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EC's thoughts on RC... #119507
07/24/05 04:07 PM
07/24/05 04:07 PM
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RobJamesFrancis3 Offline OP
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This is probably a ridiculous question, and for that I apologise. But I was wondering what the general attitude of my Eastern/Oriental Catholic brethren is towards Latin Catholicism?

With both EOs and ECs talking of "Orthodoxy" (capital "O") I was wondering if the Eastern Catholics think that the Latin Catholic understandings of certain matters are acceptably orthodox...?

Despite my better judgement about bringing this up, I was wondering specifically about the Filioque...is it the case that, though it is not professed in the Creed (but rather the original Creed is said), do Eastern Catholics ultimately accept the Filioque?

Basically, the Latins seem to accept and celebrate the diversity of understanding that exists among the Rites. Is this the case for Catholics in the Eastern Rites too?

confused

Thanks! smile smile smile

Peace,
Rob cool

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119508
07/24/05 05:07 PM
07/24/05 05:07 PM
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Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Dear Rob,

You'll find all manner of views on this - from EC's who would put Latin Traditionalists to shame (we had one on the board here just recently!) and others who would put some Orthodox to shame . . .

Judging from the attitudes of most of the parishes I am familiar with (of the "Eastern" orientation), this has more to do with a "religious cultural" difference.

In other words, what the "Latins do" is "their way" and we "do it" another way.

After that, the strong suggestion is made that "we do it better" than the Latins . . . wink

And this is because of a number of reasons.

There is the EC who sees his or her Church as "superior" to the Latin Church - and especially nowadays with the Latin Novus Ordo liturgy. When Latin Traditionalists complain to us about the "Protestantization" of the Latin traditions, we sympathize and mutter under our breaths "there but for the Grace of God . . ."

Another "type" of EC would see the Latin traditions as "all right for the Latins" but "we do it better" because we have a stronger link to the Fathers and the ancient Church traditions prior to the split of 1054 AD.

So, given our ancient, unchanging ways, this is, in and of itself, the source of self-assured pride in a number of EC's. Whenever a very Eastern priest wants to bring in an Orthodox tradition that we've not seen before, he will say, "Well, EVEN the Latins used to . . ." And that means that if EVEN they used to do this (before they went all over the place liturgically), then this is something we should look into adopting ourselves . . .

There are those who define their ECism in a negative way, in terms of a general critique of everything the Latin Church does - this stops short of calling it "heretical" but everything else that is negative.

So Latin kneeling is either a recent Latin or Basilian new (and therefore "wrong") initiative that we shouldn't be aping for that reason.

So who we are and what we do is the opposite of who the Latins are and what they do.

When we use the Filioque, those parishes that do, (and their name is legion), this is defended not as a Latinization, but as something that our own church brought in by itself (which is true).

And that makes it "ours" without reference to what the Latins do ("The Latins only use the real Creed on Sundays - they hardly know the significance of the Nicene Creed anyway").

The same is true about a number of Western devotions that have a "paraliturgical" status in our UGCC.

In the Ukrainian Catholic Church, special care is taken to interpret various traditions against the backdrop of her two historic enemies - the Russian Orthodox Church and the Polish Catholic Church.

As has been shown, our peculiar way of commemorating the Pope in our liturgy is a direct imitation of the way the Patriarchs of Constantinople and of Moscow are commemorated. But, no matter, try to even raise the issue of returning to a more ancient (and more reasonable) way of commemorating him, then so many get their noses out of joint.

The Filioque itself was forced on the Ruthenian Greek-Catholics after the Union of Brest - with RC soldiers sent to churches to listen to the singing of the Creed to ensure compliance.

Our early fathers of that Union, refusing to change the ancient tradition pertaining to the Nicene Creed, added a word that resembled the word for "Filioque" in Slavonic.

The words for Filioque would be "I Syna" (and the Son), but they said, "Istynno" (or "truly") i.e. "Who proceeds from the Father truly . . ."

Over time, the Filioque became mandatory under the Ruthenian Catholic bishops (i.e. Ukrainian and Belarusyan).

Since the EC Churches of Eastern Europe had such a close connection (as with all EC churches) to the national culture of the people, all of their traditions developed an unchanging aura.

Thus, to want to remove the Filioque is something that could be seen, especially in E. Europe, as a kind of "Orthodoxization" (and therefore, Russification) by the back door.

There were times when the ROC, with the help of the Tsarist army, would unite EC areas with itself.

The first thing it did as part of a slow process of achieving this was to announced a "program of Easternization and de-Latinization" of the EC churches.

When this occurred and various Latin traditions were stripped away (including the Filioque), then the next step was inevitable - formal unity with the ROC and the severing of ties with Rome.

However, in 1946, the reverse was true - when the UGCC in Ukraine was obliged to sever its ties with Rome (many tanks to the Russian army), the Orthodox Church didn't really care about the Latin devotions the area hung on to.

To this day, such devotions as the Stations of the Cross, the Sacred Heart, the Monstrance, and the Rosary, are popular not only in the newly-resurrected UGCC there, but also in the Orthodox churches of western Ukraine and elsewhere.


