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Dormition/Assumption #120423
08/10/03 12:34 PM
08/10/03 12:34 PM
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Mateusz Offline OP
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Mateusz  Offline OP
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can anyone please tell me if there is an actual difference between these two meanings and if so...what they are exactly, or are they simply just two different words ? thank you

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120424
08/10/03 12:43 PM
08/10/03 12:43 PM
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Glasgow, Scotland
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Our Lady's slave Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Mateusz:
can anyone please tell me if there is an actual difference between these two meanings and if so...what they are exactly, or are they simply just two different words ? thank you
Hmm I may very probably be wrong here - but this is how I see it [ and I know I'll be corrected swiftly if as I suspect I am]

Dormition of the Mother of God - Our Blessed Lady did not actually die as we understand it in physical terms, but as her earthly life was over , She fell asleep and was then taken directly to heaven.

Assumption of Our Lady - as She was human, She did in fact die , in physical terms, but was taken up into heaven directly [ which we are not] because she was free from sin.

And I've probably made things worse now - so I'll vanish frown

Anhelyna

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120425
08/10/03 01:11 PM
08/10/03 01:11 PM
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Alice Offline
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Dear Mateusz,

The Dormition (in Greek: Koimisis) means 'the falling asleep'.

The Assumption means 'having been assumed (taken up) into heaven..

According to Eastern Holy Tradition, the blessed Virgin Mary both fell asleep in the Lord, and was bodily assumed into Heaven.

In Christ,
Alice

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120426
08/10/03 01:29 PM
08/10/03 01:29 PM
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Lawrence Offline
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In the East, at least since the 6th century, and at Rome, at any rate, since the end of the 7th century (Sergius I 687-701) the church celebrated the Feast of the Sleeping of Mary (Dormitio). The object of the Feast was originally the death of Mary, but very soon the thought appeared of the incorruptibility of her body and of its assumption into Heaven. The original title Dormitio (Sleeping) was changed into assumptio (Sacramentarium Gregorianum). In the Liturgical and Patristic texts of the 8th and 9th centuries, the idea of the bodily assumption is clearly attested. Under the influence of Ps.-Hieronymus, there was uncertainty for a long time as to whether or not the asumption of the body was signified by the Feast. Since the peak period of the Middle Ages, the affirmative view has gained precedence, and has now been dominant for a long time. From the Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott.

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120427
08/10/03 01:37 PM
08/10/03 01:37 PM
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Mateusz Offline OP
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thank you very much for your answers, if i am not mistaken ive heard that many hold it in tradition that this event occured in the city of Ephesus, has the catholic church confirmed this or is it not sure ?

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120428
08/10/03 03:32 PM
08/10/03 03:32 PM
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Lawrence Offline
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The Roman Catholic Church has never made an official ruling on where the Assumption occured, although both Ephesus and Jerusalem are cited in tradition.

The Life of St Theodosius mentions the Feast being celebrated in Palestine prior to 500 AD.

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120429
08/13/03 11:33 AM
08/13/03 11:33 AM
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Philadelphia
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Andrew J. Rubis Offline
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Please see "On the Dormition of Mary" by Fr. Daley, SJ published by SVS Press (www.svots.org).

He clearly shows how the patristic tradition sometimes, but not always, stressed "translated to life" but rarely a "bodily assumption" and never a "resurrection."

In the Orthodox Churches, belief in the bodily assumption of our Most Pure, All-Holy Lady the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary is not "required," but certainly respected and widespread.

In Christ,
Andrew

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120430
08/13/03 12:23 PM
08/13/03 12:23 PM
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Carpatho-Rus'
Lemko Rusyn Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Andrew J. Rubis:
In the Orthodox Churches, belief in the bodily assumption of our Most Pure, All-Holy Lady the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary is not "required," but certainly respected and widespread.
Hmmm. For those Orthodox who don't hold this belief, where do they say her tomb is? Where is her body, and what happened to it?

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120431
08/13/03 02:21 PM
08/13/03 02:21 PM
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incognitus Offline
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No one has ever claimed to produce any first-class relics of the Holy Theotokos (there are, of course, second-class relics, such as Her Zone, which is normally kept at Mount Athos). As to Her tomb, tradition holds that she was buried in Gethsemane. Incognitus

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120432
08/13/03 04:06 PM
08/13/03 04:06 PM
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Carpatho-Rus'
Lemko Rusyn Offline
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Originally posted by incognitus:
As to Her tomb, tradition holds that she was buried in Gethsemane. Incognitus
So those Orthodox who believe the Assumption didn't happen have some evidence in this modern day that her body still lies in the ground at Gethsemane?

