizing.

My own response is: if Christ has come to save mankind, then at His second coming, He will bless the saved/baptized, and will show His mercy to the others.

Why would one expect that 'time' will cease? Were this true, then the saved would go to 'heaven' immediately and the non-saved would go immediately into non-existence and the world would end. There wouldn't be anybody around to observe the transition of the 'saved'. The theological understanding is just inconsistent. If the end-time comes, and the saved are outta-here, why expect that time would continue on for the un-saved? (I suspect it's just 'one-ups-manship': Nyah na nyah na Nyah Yah!!! We win!! You lose!!!) Real Christian, eh? Just like Christ modeled to us in the Scriptures. Beat the bastard un-saved down!

These people are just deluded into believeing that they are "Christian". They're not. They're just Fascists in Christian garb. What about the 'love of neighbor' thing? Guess it was just a misprint.

Blessings!

David,

I'd forget the 'academic articles' for the time being. Byzantine theology is reflected in the prayers and hymns of the church. I'd look there.

My comments about "today" is due to the fact that this is the emphasis in many of our prayers. One of our favorite hymns is "God is with us!"

Eschatology is always in the mind of our theological mindset, but not as much as the here-and-now. Our Lord taught us to pray "Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven." Theosis, not eschatology, is the concern; cooperation with the Holy Spirit (a.k.a. 'synergy').

As for the concerns of the 'rapture' and similar things, you should know that the Book of Revelation is NEVER read in our churches even though we accept it in the canon of the NT. Byzantines avoided this text for good reason - it lends itself to bizzare interpretation - given the literalist and fundamentalist exegesis today (with a science of numerology to boot!).

"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17"


David,
Maybe you should note that this particular passage refers ONLY to the Old Testament - since the NT was not compiled at the time. Paul (assuming that he was the author of the Letter to Timothy) wrote at least twenty years before the first Gospel of Mark and around 40 to 50 years before John's Gospel. So, I guess this passage limits your biblical scope.

Edwin,

Now, brother, did you really have to write that last sentence? "I guess this passage limits your biblical scope" seems a bit cheeky given that David already is a bit sensitive.

A brief note on this comment of yours:

Eschatology is always in the mind of our theological mindset, but not as much as the here-and-now. Our Lord taught us to pray "Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven." Theosis, not eschatology, is the concern; cooperation with the Holy Spirit (a.k.a. 'synergy').

Since "eschatology" began with the Incarnation then the "here and now" is eschatology. It is both/and.

Dan Lauffer

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Dan Lauffer ]

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[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Edwin ]

DavidB ,

There is a book out by Ascension Press titled 'Rapture Trap'. It will answer all of your questions.