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A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125798 07/03/06 03:53 AM
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Dr. Eric Offline OP
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Here's an article that was linked to Serge Beeler's Blog called Convert Provocateurs: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics and Orthodox

http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/13.7docs/13-7pg17.html

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125799 07/03/06 06:20 AM
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Stephanos I Offline
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Is not one bound in conscience to lead others to the fullness of truth?
I am not saying that as a slight against Orthodoxy in the least, but if we believe that communion with Rome is essential for the fullest expression of Catholicity then we have to try to lead others to communion with Rome.
Stephanos I

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125800 07/03/06 10:26 AM
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Here's a comment from an earlier period:

God bless the King, the Church's true Defender,
and bless - no harm to bless - the Pretender.
But which Pretender be, and which be King,
God bless us all; that's quite another thing!

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125801 07/03/06 10:58 AM
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Father Hart is correct. That is why I love the mission of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

CDL

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125802 07/03/06 06:48 PM
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I have always been confused by the whole underlying problem between some Catholics and Orthodox Christians and this dividing into camps.

Why do some apologists in either camp feel the need to throw barbs? It's silly. It is also counterproductive. When the barbs lobbed by either camp come from someone with the title of priest or deacon or theologian it is even worse - to me, and this is only my personal opinion, that's someone who has misinterpreted his calling speaking out for the detriment of apostolic Christianity.

Disagree respectfully.

To other very lucky people who are from the "mixed" C/O background - didn't your parents and their respective sides of the family make nice and respect each others religious beliefs and traditions fully? Mine sure did. No one ever argued about religion.

There have always been differences between Christian communities; reading the various Letters and Acts will show us all that. Usually, the message is stop fighting and start going back to trying to walk in imitation of Christ. That should not be rocket science for apostolic Christians.

By all means, we should defend our own beliefs. But there is a difference between that and picking fights. Some of the materials I've read in the whole C/O back and forth have really been the latter. And that's sad. And most unChristian.

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125803 07/03/06 06:50 PM
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[Just wanted to be clear about my prior post - it was in response to the article and the "need" for it - and not in response to any comments made by prior posters.]

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125804 07/03/06 07:39 PM
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Quote
. . . That should not be rocket science for apostolic Christians.
The problem is these so-called apologists, for either side, have put into heart their "rocket science!"

They are continually launching their "rockets" into the other side with nary a "Hail Mary" or with plainly-labelled "To Whom It May Concern" bombs!

It's time to end our version of the "Cold War!"

Amado

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125805 07/03/06 11:20 PM
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Apologetics/polemics are inevitable when there is a pool of people out there who may be potential converts, even if you were to discount the idea that Catholics and Orthodox were trying to convert each other. They aren't necessarily a bad thing.

Catholics believe they have the fullness of faith as mentioned in a post above, the Orthodox likewise. That is going to lead some people out there to be willing to present the case for people converting to their church as opposed to the other.

Andrew

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125806 07/04/06 03:30 PM
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Michael B Offline
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Dear Andrew,

You stated:

Quote
Catholics believe they have the fullness of faith as mentioned in a post above, the Orthodox likewise.
Using the right lung/left lung theory, did you not know that it is only the Byzantine Catholics who possess the true fullness of Faith? [both lung theory] biggrin biggrin biggrin

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125807 07/04/06 04:50 PM
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Interestingly, I have seen in Roman Catholic apologetics/polemics directed at the Orthodox, numerous statements and quotations that I would consider as offensive to Eastern Catholics as they are to Orthodox. In my experience it is not uncommon among Roman Catholic apologists to regard Eastern Catholics as members of "rites" and not "churches". In other words, Roman Catholics in Eastern garb.

That has been my experience anyway, for whatever that is worth.

Andrew

[also, I have been told by numerous Roman Catholics that the "other lung" refers to the Eastern Catholics, not the Orthodox]

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125808 07/04/06 09:21 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Stephanos I:
Is not one bound in conscience to lead others to the fullness of truth?
I am not saying that as a slight against Orthodoxy in the least, but if we believe that communion with Rome is essential for the fullest expression of Catholicity then we have to try to lead others to communion with Rome.
Stephanos I
Though I tend to agree, how does one reconcile this sentiment with documents like the Balamand Agrrmeement that highlight an "out-dated ecclesiology of return to the Catholic Church" and state that, "Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other; that is to say, it no longer aims at proselytizing among the Orthodox."

