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Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123047
09/15/02 11:54 PM
09/15/02 11:54 PM
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IrishJohan Offline OP
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This is for anyone here who may use materials by these folks... I believe it is time to call for a complete and total boycott of all materials from Robert Sungenis and Catholic Apologetics International. Please see the following: Just Your Average Catholic Guy


Pax Christi,
John
Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123048
09/16/02 12:16 AM
09/16/02 12:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 347
Colorado, USA
Nigula Qian Zishi Offline
尼古拉前执事
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Glory to Jesus Christ!

Then again before we react, maybe we should read what it says from CAI, no?

http://www.catholicintl.com/

God Bless!

IC XC NIKA,
-Nik!

Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123049
09/16/02 12:18 AM
09/16/02 12:18 AM
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White Plains, New York, United...
Mor Ephrem Offline
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I wouldn't mind the boycott if it was just on the charge of anti-semitism. But if you read Sungenis' article, there is a lot in there that is not anti-semite, and that reflects badly on the state of Roman Catholic theology in the modern era. For instance, the following quote:

The new document also contains an apology to the Jewish people for anti-Semitic passages contained in the New Testament, and also stresses the continuing importance of the Torah for Christians. That the PBC thinks it has to apologize for Scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit is quite audacious, but it may be explained by the fact that the PBC has long since denied that all the sayings of Jesus and the Apostles recorded in the New Testament are inspired by God.

I've never heard anyone specifically deny that this and other things the article mentions never happened; I've never seen a refutation of his work. If they never happened, then someone should let us know about it. If they did happen, though, there is a lot to answer for.

Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123050
09/16/02 12:21 AM
09/16/02 12:21 AM
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Mor Ephrem Offline
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And I have read the article, and while I can see why some might think there was anti-semitism in it, I didn't take away from my reading of it that it was anti-semitic. Of course, if you want to say it is anti-semitic, you should also say that it pretty much says that the RCC is sliding into heresy...in which case, Catholics have more of a reason to boycott, but only after proving that he's wrong, as he's brought up many points which demand an answer.

Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123051
09/16/02 12:24 AM
09/16/02 12:24 AM
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no one Offline
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I read their site and find them very frightening on many levels. Another private do-it-yourself Inquisition set up in my opinion. I find that scarier than any of the recent scandals in the Church. Don

Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123052
09/16/02 05:00 AM
09/16/02 05:00 AM
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IrishJohan Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by Nik:
Then again before we react, maybe we should read what it says from CAI, no?
http://www.catholicintl.com/


My apologies for not making that clear. I have said on my weblog that everyone should read the article in question for themselves. By all means, please do so.


Pax Christi,
John
Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123053
09/16/02 05:02 AM
09/16/02 05:02 AM
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IrishJohan Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by Mor Ephrem:
I wouldn't mind the boycott if it was just on the charge of anti-semitism. But if you read Sungenis' article, there is a lot in there that is not anti-semite, and that reflects badly on the state of Roman Catholic theology in the modern era.


It is only for the anti-Semitism, nothing more. I know nothing of the Talmud so cannot take a position one way or the other about his comments concerning it. I also have expressed my own reservations about the Reflections document on my weblog.


Pax Christi,
John
Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123054
09/16/02 12:31 PM
09/16/02 12:31 PM
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White Plains, New York, United...
Mor Ephrem Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by IrishJohan:


It is only for the anti-Semitism, nothing more. I know nothing of the Talmud so cannot take a position one way or the other about his comments concerning it. I also have expressed my own reservations about the Reflections document on my weblog.


