I have no idea why the Administrator closed this topic but I will approach it from another perspective and see if it will survive.

Abdur,

You mentioned that both the Sunis and the Shias have declared war on the Sufis. I've recently become aware of this. I consider the Sufis to be something of brothers/sisters in a common venture to serve God.

He also mentioned a hope that we would be able to rid the world of the radical groups in Islam before they destroy us all.

Could you elaborate on this? Where might we turn for solid information on this topic?

Dan Lauffer

That anyone would harm the Sufi is very disturbing. The ones that I have counted as friends are good souls and wonderful people. I see them as among the best in mankind. And they are good Moslems. May the Lord bless us all.


The blood of Christ changes the world

Angelus,

That has been my experience as well. In fact, when I teach comparative religions I emphasise the Sufi contributions. However, when Saudi Arabia foments revolution against what we call moderate Muslims that often includes oppression of the Sufis.

It would seem that there are two kinds of Muslims these days. One is the bloodthirsty people we so often see on TV. The other is the Godly Sufi type person with whom we might all find some commonality.

I do so appreciate John 1:9.

Dan Lauffer

Isn't it true, though, that the Sufis have, for a long time, been considered somewhat, um, "suspect" by 'orthodox' Muslim authorities? The Sufis have much to admire as Muslims from a Christian perspective -- including a much more tolerant, inclusive view of Christianity than is the case among more 'orthodox' Muslims. But I wonder whether we are seeing something positive in them precisely because they reject, to a certain degree, the more rigid, 'orthodox' Islam.

Historically, the Sufis were extremely succesful in countries which converted to Islam, or which had numerous converts to Islam -- much, much moreseo than in the Arab world itself. Iran, Afghanistan, and later Turkey and the Balkans were all places where sufism flourished for a time -- perhaps precisely because it offered a system of Islam that did not reject other faith systems entirely. Surely, there are parts of the Qur'an that support that POV, but there are numerous parts of the Qur'an that the Sufis insist, much to the consternation of the more 'orthodox' authorities, must be read in a mystical sense -- and that's where the roads diverge.

Brendan

Dear Dan and Angelus,

Let there be light.

Persecution of the Sufis by the "orthodox" is certainly a very ancient practice.

On the other hand, I do not want to paint ( I would not prefer to "paint" at all, but see the orthodox only through the eyes of nothingness. But how can nothingness have eyes? Sorry, a Sufi joke. I am making fun of myself) all Sunni and Shi'a Muslims as "fanatics and suicidal maniacs." When Ajami characterized these lost souls he was engaged in a heated debate (on PBS) with an Egyptian-American college professor and he used this strong condemnation to clarify a few facts. Ajami grew up in a Shi'a family in west Beirut and he certainly is a personal victim of religious fanaticism, so one can sympathize with his strong emotions.

Actually, one can be a Sufi and a Sunni or even Shi'a. So the antagonisms are not clearly defined as "party" or "sectarian" conflicts but really conflicts based on attitudes, as in "tolerant or intolerant."

The cure for these sometimes lethal antagonisms must be found within Islam. Contrary to public opinion, the Prophet (PBUH) actually encouraged diversity within the Islamic Ummah, since he considered such diversity healthy and a guarantee against hegemony of one group over all other groups within the Islamic nation. Unfortunately, his unworthy successors did not live up to or practice his high standards.

The cure for Islam in general is a return to basics, which calls for a clear break with those self-destructive practices that are accretions from ethnic cultures that cling to pre-Islamic barbaric ideas and practices that are actually foreign to Islam. Unfortunately, many Muslims are completely ignorant of that fact. They haven't a clue.

We (Muslims) have a steep mountain to climb before we can even catch a glimpse of the Promised Land. But we must climb that mountain.

In the interim, what else can all of us do----Jews, Christians, Muslims---but protect ourselves by pursuing these bandits who mock the name of Allah and deface the image of Islam by their nefarious deeds.

And all of us can pray, for prayer blesses us with a sense of direction and...."we can gladden the heart of a human being...we can feed the hungry...help the afflicted...lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful...and remove the wrongs done to the injured."

Salam

Abdur

Abdur,

I'm glad you are posting here. You bring light.

Dan Lauffer

Here in the US some Sufi were responsible for establishing Islamic Centers and promoting Islam. My one friend has the mark on his forehead that denotes his adherence to daily prayer and he is Sunni Sufi. Being a 110%'er and a kind, decent man that is honest and hard working he is an admirable man that benifits the US. That he sought freedom here was the loss of his nativeland. Any society can benifit from the Sufi's love of freedom and knowledge.

It is my theory that the only difference between the rich and poor nations of the world is the honesty of our governments. This is not to say that our system is not corrupt but it is less corrupt than Third World Nations. When leaders steal all the money from a nation they condem thier people to poverty. in our system our leaders steal some of the money and allow the rest to benifit our people. I see simple freedom as the lever that moves nations into the First World. Freedom would destroy poverty and I trust the common man more than any elite class.