Alex

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119509
07/24/05 07:45 PM
07/24/05 07:45 PM
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RobJamesFrancis3 Offline OP
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Thanks!...Are there some ECs who would say that the Latin Rite is perfectly Orthodox and that no Rite is "better" in a definite sense, only different?

Thanks! smile

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119510
07/24/05 09:48 PM
07/24/05 09:48 PM
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Arystarcus Offline
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Quote
To this day, such devotions as the Stations of the Cross, the Sacred Heart, the Monstrance, and the Rosary, are popular not only in the newly-resurrected UGCC there, but also in the Orthodox churches of western Ukraine and elsewhere.
In regards to having a monstrance, how would this be used as the Ukrainian Orthodox and Catholic Churches do not use unleavened bread?

Thanks,
Aaron

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119511
07/24/05 10:31 PM
07/24/05 10:31 PM
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Chtec Offline
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Jesus just has a really tight fit. wink

Actually, I think that some would make a very thin Lamb, possibly just taking the top layer of prosphora crust which could easily fit into a pyx and lunette/"Melchizedek."

Dave

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119512
07/24/05 11:36 PM
07/24/05 11:36 PM
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Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Dear Aaron,

Chtec is correct - I've never been to a "Supplicatsia" service where the monstrance would be used, however . . .

I'm now thinking about whether that is a good or a bad thing . . . smile

Alex

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119513
07/24/05 11:44 PM
07/24/05 11:44 PM
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Arystarcus Offline
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Jesus just has a really tight fit. wink
Haha! biggrin

Quote
Actually, I think that some would make a very thin Lamb, possibly just taking the top layer of prosphora crust which could easily fit into a pyx and lunette/"Melchizedek."
Thanks for the info - makes sense now! smile

In Christ,
Aaron

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119514
07/24/05 11:57 PM
07/24/05 11:57 PM
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Chtec Offline
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

Chtec is correct - I've never been to a "Supplicatsia" service where the monstrance would be used, however . . .
Yeah, most Greek Catholics would simply take the container of the Reserved Sacrament (usually a covered ciborium) out of the tabernacle and perform the Suplikacija and Benediction with that. Ukrainian GCs seemed to like the monstrance more than others among their brethren, but it wasn't universal.

I know that the Melkites had some form of Benediction in the past; I wonder if they used a monstrance? Considering the way most Arabs bake prosphora, it would be easy to fit one of their Lambs in a monstrance. wink

Sometimes I wonder how I know so much stuff about these devotions... biggrin

Dave

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119515
07/25/05 04:39 PM
07/25/05 04:39 PM
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RobJamesFrancis3 Offline OP
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I was just thinking...if ECs are 'Orthodox in Communion with Rome' do they believe that Latin Catholics too are Orthodox?

smile Rob

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119516
07/25/05 05:25 PM
07/25/05 05:25 PM
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Dmitri Rostovski Offline
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I think it depends on who you ask. As someone who has many family memebers who are Roman, it really doesn't help to banter versions of the same Truth per se. I think in my situation we have a cordial "understanding" of each others' position.

A much more fun debate is which blessing to use at Thanksgiving...

Dmitri

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119517
07/28/05 10:40 PM
07/28/05 10:40 PM
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RobJamesFrancis3 Offline OP
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No, I agree that debate isn't particularly helpful. And I don't want debate because I don't think that either understanding is necessarily better then the other...both are within the acceptable boundaries of Truth. Do any other Catholics share this view, or am I the only one?

Thanks! smile

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119518
07/29/05 03:05 AM
07/29/05 03:05 AM
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rcguest Offline
Bill from Pgh
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Quote
Originally posted by RobJamesFrancis3:
No, I agree that debate isn't particularly helpful. And I don't want debate because I don't think that either understanding is necessarily better then the other...both are within the acceptable boundaries of Truth. Do any other Catholics share this view, or am I the only one?

Thanks! smile
Dear RobJF3,

I share this view....but I'm a Latin Catholic, too. wink

By your questions you seem to be asking our eastern brothers and sisters to legitimize your Latin Church. Though you don't care to debate, these very questions will draw a number of differing opinions.

Let me tell you there are those on this forum both east and west who will infer and or come right out and tell you the Roman Church's current praxis and the Pauline Mass are inferior to the Byzantine Liturgy and praxis and the Tridentine Mass and the praxis of the Roman Church before Vatican II.

After reading so much of this type of debate on this forum I have come up with this simple analogy for those who feel their church's praxis is superior. One may drive a Mercedes, or one may drive a Chevrolet. Both vehicles will get you to your final destination.

Neither Church is better than or inferior to the other. They are just different. Things aren't perfect on either side of the fence. Try to live your life in Christ.

So, stick around and learn about, and if possible experience the Eastern Churches first hand, but don't let opinions make you feel inferior.

Bill

Re: EC's thoughts on RC... #119519
07/29/05 02:28 PM
07/29/05 02:28 PM
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RobJamesFrancis3 Offline OP
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Thank you Bill! I completely agree with you there. biggrin

My main concern was that it seemed to me that some ECs actually considered the Latins to be heterodox...and since we are One Church then I couldn't see how that made sense. I guess (and hope) that this is not the case, since I have a lot of respect for the different theological and liturgical traditions in the Church and I hope all my brothers and sisters feel the same.

Peace to you in Christ Jesus,
Rob smile


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