Thanks, Irish Johan. I guess I should've made myself a bit more clear. If Sungenis' article was just one long anti-semite rant, boycott away. But I guess I just see more pertinent issues than anti-semitism (and from my reading of it, as I said, even though I understand how some could read it as anti-semite, that's not what I got from it). If an article was anti-Catholic but praised hardcore child pornography as a legitimate art form that should be propagated, I would have more of a problem with the child pornography part than with the anti-Catholicism. Maybe that's just how I look at things. So if this article has anti-semitic tones to it, it still doesn't bother me nearly as much as the allegations that are made against the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather see someone refute his arguments against the Roman Catholic Church in as systematic a fashion as he made them before I even begin to tackle any questions of anti-semitism.

Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123055
09/16/02 12:53 PM
09/16/02 12:53 PM
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The poor Jews!

So bright and so talented, yet so despised.

Well, in the case of the Jews, Christians and Muslims do have something in common: hatred for Jews.

And why do the Muslims and Christians so despise the Jews? Maybe it is out of fear. After all, the Jews have historically rejected the claims of Christianity and Islam to be the "true faith" (and have paid a terrible price of millions martyred for their "obstinacy.")

Maybe the Khazars were right?

Am Yisroel kai!

Abdur

[ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: traveler ]

Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123056
09/16/02 02:13 PM
09/16/02 02:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
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PA
Seeker of God Offline
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I find it an incredibly absurd reading of history that happens today, when people act like Christians killed Jews and it never happened the opposite way. I hope that's not what you too believe, Abdur. Saul of Tarsus was not the first Jew to condone the murder Christians for their beliefs, and he was far from the last.

I don't "hate" Jews, and I know few people who hate individual Jews; at most, the Church Fathers hated the culture and religion of the Jews, and used it as an example of unbelief. Gee, that kinda sounds like how the Jews used certain religions/cultures as bad examples. So what morally seperates anti-babylonianism (or anti-Egyptian, or...) and anti-semitism? Nothing, if the charges are true.

Btw, I have a Jewish Uncle, Aunt, and 2 cousins, and we have no problem getting along. I'm not anti-semitic; I'm just against anochronistic readings of history.

[ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: Seeker of God ]


He who can without strain keep vigil, be long-suffering and pray is manifestly a partaker of the Holy Spirit. But he who feels strain while doing these things, yet willingly endures it, also quickly receives help. - Mark the Monk
Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123057
09/16/02 03:18 PM
09/16/02 03:18 PM
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Emerald Terrace
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Deleted by Abdur

[ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: traveler ]

Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123058
09/16/02 03:25 PM
09/16/02 03:25 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Seeker of God:
I find it an incredibly absurd reading of history that happens today, when people act like Christians killed Jews and it never happened the opposite way. I hope that's not what you too believe, Abdur. Saul of Tarsus was not the first Jew to condone the murder Christians for their beliefs, and he was far from the last.

I don't "hate" Jews, and I know few people who hate individual Jews; at most, the Church Fathers hated the [b]culture and religion
of the Jews, and used it as an example of unbelief. Gee, that kinda sounds like how the Jews used certain religions/cultures as bad examples. So what morally seperates anti-babylonianism (or anti-Egyptian, or...) and anti-semitism? Nothing, if the charges are true.

Btw, I have a Jewish Uncle, Aunt, and 2 cousins, and we have no problem getting along. I'm not anti-semitic; I'm just against anochronistic readings of history.

[ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: Seeker of God ][/b]


If you hate a person's
religion or culture, you hate him. If you hate Judaism, you hate the religion of Jesus and you hate....... .

If we are counting casualties I am sure the facts testify to the reality that many more Jews have been the victims of Christian and Muslim perfidy than the other-way-around.

Certainly, Judaism is the most creative and dynamic of contemporary monotheistic religions. As you might know, attending shul is a moving and intellectually stimulating experience since a rabbi's creativity is not inhibited by anachronistic dogmas. Judaism is a living religion and not what Christians and Muslims--by their dogmas--are forced to believe it is: a religious and cultural anachronism.

Judaism is dynamic.

Abdur

[ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: traveler ]

Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123059
09/16/02 04:56 PM
09/16/02 04:56 PM
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Roslyn, WA
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George Blaisdell Offline
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Abdur writes:

Christians and Muslims do have something in common: hatred for Jews.

