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Plus catholique que le papa? #119894
07/03/05 11:33 PM
07/03/05 11:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,180
California
Elizabeth Maria Offline OP
Orthodox Christian
Elizabeth Maria  Offline OP
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Why are people using the expression "plus catholique que le papa"? And where and when did this expression "holier than the Pope" originate?

It seems to be anti-theosis.

I thought that we were supposed to be "perfect as the Heaveny Father is perfect."

Re: Plus catholique que le papa? #119895
07/03/05 11:36 PM
07/03/05 11:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 218
N. America
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Marc Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Elizabeth Maria:
Why are people using the expression "plus catholique que le papa"? And where and when did this expression "holier than the Pope" originate?

It seems to be anti-theosis.

I thought that we were supposed to be "perfect as the Heaveny Father is perfect."
As far as I've heard, the phrase refers to people who think they know and keep the "Catholic" position on any given subject better than the Pope, and feel that the Pope isn't hard enough or he's a modernist or something like that.

Re: Plus catholique que le papa? #119896
07/03/05 11:43 PM
07/03/05 11:43 PM
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Posts: 5,685
Knoxville, TN
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byzanTN Offline
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The interesting thing is that the statement has at times been true. Yes, there have been saintly popes. But there have been plenty of them who were not worthy of the office. In those times, there probably were plenty of people who were holier than the pope. It seems in modern times we have a tendency to almost deify the person who holds the office.

Re: Plus catholique que le papa? #119897
07/04/05 09:28 AM
07/04/05 09:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 217
Britain
wild goose Offline
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wild goose  Offline
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The Holy Gospel of Matthew (chapter 5, verses 43-48):

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

The perfection God in Christ requires of His followers is that which loves as does God Almighty.

When faced with this requirement, no human outranks another, nor falls below another. grace and peace, wg


a fool for Christ, like St Xenia
Re: Plus catholique que le papa? #119898
07/04/05 10:51 AM
07/04/05 10:51 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 473
Manhattan, NYC
Jean Francois Offline
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Of course the proper spelling is 'Pape' and not 'papa'. The French 'Papa' means father in English, whereas 'Pape' means 'Pope'.

I think that Mark the Lurker hit the proverbial nail on the head with his definition above. When someone uses this expression it means that they are more orthodox than than the pope when it comes to a particular point of view, tradition, etc...

I.F.

Re: Plus catholique que le papa? #119899
07/04/05 02:44 PM
07/04/05 02:44 PM
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Posts: 6,561
Glasgow, Scotland
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Our Lady's slave Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Jean Francois:
Of course the proper spelling is 'Pape' and not 'papa'. The French 'Papa' means father in English, whereas 'Pape' means 'Pope'.

I think that Mark the Lurker hit the proverbial nail on the head with his definition above. When someone uses this expression it means that they are more orthodox than than the pope when it comes to a particular point of view, tradition, etc...

I.F.
Sadly this often applies to converts who seem to go overboard to show that they are now full members of the Church and wish to obey every little precept - no matter how insignificant it appears to be.

Another word for that is - and I think it's been used here before smile is
Convertitis

Anhelyna

Re: Plus catholique que le papa? #119900
07/04/05 05:23 PM
07/04/05 05:23 PM
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incognitus Offline
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Oddly enough, the same expression - "plus catholique que le pape" is fairly often used in purely secular contexts, with no religious significance.

Incognitus

Re: Plus catholique que le papa? #119901
07/05/05 04:36 PM
07/05/05 04:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Georgia
Logos - Alexis Offline
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Personally, I don't really see the sense in pegging someone with this cliche.

More Catholic than the Pope? So what? More Catholic than Alexander Borgia; that's a compliment, and almost everyone acknowledges this.

Most of the members here would probably balk at someone who considers himself "more Catholic" than John Paul II. But, to be fair, he is heterodox to some. That is their opinion and they are allowed to believe it.

Popes aren't always very Catholic. I think it's an insult to one's humility for others to use this cliche to describe him.

Logos Teen

Re: Plus catholique que le papa? #119902
07/05/05 05:03 PM
07/05/05 05:03 PM
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Posts: 5,685
Knoxville, TN
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byzanTN Offline
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Quote
Popes aren't always very Catholic. I think it's an insult to one's humility for others to use this cliche to describe him.

Logos Teen
I tend to agree. Nearly every time I have heard someone accused of being more Catholic than the Pope, the accusation was hurled by someone who wanted to change some aspect of Church teaching to suit their own preferences - or bad habits. And Popes are not always very Catholic. Some have individual agendas that have little to do with the Church. Some of the popes have been such an embarrassment, it would have been better for us if they had not been Catholic.

Re: Plus catholique que le papa? #119903
07/06/05 03:29 PM
07/06/05 03:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 58
Knoxville, TN
Dave Wells Offline
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A friend of mine who converted to the OCA told me about some fellow Orthodox who tend to be more traditional (and more Russian) than the rest. He calls them "Morthodox" (as in "more Orthodox").

The attitude is not just found among those who are "more Catholic than the Pope."

Re: Plus catholique que le papa? #119904
07/06/05 03:44 PM
07/06/05 03:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,108
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Dear Friends (and those who have something against Pope John Paul II), wink

I grew up with "more papal than the Pope" as a saying that members of the Ukrainian patriarchalist movement liked to apply to our own bishops who seemed more concerned that we NOT use that title for Pat. Josef Slipyj (ie. bilshe papshkay nizh sam Papa).

Ultimately, the expression discussed here, I would venture to say, is a way to upbraid someone for being more "moralistic" and more strict than the traditional paragon of strictness, the Pope of Rome.

As for which Popes were really Catholic, I think that is for the Church herself to say.

And the Church has often been divided on this matter.

For example, Pope St Liberius is a full saint in the Eastern Catholic Byzantine Churches.

He has NO cult in the Roman West and was the first Pope not to have been canonized since the time of Sts Peter and Paul.

And Pope John XXIII was hated by a number of high-ranking Curialists, even though more than 300 miracles through his intercession were cleared by the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints!

There is no satisfying some . . .

Alex

Re: Plus catholique que le papa? #119905
07/06/05 08:23 PM
07/06/05 08:23 PM
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Posts: 1,963
Takoma Park, MD
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Two Lungs Offline
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Blessed John XXIII was once asked how many people worked for him at the Vatican.

His reply? --- "About half." smile

I guess Alex writes about the other half? frown

Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
And Pope John XXIII was hated by a number of high-ranking Curialists, even though more than 300 miracles through his intercession were cleared by the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints!

There is no satisfying some . . .

Alex


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