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Reunion: impossible? #122615 09/04/02 03:36 PM
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Columcille Offline OP
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Friends,

I was considering some things that I would like to get some opinions on. I am thinking about the possible reunion of East and West, but am unsure if it could happen.

The Orthodox will never accept the dogma of Papal Infallibility. Can anybody see the Latin Church ever renouncing the claim? I doubt it. What about the infallible statements that the pope has issued? Surely Rome can't go back and say they made a mistake and the pope really isn't infallible after all. Even if this were to happen, it would have devastating effects on the laity. What about the traditional Catholics who will defend Papal Infallibility to the death? Surely they would not want any part of a reunited Church without this dogma.

Perhaps I'm just a pessimist. Can anybody shed some light of hope on the situation?

Columcille

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122616 09/04/02 03:42 PM
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Dragani Offline
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Columcile,

Reunion is not as impossible as it seems. Remember, when Jesus died on the cross the new Christian movement appeared dead in its tracks. But then the impossible happened, and Jesus was raised from the tomb.

Unity will occur, but perhaps not in the midst of comfort and wealth. It may only occur in the face of a deadly threat to all of Christianity.

Anthony

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122617 09/04/02 04:02 PM
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Columcille Offline OP
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>>>Unity will occur, but perhaps not in the midst of comfort and wealth. It may only occur in the face of a deadly threat to all of Christianity.<<<

With the rapid advance of Muhammedism into the Western World, that day may not be too far off.

Columcille

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122618 09/04/02 04:23 PM
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Dear Columcille,

Well, both East and West believe that the Church as the Body of Christ will be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit.

Both Churches affirm this, it is just a question of how it is expressed.

Both Churches at one time saw their actual unity expressed through the Petrine Minister in the person of the Pope of Rome - and I'm only taking this from Meyendorff.

The Orthodox Church also holds that we are to obey not only the Ecumenical Councils, but our Patriarchs, Bishops and even parish priests - although the Patriarchs have generally a bit more weight to their authority wink .

Meyendorff and others have speculated on the possibilities here from an Orthodox viewpoint and frankly with good will on both sides the problems are not insurmountable.

There was a Russian holy man who once said the only real difference between Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics was the Russian spelling of the term "Catholic."

The Eastern Orthodox were "KaFoliky" and the RC's were "KaToliky."

But what did that Russian monk know? wink

Alex

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122619 09/04/02 05:02 PM
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Responding to:

>>>Unity will occur, but perhaps not in the midst of comfort and wealth. It may only occur in the face of a deadly threat to all of Christianity.<<<

Columcille writes:

>>With the rapid advance of Muhammedism into the Western World, that day may not be too far off.<<

The Orthodox have been living, suffering, enduring, being martyred and diminishing under Moslem rule for many, many centuries now. The laws of the Moslem rulers for the Dhimi [non-Moslems] make our treatment of black Americans in the south prior to Martin Luther King seem almost benign - Not quite. The treatment under Islamic law of non-Muslims in conquered territories is designed to "crush their snout into the dirt in humiliation"... So that hopefully they will submit to the Authority of Allah, and if not, will blessedly and mercifully die out...

This is an everyday reality of life for millions of Orthodox, and it is indeed expansionistic, as in Kosevo, where they first settled peacefully, and then, once established, use terrorist means to conquer the country, destroying Churches and massacering people - It has been going on for a long time...[many centuries - How do you think the Moslems acquired the territories they now rule?] In Turkey at the beginning of the 20th Century, and now again with 9/11 at the beginning of the 21st - Nobody cared about the millions of Christians slaughtered and routed out of Turkey... But you are right, a few thousand at the WTC suddenly brings home what has been going on for a thousand years elsewhere, as our eyes remained shut and our hearts hardened... Now, of course, they are steeled to war with terrorism, and the loss of resolve without another major incident is pretty certain...

You are right, C... The time is coming, and not too far off at all - We are going to get more than just a little WTC taste of terror - We have gone back to 'business as usual', but the war is not over just as long as there are individuals who are willing to become human bombs...

Lord have mercy!

geo


"Be not troubling of you the heart..."
Re: Reunion: impossible? #122620 09/04/02 05:27 PM
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Dear Friends,

Actually, I coudn't disagree more, at least on the basis of the historical record.

The West ignored the Orthodox East at the time of the Fall of Constantinople.

Christians tend not to come together in the face of external threats. If anything, they become more triumphalistic toward each other.

And the Orthodox, by and large, preferred to be under Islam than under the Catholic West.

It's a good thing you American Catholics and Orthodox have such strong secular patriotism to unite you!

Alex

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122621 09/04/02 06:17 PM
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Deleted by Abdur

[ 09-04-2002: Message edited by: traveler ]

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122622 09/04/02 06:21 PM
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traveler Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by traveler:
Actually, Kosovo was colonized by Gheg Albanian Catholics who were promised land in Kosovo if they converted to Islam.

