Dear Friends,

To our friends who are Latin Catholics and who have either come over to the Eastern Catholic Churches or are thinking of doing so - just a question.

If the Tridentine liturgy was still the official liturgy of the Latin Catholic Church, would you still be looking Eastward?

Alex

Yes.

Dear Father Deacon,

I meant "Latins" not "Lances!"

Are you a former Latin?

Don't tell me . . . the same as the above response?

Alex

yes.

Yes, I would. It's home. It was home the first time I ever went to a Byzantine liturgy, about 10 years ago.

I do think that the west would be better off going to some sort of modified vernacular Tridentine liturgy, but their current liturgical problems aren't the reasons I am where I am, anymore than an old girlfriend's faults are the reasons I'm married to my wife. I fell in love.

Yes.

Dear Administrator,

Begging your pardon, Sir, but don't you think I deserve some sort of commendation for having started a thread with some of the most succinct and to-the-point posts ever recorded on the Byzantine Forum?

Yes?

Alex

Alex,

Yes, Baptized, First Confessed, First Communed, Confirmed, and Married in the Latin Church. Although I had Greek Catholic relatives (and ancestors) with whom I was close so I was always around both traditions. The Byzantine Church is my home, I just wasn't born into it.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

Well, the first form of the Sign of the Cross I ever learned was the Latin one . . .

And you sound like a cradle BC . . .

Alex

Yes, but only because I was raised post-Vatican II, and the Tridentine Mass is just as foreign to me as the Byzantine Divine Liturgy.

I was recently asked, if the local Roman diocese decided to obey Rome and offer the Indult, would I return to attend it, and reverse my path to Byzantium?

No, I would not. I'm home in Byzantium, and I've found peace and joy in mass for the first time in my adult life.

I never experienced that at the Indult Latin masses I have attended, and after much relection, I don't think I would now.

I'm currently reading "Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends and Doctrinal Themes" by John Meyendorff.

I must admit, its an aweful lot like learning a whole new foreign language.

And I have no problem with the married clergy of the eastern rite, though close friends, including a retired Byzantine priest, are very much opposed to it. I would never campaign for it amongst the Roman Rite, but now that I've met married eastern clergy, I see it as a natural part of the eastern Catholic tradition.

(Finally, I ask for patience and forgiveness if we "Latins" seem angry and harsh.

Its impossible to know what we've been through in some of these heterodox Roman dioceses.

The only thing comparable for a Catholic born to the eastern rite is the trials your people suffered here when Roman clergy persecuted your priests and faithful.

Remember that before you post harsh or judgemental replies to "Latins".)

Dear DocBrian,

Touche! Touche!

I'll leave you alone from now on . . .

Alex

I'd be interested in both. My interest is in the ancient traditions and the genuine spirituality of both traditions which I like to mix and match in my own personal life.

East and West have unique treasures to offer of their own accord. I figure, why choose one or the other? I choose both.

You have an excellent perspective on these matters, and even if I'm a bit "cranky" I value your input.

We all need "humbled" occasionally. Feel free to correct me any time I get out of line

Dear DocBrian,

You too, Big Guy, you too!

Are you a "Brian?" I understand that there is a "St Brian" in the calendar - King of Eire, I believe, although there are those who can't believe he made it to sainthood!

Nonetheless . . .

Alex

Glory be to Jesus Christ!

Having experienced many different forms of the Latin liturgy (from Children's Masses to sung Latin/English Pauline Masses to "high" and "low" Tridentine Masses) I can say without a doubt that I prefer to go to Divine Liturgy (to say nothing of the other aspects of Eastern Christian spiritually, theology, etc.)

--Mark Therrien

Yes, I'm a "Brian Joseph" to be exact.

If you have any links or resources on "St. Brian," I'd really appreciate them!

Dear DocBrian,

I'll have to look up St Brian of Ireland in Holweck's Dictionary of the Saints.

Blessed Brian Lacey was martyred for his Catholic faith in London in December of 1591.

St Edmund Arrowsmith's first name was "Brian" but he used his Confirmation name of "Edmund." Feast - August 28.

Alex

Yes, Yes, Yes!

Me too: Yes!

Dear father Daniel,

I guess with all the kids in your wonderful family, it would have been too much to expect YOU to be a cradle BC!

Cheers!