... Muslims and Christians ... despise the Jews... maybe ... out of fear.

Good grief, Abdur! Muslims can be legitimately, ant at that only in part, the radical part, called haters of Jews - And if you have been watching that Taliban training tape that they love to play over and over on the networks, that is a Christian Cross that is on the wall inside the building that the Molsem soldiers are practicing their assaults upon and pointing their weapons at.

Christians do not hate Jews, although I am sure that you can find some who do, and Jews do not hate Christians, although I am sure you can find some who do, and the same with Moslems... Orthodox Christians in the Arabic countries expect to often be hated, discriminated against, and persecuted in their Moslem countries, and they normally accept this as a general rule without complaining, although they do try to obtrain what legal remedies they can, scant though they often are. Their legal status is much like that of the southern Black person in the 50s - There is nothing more that really can be done that will not result in more violence and bloodshed, and they live very socially martyric lives. That is simply the way things are in most Moslem countries where Christians are allowed. They just try to get along as best they can, and live in a crucible hard for us to imagine.

Hatred and despising of peoples are not a part of Christianity except by abberrance, and this whole business of hating and despising of Jews by Christians - I mean, when is the last time you heard of a Christian killing a Jew because the Jew is a Jew and the Christian a Christian? That is nuts! You will hear of some Moslems doing that, on a regular and suicidal basis, but never Christians...

Why on earth would you lump these two groups together in the same bag you label "Jew Hating"? Have you read the [Jewish] author Bat Y'eor's works on Dhimitude and Islam - She finds her Christian brethren in Moslem countries in much the same boat, and worse, as the Jews of pre-WWII in Europe, and in almost identical stews in Moslem countries.

Does Israel have a policy of extracting Jews into Israel from oppressive Moslem states in the Middle East now? I remember they did that big one out of Africa... Christians have no "Israel" in the Middle East to which they can flee - They simply do their best with the oppressive regimes in which they find themselves - They are, I am told, a very practical peoples...

geo


"Be not troubling of you the heart..."
Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123060
09/16/02 05:34 PM
09/16/02 05:34 PM
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Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
Columcille Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by IrishJohan:


It is only for the anti-Semitism, nothing more. I know nothing of the Talmud so cannot take a position one way or the other about his comments concerning it. I also have expressed my own reservations about the Reflections document on my weblog.


Perhaps if you did read the Talmud, you would come away with a different perspective. It is littered with vile hatred for Jesus, the Theotokos and Christians in general. It also states that Jews are superior to every other race and that Gentiles are really dogs in human form, put here to serve the Jew.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmudx.htm

Here are some exerpts from the Talmud. The website looks like some radical Fundamentalist site, but the information may be useful.

Columcille

Re: Boycott of Robert Sungenis & CAI #123061
09/16/02 05:52 PM
09/16/02 05:52 PM
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Maximus Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by George Blaisdell:


Does Israel have a policy of extracting Jews into Israel from oppressive Moslem states in the Middle East now? I remember they did that big one out of Africa... Christians have no "Israel" in the Middle East to which they can flee - They simply do their best with the oppressive regimes in which they find themselves - They are, I am told, a very practical peoples...

geo[/QB]



That was Ethiopia. A Christian state. Orthodox Christianity (of the Oriental and Ethopian stripe) being the state religion for close to 2000 years. And if memory serves me correct it was, the historical air lift, that occured when after, the Communist over through the State and Christian monarchy.

Many Ethiopian Jews were saved from starvation by the Israelie intervention.

On another note: It would probably be sensible to suspect that the Ethiopian Jews lived as "marginalized" citizens under the Christian State. That a glass ceiling did exist. It would also be note worthy to state that Ethiopia was not a Western Christian state, where one could fondly recall how Latin Christians were being the bad guys, if any bad guy existed.

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