The Turks--for the most part-- were a minority in Balkans though there were millions of Muslims of Christian descent who--contrary to public opinion--willingly apostatized to Islam and became the willing servants of sultans and, in the case of the Bosnians, became high officials within the Ottoman regime.

It is an historical fact that many of the Imperial regime's 'high achievers' were Christian apostates.


Abdur

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122623 09/04/02 06:24 PM
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Columcille Offline OP
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I apologize for my comment that sent this thread off into another direction. Perhaps we can get back to discussing the hurdles standing in the way of reunion?

There are really only two ways of looking at Papal infallibility, either he is or he isn't. This doesn't seem to be one of those topics where there is a complimenting East/West perspective. Either the pope is incapable of error when speaking on matters of faith and morals "ex cathedra", or he doesn't have that ability. Remember, this is a binding dogma on ALL Catholics.

Columcille

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122624 09/04/02 06:30 PM
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Dear Abdur,

You are absolutely correct and this is why the object of the Kozaks' hatred in their campaigns against the Turks and the Tatars were not them as such, but the Janissaries or "Yanichary" - the Christian Apostates.

Many of these were young people taken in captivity and converted to Islam as well. They became not only highly placed in the Turkish regime, but very fierce fighters against their own people.

As the old Kozak song went, "The Kozaks went a-sailing to . . . beat the Yanychars."

Something similar happened at one of the first battles between Hetman Bohdan Khmelnitsky and the Poles near Pochaiv. He lost that one and thousands of Kozaks were killed. The leader of the Polish troops was a Ukrainian Yanissary whose sword used in the battle to kill his own people is still in a museum in Cracow.

There is a shrine to the Kozaks who fell 8 versts from Pochaiv called the "Kozak Graves" in honour of St George and has boxes filled with the remains of the Kozak dead.

Alex

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122625 09/04/02 06:39 PM
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The problem with this Ecumenical dialogue is that the Church leaders discuss many things at the same time and we will never reach the unity in that way.

The Western Church insists in seeing Church Unity as a mere administrative unity (under the Pope). An administrative unity will not exist before a unity of faith is reestablished.

I think that the dialogues should be focused in certain points: original sin, immaculate conception, purgatory, filioque... one by one.

I'm sure that many things would change if Rome shows that they have the will to continue the dialogue with actions and not with speeches. The removal of the filioque of the Latin Creed would be a good way to start.

And the Sacraments: things should be modified in order to make the sacraments acceptable for all (re-introducing the triple immersion and the chrismation of babies.
I don't think that the administrative unity will be re-established under these circunstances, but a full recognition of the validity of the sacraments is very important, I don't know what you think about this.

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122626 09/04/02 07:52 PM
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Alex,
Very nice song. I like that one.How about Baida...When he is hung by his ribs and asks the Sultan for a bow and arrow to shoot down a dove for him, instead he shoots the Sultan right between the ears.
Lauro

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122627 09/04/02 08:09 PM
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Dear Ipreima,

Baida Vyshnevetsky was a feisty one!

Did you know that he was a candidate for Orthodox sainthood after his death?

Panakhydas were served for him for years afterwards as they were for Bohdan Khmelnytsky (also a candidate for sainthood!).

This is mentioned in Vadim Scherbakiwsky's magnum opus on the history of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

The Kozaks were quickly developing their own "Church" and liturgical tradition, with their own Kozak Baroque and Kozak saints among whom were St Dmytry Tuptalenko and St Theodosius of Chernihiv.

Theodosius was only glorified at the beginning of this century, but he was long venerated locally by the Kozaks who memorized his popular Tropar and Kondak.

The Kozaks wrote seven Akathists to him, none of which the Russian Synod approved, even though there is an Akathist to him today.

Alex

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122628 09/04/02 08:12 PM
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Dear Remie,

There is nothing in what you say that I would disagree with.

I don't believe that administrative unity should be the goal - period.

There is no reason why true church union needs to be continuous with administrative unity. Why cannot the Particular Churches "do their own thing" without Rome acting as "big brother?"

And I agree that we must try to work at a common theological expression of our faith as Catholics and Orthodox.

I believe that we already are "almost the same" in terms of faith, but need to coin a mutually acceptable theological phraseology to express it in a way that is sensitive to traditions in both East and West.

Alex

Re: Reunion: impossible? #122629 09/04/02 09:48 PM
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Why should the Filioque be removed from the Latin Creed when it is theologically permissible even in Orthodoxy? That's like saying why don't we add the Filioque to all Eastern creeds. Both East and West find both terms acceptable, so why can't the Western tradition keep its tradition and the Eastern tradition keep its tradition? It seems some people are overenthusiastic about the West bending over backwards for the East; both sides will have to compromise, but it should come from both directions (in reality, I think it is, just so many people are overzealous about compromising the West).

ChristTeen287

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