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120433
08/13/03 04:15 PM
08/13/03 04:15 PM
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DTBrown Offline
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My understanding of Fr Daley's book is that it supports the traditional belief in the Dormition/Assumption.

The liturgical texts are quite clear, I believe, that the body of the Theotokos was translated to Heaven. From Matins for the Dormition:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/15aug.htm

Quote
When the Translation of your immaculate Body was being prepared, the Apostles surrounded your deathbed and looked on you with dread. And as they gazed at your body they were seized with awe, while Peter cried out to you with tears: ‘Immaculate Virgin, I see you, who are the life of all, lying here outstretched, and I am struck with wonder; for in you the Delight of the life to come made his dwelling. But fervently implore your Son and God that your City may be kept safe from harm’...

The Suzerain and God of all apportions to you the things above nature; for just as he kept you a Virgin in your giving birth, so he preserved your body incorrupt in the tomb, and he glorified you with him by a divine Translation, gracing you with honours, as a Son his Mother....

But when, by divine dispensation, one of the Apostles, who had been absent from the burial of the life-giving body, arrived on the third day, he was greatly grieved and distressed that he had not been found worthy of what they had. All his fellow Apostles, who had been found worthy, by a common vote opened the tomb for the sake of the Apostle who had been absent, so it seemed good to all, for him also to venerate that all-blameless body. When they looked they were amazed. For they found it empty of the holy body, and containing only the winding sheet, which remained as a consolation for those who were about to grieve and for all the faithful, and as a sure witness of the Translation. For even until today the tomb hewn from the rock is visible and venerated, and remains empty of a body, to the glory and honour of our most blessed Lady, Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary.
David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120434
08/13/03 10:03 PM
08/13/03 10:03 PM
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Alice Offline
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Dear Andrew,

Actually, the West followed the East on the long standing tradition with a capital 'T' of the Bodily Assumption of our Blessed Lady Theotokos.

It is actually more of an anti-Catholic polemic against the Latin DOGMATIZING of the Assumption in some Orthodox circles, (even acknowledged by Bishop Kallistos Ware in his book 'The Orthodox Church'--), as well as a Protestant affected approach, to say that belief in Mary's bodily assumption is 'not required'.

As I have said before on this forum, I have spoken to religious, hierarchs and clerics of great intellect and purity of faith in Greece, (where the faith is still undiluted by Protestanism), and they have categorically stated that NOT believing in Mary's bodily assumption is HERESY for an Orthodox. So, I would say that it is very much required if one is to truly call himself Orthodox.

It has been said that this newly embraced wishy washiness in the American Orthodox churches (besides the anti-Catholic polemics and American Protestant influence) may be also due to satisfying the recent influx of Protestant converts (no offense to my beloved brethren smile ) who have a very difficult time with Mariology, and its part in the Roman Catholic Church. So, what better way to get them in the Orthodox ranks than to say, 'no, no, no, we don't believe all the same things exactly as 'they' do about the Virgin Mary'. mad

Shame!!

May our Blessed Theotokos intercede for us all!
Most Holy Mother of God, save us!

Alice

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120435
08/13/03 11:11 PM
08/13/03 11:11 PM
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Dr John Offline
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I know that there is a lot of theological back-and-forth on this question.

My own suspicion is, like a lot of other 'tradition' oriented folks: the Mother of God, being sinless, is subject to a different set of realities than the rest of us sinful folks.

Is is not surprising to see that the 'faithful' are not suggesting anything that is "miraculous" but rather are affirming that the Mother of God, as sinless, experienced her bodily death at which time she was 'translated' (dumb word) from earthly life, body and soul, to an existence in the Kingdom. What's the problem? She's the Mother of God, for heaven's sakes!!!! Special treatment? You bet.

Blessings!

Re: Dormition/Assumption #120436
08/14/03 11:00 AM
08/14/03 11:00 AM
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Canada
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Re: Dormition/Assumption #120437
08/14/03 11:17 AM
08/14/03 11:17 AM
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I'm still trying to figure out how the Apostles came from all over the earth to her burial on clouds.

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