I help run a Bible study at our parish.

Last night we read and discussed Luke 15-18

Luke 17:34-36 says;
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.
35 There will be two women grinding together; one will be taken and the other left."
36 And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

One of the parishioners asked about this. We also have a born-again christian who joined us, this was his first visit. He spoke that these verses support the protestant view of the Rapture. Also a couple of the Catholics attending thought of the Rapture as they have not been taught correctly.

So I am looking for any Catholic resources that refute the Rapture and put forward the correct Catholic Teaching on the subject.

In Christ,
David

Of course, that verse does not support the "Rapture" since the body that is not taken is the one that survives and is not eaten by the scavenging birds.

A good source is A Second Look at the Second Coming by T. L. Frazier. He's Orthodox (former RC), but I don't remember anything polemical in it about anyone.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: moronikos ]

I have a friend taht is Greek Orthodox, but was a minister for 27 years who wrote a book very recently on this particular subject. when it is published, i will let you know.

What really confuses the bee-jeepers out of me is the hyper-inflated concern and interest about the rapture ... while by-passing the rapture of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost during the here-and-now.

It's not a millenium or a post-millenium, but TODAY! Didn't anyone listen to the priest's prayers at the blessing of the waters on Theophany? TODAY! NOW! EMMANUEL!

Hence, the reason why Jesus' only title he used to describe himself, the Son of Man, does not serve as a basis for christology. The End did not come and reflections on Jesus' ontology concentrated on his Lordship and later, his Pre-existence. The Church became a vehicle of his presence in the meantime.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Edwin ]

How to refute "The Rapture"?

Tell yer Protestant buddies they shouldn't mistake nitrogen narcosis for spiritual ecstasy!

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: NDHoosier ]

I haven't read it yet, but there is a brand spanking new book out by Paul Thigpen that deals with this issue:

"The Rapture Trap : A Catholic Response to 'End Times' Fever"

I have found two articles, which is sort of what I am looking for.

Thanks for the books mentioned though, I can use those in future study.

I am looking for articles, because they are shorter and I can read them and then discuss them next Monday (01/14/02).

The articles I found, are The Rapture from Catholic Answers and LaHaying the Rapture on Thick from Envoy Magazine.

Both of these are Latin Catholic Resources. I was wondering if there are any articles from an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox perspective.

Thanks for the help so far!

In Christ,
David

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

David wrote: "I was wondering if there are any articles from an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox perspective."


I don't think Easterners are so concerned with 'the end' as much as some Westerners. The emphasis is on the 'now' or 'Today.' The word 'today' is everywhere in the prayers and hymns of the liturgies. God is the here-and-now. "GOD IS WITH US" as the song goes.

Edwin,
With all due respect.....

This is the second time you have made this comment.

So for those Catholics who hold to the mistaken belief that the Rapture is compatible with Catholic Belief and Teachings, and for the Evangelical Christian who has joined our Bible Study group, I should just respond to them with what? It doesn't matter what matters is now?

I don't think that would be a good idea. After all we started the Bible study with the intention of showing what the Catholic Church believes.

Here is our mission statement (I guess thats what you could call it).

A Comprehensive scriptural study based on the Holy Scriptures, complimented by quotations from the early Church Fathers, contemporary Church theologians, and Church's Holy Traditions.

We also placed two lines of the scriptures on our handouts.

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. Psalm 1:1-2

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17


With this in mind, that is way I am looking for resouces. No where is there any "hyper-inflated concern", and I kind of resent the implication made by these replies of yours.

Let me apologize that myself and my group are not as educated or as focused as you seem to be.

David

Without being too Jesuitical on this, I think that one must absolutely clarify that which is of Scripture and that which is of 'interpretation'.

We know and belive that Christ will come again. The question is: what will happen at that moment? Some Protestants believe that everything will "stop" and that the 'saved' will just disappear. (We've got a lot of bumper stickers around here that warn that the placarded car will be 'sin conductor' or 'driverless' when the rapture comes.)

There is no basis for this in Scripture. It is theologizing.

My own response is: if Christ has come to save mankind, then at His second coming, He will bless the saved/baptized, and will show His mercy to the others.

Why would one expect that 'time' will cease? Were this true, then the saved would go to 'heaven' immediately and the non-saved would go immediately into non-existence and the world would end. There wouldn't be anybody around to observe the transition of the 'saved'. The theological understanding is just inconsistent. If the end-time comes, and the saved are outta-here, why expect that time would continue on for the un-saved? (I suspect it's just 'one-ups-manship': Nyah na nyah na Nyah Yah!!! We win!! You lose!!!) Real Christian, eh? Just like Christ modeled to us in the Scriptures. Beat the bastard un-saved down!

These people are just deluded into believeing that they are "Christian". They're not. They're just Fascists in Christian garb. What about the 'love of neighbor' thing? Guess it was just a misprint.