Forgive my lack of theological and ecclesiological understanding. Without wanting to open old wounds, and for a more thorough comprehension of modern ecumenical relations between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, I must ask: what is the difference between proselytism and missionary evangelism?

God bless,

Chris

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125809 07/10/06 04:02 AM
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LatinCat Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Rilian:
Interestingly, I have seen in Roman Catholic apologetics/polemics directed at the Orthodox, numerous statements and quotations that I would consider as offensive to Eastern Catholics as they are to Orthodox. In my experience it is not uncommon among Roman Catholic apologists to regard Eastern Catholics as members of "rites" and not "churches". In other words, Roman Catholics in Eastern garb.

That has been my experience anyway, for whatever that is worth.

Andrew

[also, I have been told by numerous Roman Catholics that the "other lung" refers to the Eastern Catholics, not the Orthodox]
The apologists who refert to the Eastern Churches as rites also often refer to the "Roman Rite" or "Latin Rite" when refering to the western Church. It has nothing to do with disrespect. Its just that western Catholics (of which I am one) tend to view the Catholic Church, both east and west, as ONE Church, Christ's ONE body, the only bride of Christ, and the universal ark of salvation. When you approach ecclesiology in this way, the lines drawn between east and west tend to fade, and we view all that are in communion with Rome as one body. There is no "east is better than west" nor "west is better than east", but rather, we share the ONE faith found in the Scriptures, Tradition, and the over twenty ecumenical councils. For this reason, a western Catholic is less likely to refer to any particular church (east or west) as a church because we tend to reserve that term for the universal Church. It may not be the appropriate terminology, but that is the source refering to churches as rites.

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125810 07/10/06 08:43 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by LatinCat:
The apologists who refert to the Eastern Churches as rites also often refer to the "Roman Rite" or "Latin Rite" when refering to the western Church. It has nothing to do with disrespect. Its just that western Catholics (of which I am one) tend to view the Catholic Church, both east and west, as ONE Church, Christ's ONE body, the only bride of Christ, and the universal ark of salvation. When you approach ecclesiology in this way, the lines drawn between east and west tend to fade, and we view all that are in communion with Rome as one body. There is no "east is better than west" nor "west is better than east", but rather, we share the ONE faith found in the Scriptures, Tradition, and the over twenty ecumenical councils. For this reason, a western Catholic is less likely to refer to any particular church (east or west) as a church because we tend to reserve that term for the universal Church. It may not be the appropriate terminology, but that is the source refering to churches as rites.
However, as a newcomer to this forum I was surprised at the extent to which theology is different as between the churches of the Catholic Church. I find it helpful to think of this as analogous to the way we use English on this Forum. In one sense it's all the one language, but the English used by Americans is different from British English, and both are different from Australian English and so on. There are possibilities of misunderstanding, confusion and embarrassment which are not even suspected by those familiar with only one dialect. I think we have also "dialects" of Catholicism. (I also think that members of Catholic Churches of the Byzantine Rite can fall into believing that they are the only "Eastern" catholicism. But then they're human too.)

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125811 07/10/06 10:58 AM
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The tendency of viewing the Church as one is not uncommon among Latins, who often think they 'are' the Church. For many it is a big shock that there are other Catholics out there of various non Latin traditions. Mind you we are not very big in numbers compared with them or even the venerable Orthodox Churches, so we are easy to miss.

As I have said elsewhere, the previous relationship with the Latin Rite has not always been good and when it has been bad, it has been very bad. Things are looking up these days and I am optomistic.

Re: A Plea Against Polemics Between Catholics & Orthodox #125812 07/10/06 12:37 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Thepeug:
Forgive my lack of theological and ecclesiological understanding. Without wanting to open old wounds, and for a more thorough comprehension of modern ecumenical relations between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, I must ask: what is the difference between proselytism and missionary evangelism?

God bless,

Chris
:p

If the Orthodox are doing it, it is missionary evangelization.

If the other Catholics are doing it, it is proselytism.

:p

Eli the Mensch

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