Dear Friends,

Just a quick note to congratulate our brothers Abdur, Angelus and Dan for their wonderful contributions to this thread on Sufism and how people of different faiths can share their love of God and for various traditions in peace and joy.

Merry Christmas!

Alex

I realize that Islam is very amenable to different cultural settings. In many, perhaps most cases, this is not a bad thing. Yet, it would seem to have the flaw of allowing some of the abuses that have been mentioned.

Do you think that a lack of a respected and authentic heirarchy allows for problems that have been mentioned? Do you think that Sufis are at a disadvantage without some strong voice to keep the radical elements in line?

Dan Lauffer

In the past, Islam had Caliphs and Sultans who were considered universal masters of the Ummah, at least by the Suni. Shi'as had (have) their own conception of leadership.

I believe Islam has progressed beyond the hierarchical models of the past and there is no turning back. To do so would be disasterous.

Sufis are free spirits, for the most part. ( There are some Sufi Orders that insist on adhering to the Sharia and Sunnah.) Sufi leadership is charismatic and moral, not canonical.

A cursory reading of Church history teaches us that even popes and patriarchs have not been able to exert moral leadership over the more radical and deadly members of their respective flocks. Those who are intent on blaspheming and desecrating the Name of God by acts of violence and terrorism will do so, even if those actions are denounced by their hierarchs.

The healing of hate and violence is a spiritual and psychological process. No matter how respected, powerful, or charismatic the leader, people must want to be healed of their nafs---evil passions. Mere mortals can't force people to forgive and love others since that healing is a renovation of the mind and soul that must come from within. "The Kingdom of God is within you." Jesus (Peace and blessings be upon Him.)


I believe most other Sufis and many Muslims would agree with my perspective.

Salam and Christmas Mubarakh (joy) !

Abdur

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

I believe most other Sufis and many Muslims would agree with my perspective.

I should be able to discern from the beauty of your posts but I must ask, Are you considered to be a Sufi?

Dan Lauffer

This is why I LIKE the Muslims:

1. They Keep Their Traditions!
If you go to a mall chances are you will see a Muslim woman with a head covering - May God Bless Them For This! If you meet a Saudia chances are he will be dressed in his traditional wear. If you go to Japan everyone has a 3 piece suit on. Whats with that? Isn't the suit a European thing???

2. Muslims pray 5 times a day! I am lucky if I pray 2 times a day. I need a lot of work!

3. Muslims are generally (ones I have met) strong in their faith. Chances are that a JW or Moromon will not convert them.


God Bless!

aRomanCatholicGuy,

И хор поëт "Аминь!' Ay-men, brother!

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear RC Guy,

You're my kind of guy, too!!

The Knights Templar fought with Muslims, as we know.

Over time, they actually came to respect their enemy in the field, trade with him and adopt certain aspects of his religious and cultural traditions.

The later Templar Rule, for example, also prescribes daily prayer for the warrior-monks five times daily.

Some Templar Promontories also allowed Muslims to not only stay with them, but they also had special places reserved where Muslims could pray and perform their spiritual exercises.

A Benedictine monk visiting a Templar castle was horrified to see a Muslim performing the Salat there.

He shouted for help to eject the fellow when the Templars came running and told him to leave their friend alone . . .

There are shrines to Sufi saints which are visited and prayed at by Christians. A recent documentary on the Sufis showed Christians even participating in the celebrations with Muslims at the shrines.

Salaam Alekum!

Alex

This thread is a light in the virtual darkness that is present when most discussions about Islam take place.

Thank you all for reminding us that God can come to men and women of Good Will as He wishes and not as we wish Him to. It is His story that is being written, we are characters in it. In this season that celebrates light and revelation, surely the Spirit of God moves among us here in the Forum through threads like this.

Let there be Light; and the Light came among us! As we Christians celebrate the birth of the One Who is our Light, let us celebrate Light and Life. That could be the focus when we talk with each other in other threads.

As the Christopher motto says, It is better to light one little candle than to curse the dark!"

Again, thank you all.

Steve

JOY!

Merry Christmas, my friends as we celebrate together in December and January!

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Inawe ]

Dear Steve,

Have yourself a Merry little Christmas . . .

You are truly a wonderful spiritual balsam on the soul, Servant of Christ!

Alex

Alex,

Thank you for being an icon of the One Who is the Light unto our feet as we walk together on this pilgrimage!

You hold a special place in my heart, my friend.
Pray for this poor needy sinner.

Your personal desire is in my prayer especially at this time when God came among us as a Child to teach us that He has chosen to put His work into our hands. A blessed Preparation and Incarnation celebration be yours.

Steve
JOY!

Dan,

I don't know if one can ever say "I am a Sufi." Maybe, "I am trying to be a Sufi," is more accurate.

But I am a "listener" within Rumi's Order, which means I am at the bottom of the ladder, where I belong.

But I would prefer to believe that I am just a simple Muslim who just happens to be a Sufi. Sufi will always be, for me, just an adjective.

Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones.

Abdur