Blessings!

David,

I'd forget the 'academic articles' for the time being. Byzantine theology is reflected in the prayers and hymns of the church. I'd look there.

My comments about "today" is due to the fact that this is the emphasis in many of our prayers. One of our favorite hymns is "God is with us!"

Eschatology is always in the mind of our theological mindset, but not as much as the here-and-now. Our Lord taught us to pray "Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven." Theosis, not eschatology, is the concern; cooperation with the Holy Spirit (a.k.a. 'synergy').

As for the concerns of the 'rapture' and similar things, you should know that the Book of Revelation is NEVER read in our churches even though we accept it in the canon of the NT. Byzantines avoided this text for good reason - it lends itself to bizzare interpretation - given the literalist and fundamentalist exegesis today (with a science of numerology to boot!).

"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17"


David,
Maybe you should note that this particular passage refers ONLY to the Old Testament - since the NT was not compiled at the time. Paul (assuming that he was the author of the Letter to Timothy) wrote at least twenty years before the first Gospel of Mark and around 40 to 50 years before John's Gospel. So, I guess this passage limits your biblical scope.

Edwin,

Now, brother, did you really have to write that last sentence? "I guess this passage limits your biblical scope" seems a bit cheeky given that David already is a bit sensitive.

A brief note on this comment of yours:

Eschatology is always in the mind of our theological mindset, but not as much as the here-and-now. Our Lord taught us to pray "Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven." Theosis, not eschatology, is the concern; cooperation with the Holy Spirit (a.k.a. 'synergy').

Since "eschatology" began with the Incarnation then the "here and now" is eschatology. It is both/and.

Dan Lauffer

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Dan Lauffer ]

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[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Edwin ]

DavidB ,

There is a book out by Ascension Press titled 'Rapture Trap'. It will answer all of your questions.

Originally posted by DavidB:
"I help run a Bible study at our parish.
Last night we read and discussed Luke 15-18"

The Evangelical concept of the Rapture is based upon the belief that Christ will come again in a similar way that he came at the time of the crucifixion and resurrection (but this time in his human resurrected body) and that it will be a historical event (geo-political) and usher in a 1000 year rule of Christ and a new world government under himself. There are variations on an anti-Christ taking over all world governments and Protestants roots believe that the anti-Christ is the Pope.

It is all based upon fanciful interpretation of the book of Revelation and the mis-understanding of Matthew 24 … as applying to a “second” coming at some date in the future. Christ considered the time of his “coming” and his revelation as the messiah - as the moment of his death and resurrection. By that event he considered that his Father would reveal to all men of all times - that Jesus is the Son of God (of the nature of God).

The concept that Christ will come in a ‘second coming’ at some future date in the time and space of world history was condemned by the Church (pre schism) as Millenarnism. I am sure you can look that up in the Catechism after you figure out the correct spelling.

The Orthodox Church expresses the coming of Christ after his resurrection as a personal experience, a spiritual event of mystical union before physical death or at the moment of judgment after death. That event is outside of time (the body) and a spiritual event (takes place in eternity).

A key here is that ‘time’ is a human experience, a human measurement of events, and has no objective reality outside of a human experience. Time did not exist before a human was there to experience it because time is specifically a human experience. When your body dies - you are no longer bound to the time and space of your physical body - so for you - time ends. Time after all is a human measurement of events within time and space.

This 1000 year rein misinterpretation arose a few hundred years after the apostles but came to a head during the Byzantine empire (a union of Church and Empire)… when .. It became apparent that if true… Constantinople and the Byzantine empire would therefore also not be the true Church of Christ as it too, as a government, would pass away to be replaced by the true Church and Kingdom of God.

The count of 1000 years is a Jewish symbol of an indeterminate length, a ‘touch’ as it were, of eternity.

The Catholic Church teaches that Christ, as the Son of Man (his human nature) came once - and was fully revealed - no further historical revelation of his Son of Man human nature (normal or resurrected) will step into human history again. There is no further or future revelation of his human nature. A personal and private revelation of his resurrected human nature may be possible on an individual bases - that is up to God. That is why the years of the world are split into those years counting up to the revelation of Christ (B.C. Before Christ) and those years looking back to the revelation of Christ (A.D. After the Dimension). There is a before and after - and nothing else.


Specifically as regarding this line …
34 “I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.”

Paul gives the meaning of this when he said that we are composed of two men, (the ‘old man’ and the ‘new man‘). We are composed of two natures. Body (sensate and physical nature) and spirit (intellect and mind). The Law of the body (habits, emotions, animal nature) and the Law of the mind (spirtual faculties of mind). We are not to be fixated to the ways and wants of body nature. Our spiritual nature may experience the risen Christ (enlightenment of the intellect) but our sensate nature will not (deadness of being servants of habits and emotions). One is taken (our spiritual nature) and the other is not (our physical nature).

