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Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124618
07/04/06 08:19 AM
07/04/06 08:19 AM
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The young fogey Offline
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When I essentially wrote the same thing four years ago I was run off (privately asked to leave).

Glad the temperature has changed such that one can write that here and not have that happen anymore.

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124619
07/04/06 10:41 AM
07/04/06 10:41 AM
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Pittsburgh
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Nestor Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Miller:
Speaking as an Orthodox Christian and layman, I may find the discussion interesting. However, this is an internal Catholic matter and nothing to do with ecumenical relations with the Orthodox.
When official dialogue takes place, the discussion deals with theology not liturgy. Individual Orthodox priests or lay people may comment; however, these comments have nothing to do with the official ecumenical theological dialogue. To put the shoe on the other foot: we Orthodox would not be concerned about Catholic comments regarding our internal liturgal matters.
I am another Orthodox layman who agrees with this. I do 'feel' for my older RC friends who remember the old rite, but after 40 years it may be a moot point...but not one I'm willing to argue as an Orthodox - there are meaningful issues to address as noted above.

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124620
07/04/06 12:59 PM
07/04/06 12:59 PM
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but not one I'm willing to argue as an Orthodox - there are meaningful issues to address as noted above.
Nestor, I agree that this is not something we should argue as it is not an issue we can influence or that affects us. I would actually say this is as meaningful as any other issue though. Ecumenism, if meant in the context or some sort of reconciliation and restoration of ecclesial relations between East and West, has probably at least two dimensions. One of course is structural and theological, and that of course is being carried out by the hierarchies of both bodies.

There is the dimension of the “ground” or grass roots level though. Both sides have to be willing and interested in participating in the liturgical life of the other body to some extent. Were either side to feel alienated, bewildered or disturbed what is going on in the other – real reconciliation would not happen, even if the hierarchies came to some formal agreement. It would not be a real reconciliation, and would probably come undone as easily as the union brought about by the pseudo council of Florence.

So my opinion is this is extremely meaningful, and something I can relate to in my own experience.

Andrew

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124621
07/04/06 01:08 PM
07/04/06 01:08 PM
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New York
ElijahmariaX Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Rilian:
I agree that this is not something we should argue as it is not an issue we can influence or that affects us. I would actually say this is as meaningful as any other issue though. Ecumenism, if meant in the context or some sort of reconciliation and restoration of ecclesial relations between East and West, has probably at least two dimensions. One of course is structural and theological, and that of course is being carried out by the hierarchies of both bodies.

There is the dimension of the “ground” or grass roots level though. Both sides have to be willing and interested in participating in the liturgical life of the other body to some extent. Were either side to feel alienated, bewildered or disturbed what is going on in the other – real reconciliation would not happen, even if the hierarchies came to some formal agreement. It would not be a real reconciliation, and would probably come undone as easily as the union brought about by the pseudo council of Florence.

So my opinion is this is extremely meaningful, and something I can relate to in my own experience.

Andrew
Ah-ha! Finally!

Absolute agreement!

Eli

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124622
07/04/06 01:12 PM
07/04/06 01:12 PM
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Dallas
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Mark of Ephesus Offline
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Were either side to feel alienated, bewildered or disturbed what is going on in the other – real reconciliation would not happen, even if the hierarchies came to some formal agreement. It would not be a real reconciliation, and would probably come undone as easily as the union brought about by the pseudo council of Florence.
Andrew,

Well said. Remember that any attempt at reunion would have to find support at the grass-roots level among Orthodox. To be eventually successful, it would have to be sustained against criticism by not only all the Orthodox hierarchies but also from monastics, parish clergy and pious laity.

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124623
07/10/06 12:13 AM
07/10/06 12:13 AM
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LatinCat Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Jessup B.C. Deacon:
Another thing which I think should be mentioned is that the so-called "Tridentine Mass" actually pre-dates Trent. What was promulgated by Pius V was a freezing of the Western Liturgy as it was in contemporary Roman usage. It was also to replace a lot of other local usages in the West.
That form of the Liturgy has it's authorship attributed to St. Gregory the Great (Dialogos), and, in terms of it's antiquity, is comparable to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. It is my understanding that the Sarum usage, for example, is quite close to what was frozen by Pius V. The "reform of the reform" that is being discussed today, should, in my opinion, be one of taking that ancient Gregorian Liturgy, and translating it into venacular languages, in conjunction with restoration of authentic sacred music.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert
Preach On!!!! smile

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124624
07/10/06 09:49 PM
07/10/06 09:49 PM
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wichita, ks
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wichita, ks
"Don't pray at mass, but pray the holy mass." Pius X

Very hard to do at the NO.

Easy to do at the TLM.


smile smile

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124625
07/10/06 10:52 PM
07/10/06 10:52 PM
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UNDER THE PANTOCRATOR
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"Topic: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy"

Duh!