The setting and context of the two scriptural quotes you make is this…

Beginning at 17:22 let us see what he is talking about.

There shall come a time (when they are under persecution) in which the apostles shall desire to see again Christ’s human and resurrected nature… to assure them and comfort them - but the time in human history allotted for his human nature to be present to us - in the whole of human history - is as quick and short as the time it takes lightening to flash across the night sky. Once they witness the crucifixion and resurrection - they must go on faith from then on. And so must we 2000 years later. One might estimate that from the ‘beginning’ to the time of Christ it was some 4000 years? And after the time of Christ it has been 2000 years and counting. His 33 years and his especially his 3 days (crucifixion/resurrection) is as but a quick flash of lighting (the light being the time he was with us and the night being all the years of darkness without his human presence).

At the time of his crucifixion most everyone will be going about their daily lives (eating, drinking, etc..) it shall be a lone event and almost everyone will disbelieve in him but that dis-interested disbelief of the majority is to their own spiritual destruction (the end of the Jewish Temple cult). Since he is talking about his own crucifixion and resurrection he is talking about the Jews at that time - but we could also extend this to each of us going about all our other stuff and being surprised by death and judgment (like a thief - unseen and unheard - it comes into our house).

30: Even as no one believed Noah nor Lot - and they went about their daily stuff - so shall it be at the ‘hour’ (moments) of his crucifixion and resurrection when God shall bring his wrath down upon all humanity (but upon his own son in our stead) ‘for upon him were laid all our sins’. The wrath that should fall upon us all at the very moment of sinning - fell upon Him instead so that we might have time to turn - accept Him - and then willingly accept our own crucifixion because of him.

Now notice.. First he said “in that day” (29) and next in 34 he says “in that night”… at once it is a time of ‘seeing’ (daylight) and at the same time it is a time of night (darkness and blindness when one can not see). So this event (his crucifixion and resurrection) will be there for all to see - but those disinterested will be in darkness and blind.

Now - back up - and get the whole context of the discussion from 17:20 where it begins with the Pharisees (who expected a physical king and the restoration of Israel to the geo-political days of Solomon’s glory) asked him when and where the kingdom would be. Jesus answers “you will not observe it” and the Hebrew meaning (carried in the Greek translation) is that it is not a thing you see with the physical eye.

Now - skip to the end of the conversation … 36 .. And the Pharisees still don’t get it because they again ask for a physical location and time .. “Where?” - and Jesus answers - wherever the carcass is - you will see the vultures gathering above it. The natural image is one of seeing a gathering of vultures in the sky and knowing that beneath them is a dead body. This line is pregnant with meaning (as many of the Lords words are) but the main meaning is sufficient.

It means - all men die - the body will die. The kingdom of heaven is a ‘place’ of no more death… so the Kingdom is not a physical thing of this sensate and physical world and will not be ‘here’ or ‘there’ as to location. I believe in another place his also reinterates this when he said about false messiahs “some will say he is over here.. Some will say he is over there” but don’t fall for it. Again, with this, Jesus does not even equate himself as the messiah until the moment he ‘comes’ which is the moment of his death and resurrection after which his resurrected body (a human form) ascends to heaven and never again steps into history.

To say that the ‘second coming’ is any thing other than a mystical union or a moment of personal experience after death - is to give it a “where and when”.. and an “over here” and “over there”. No man knows the ‘time’ of it because it does not take place in ‘time’. It is that simple.

Good luck with your Evangelical friends - many Catholics and Orthodox believe in some future historical date (even if currently unknown) also.

Let me edit one thing before someone takes me up on it… I should have said it better.

Jesus knew he was the messiah - but he received that office at the moment of his crucifixion and resurrection (think of it as an anointing) he received the full office from the Creating Father. This is the doctrine of predestination… something which happens in the future (according to human time) has its effects on all that came before it and all that comes after it. Science looks for the big bang - well here it is - where the eternal divine and the time bound corporal - meet (the crucifixion and resurrection). This is the defining moment of creation. Christ’s life and the history of the world did not build -up- to the crucifixion so much as it preceded -from- the crucifixion and resurrection. Hard to understand because it is so simple.

And finally (too late Ray you already yakked too much) it is a wonder glimpse into His human nature - human in all ways - that when the Pharisees asked “when, where?” again!! regarding the physical location of the Kingdom of God - after Jesus so patiently explained that there is no physical location to it - the physical eye can not see it - and then they nodded as if they understood (so as not to look foolish to others standing there) and proceeded to ask again “Where?” - Jesus is frustrated turns the tables on them and gives the vulture line as if to say “Well.. If you have not understood then the sign you seek for a physical location and a date and time - will be like - the sign you latch onto will be as if you have spotted vultures in the sky and said “it is over there!” but once you get there you will find nothing but a dead body and you shall be just as dead (in spirit) as it!

OK. This is my opinion.

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: -ray ]