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124626
07/11/06 03:39 PM
07/11/06 03:39 PM
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Georgia
Logos - Alexis Offline
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Memo,

I think those Traditionalists are not so much concerned about ecumenism as they are about pointing out how hypocritical it is for those who champion the New Mass are also oftentimes the ones who push for ecumenism (ostensibly), all the while ignoring the fact that it pushes us further away from that other Christian Church with which we are most similar. It seems a truly ecumenical move would be to restore traditional liturgy, not a "fabricated liturgy, a "banal on-the-spot product," as our Holy Father puts it.

I do think it sometimes highlights who the real enemies of true ecumenism are.

Logos Teen

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124627
07/11/06 04:47 PM
07/11/06 04:47 PM
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LatinCat Offline
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Originally posted by Teen Of The Incarnate Logos:
Memo,

I think those Traditionalists are not so much concerned about ecumenism as they are about pointing out how hypocritical it is for those who champion the New Mass are also oftentimes the ones who push for ecumenism (ostensibly), all the while ignoring the fact that it pushes us further away from that other Christian Church with which we are most similar. It seems a truly ecumenical move would be to restore traditional liturgy, not a "fabricated liturgy, a "banal on-the-spot product," as our Holy Father puts it.

I do think it sometimes highlights who the real enemies of true ecumenism are.

Logos Teen
You are absolutely correct. The problem is that the "champions of the new mass" are more concerned with the feelings of protestants than they are with bringing our eastern orthodox brethren home to the Church. Its seems quite silly to me.

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124628
07/12/06 12:10 AM
07/12/06 12:10 AM
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Originally posted by LatinCat:
The problem is that the "champions of the new mass" are more concerned with the feelings of protestants than they are with bringing our eastern orthodox brethren home to the Church. Its seems quite silly to me.
How would you say the champions of the Novus Ordo are more interested in catering to the feelings of Protestants as compared to bringing the Orthodox "home to the church"?

Andrew

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124629
07/12/06 01:38 AM
07/12/06 01:38 AM
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Western Australia
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What champions of the 'new mass'? How many of those who were making decisions at Vat II are still alive, not to many is my guess. Who are these promoters who are busy with Protestants. Hopefully you will provide names known outside the USA.

What is silly is that you continue to be offensive in your language to the Orthodox and patronising to the Oriental Catholics with your insistance on lecturing us on how ignorant you are.

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124630
07/12/06 04:46 PM
07/12/06 04:46 PM
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North of Scotland
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Highlander Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Jessup B.C. Deacon:
Another thing which I think should be mentioned is that the so-called "Tridentine Mass" actually pre-dates Trent. What was promulgated by Pius V was a freezing of the Western Liturgy as it was in contemporary Roman usage. It was also to replace a lot of other local usages in the West.
That form of the Liturgy has it's authorship attributed to St. Gregory the Great (Dialogos), and, in terms of it's antiquity, is comparable to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.
By that criterion the present Roman Missal also goes back to St Gregory the Great, since it includes the Roman Canon.
ISTM that there must be serious problems in the US with the way the Mass is delivered. In the last 40 years I have attended Mass in Scotland, England, Ireland, Australia, France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Cyprus, Greece, Portugal and Tunisia. There have been times when the Liturgy has been inadequately delivered, it is true, but there have been times when the presence of God was palpable, times for applauding, and times for weeping.
IMO (no H) those self-styled "Traditionalists" who reject Vatican II and Papal authority are committing the same mistake as those who simply ignore the church's teachings and directives: they are failing to observe Holy Obedience. They may think they are diametrically opposed, but they have the same motto: "I will not serve".

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124631
07/12/06 05:30 PM
07/12/06 05:30 PM
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Dallas
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Mark of Ephesus Offline
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IMO (no H) those self-styled "Traditionalists" who reject Vatican II and Papal authority are committing the same mistake as those who simply ignore the church's teachings and directives: they are failing to observe Holy Obedience. They may think they are diametrically opposed, but they have the same motto: "I will not serve
Highlander,

Is "Holy Obedience" in Roman Catholicism therefore accorded more weight than Holy Tradition? If the answer is yes, than there are indeed Ecumenical considerations in the way that Roman authority effectively overturned a 1500 year old liturgical tradition and the Orthodox East should indeed approach any re-union with caution.

Re: Novus Ordo Liturgy Seen As An Obstacle To Ecumenism With Eastern Orthodoxy #124632
07/12/06 05:35 PM
07/12/06 05:35 PM
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North of Scotland
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Highlander Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Mark of Ephesus:
Is "Holy Obedience" in Roman Catholicism therefore accorded more weight than Holy Tradition? If the answer is yes, than there are indeed Ecumenical considerations in the way that Roman authority effectively overturned a 1500 year old liturgical tradition and the Orthodox East should indeed approach any re-union with caution. [/QB]
I don't agree that a 1500 year old liturgical tradition has been overturned

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