Alex

It's not that simple to answer, more like Liturgy, Altars, Eucharistic Ministers, Altar Girls, removing Sacred Objects , Respect & Reverence ....sorry...you asked Alex .

I drawn the line with seeing navel rings at Mass.


james

ps - had I known about the East prior to the wreck, most likely yes I would explore it, but most priests I have met do not like discussing or acknowledging the EC side.

I'm just looking East and trying to be nourished by the light you guys shine.

As was said above, why not have both? We're supposed to breath out of both lungs, right?

Good point. Rome ignored the east for far too long, to its loss. Now the east wants to jettison anything remotely "Latin," and could be throwing out the baby with the bath water in the process.

Eastern Catholicism is the ideal intermediary that should have the sense to breathe deep with both lungs, neither ignoring the roots to the east nor repudiating those lobes found only in the west.

Yes, the patient can live with only half their lungs, but why?

They can do so much more using both, and neither is mutually exclusive.

Dear Alex,

The Holy Spirit brought us to the Byzantine Church, so a resounding YES!.

Alleluia!

Slava Isusu Christu!
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Michael

I'm Latin born and Latin bred, and when I die, I'll be Latin dead. I love the East passionately, and go to Divine Liturgy many times a year, but I truly love Scholasticism and statuary, and the thought process of authentic western Christianity. Problem is, we Latins have not just abandoned the mystical elements of Holy Mass, we've abandoned the contemplative aspects of our Church as well (Works of the Saints, paraliturgical devotions.) I think we Latins would be flourishing if we kept the 1965 Missal. But, the 1970 Missal, when celebrated appropriately, can be quite lovely.

My question for you Easterners is how often do you ever get a chance to really experience the sublime beauty of authentic Latin Catholicism? I hope some of you do; it's ideal for both us to breathe with both of our lungs.

Dear Alex,

From my posts here this past year...my answer should be obvious to many.

Yes!!!!

I grew up with the Tridentine Mass and I spent many years actively involved in the Latin Church after Vatican II.

But now--to me....the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is a taste of heaven, and all that goes with it and Eastern Christianity: bells, smells, icons, the voices blended in worship, the history, reverence, fellowship, traditions, Saints, eschatology, and more. I discovered this not because I was running away from something...but because I was looking for it only didn't know what it was for years and years...nor was this available where I lived until recent years.

However, living in a rural area which is quite a distance from the nearest BC Church...we are still attending the Latin Catholic church in a nearby town where I am probably the only person making the Sign of the Cross in the Eastern Way. Hopefully, in time we will move closer to the city. Meanwhile, we try to visit the Ruthenian church when we can drive the distance or are staying in town for the weekend. And I have this forum online and all the reading I have been doing out here in the country.

I am glad you asked that question. It really bothers me when Eastern Catholics think all of us Latins are coming or interested because we want the Tridentine Rite back. However, I know many do come for those reasons. They need to be educated about and experience what the other lung of the Catholic church is all about. I love the Divine Liturgy and respect the Byzantine Catholics and other Eastern Christians I know. This is gift in my life. And hopefully..the best (for me) is yet to come!

In Christ and the Theotokos,

Mary Jo

I think I would give it a try in Europe, where people haven't lost their sense of respect & reverence. But here in the U.S., I've reached the point of no return - completely fed up!
I've also fallen in love with Eastern Christianity - rather easily.

Yes. The Tridentine Rite was before my time, and I have never experienced it, and thus I have no longiong to go back to it.

Even if it had never been dropped, I think I would still be looking toward Orthodoxy because (1) mysticism is normal in Orthodoxy, (2) there is not a legalistic and philosophical approach to God, the Gospel or life in Orthodoxy and (3) the Orthodox teachings on birth control and divorce make sense to me.

--John

--John

I remember the Tridentine Mass of my youth, but I was a Novus Ordo kind of guy most of my adult life.

I saw nothing wrong with it where I lived, and I grew to know and love the clergy. I was satisfied for the most part and only desired more, more, more!

An interest in the Patristic literature and quotes of the desert fathers grabbed me first, and I am no scholar by any means, but I read more and more: Ware, Raya and Spidlik. The Eastern spirituality and theology just seemed so right, sensible. If you can understand what I mean: clean and uncomplicated theology, open and understandable (to me anyway)with a healthy respect for the mystery and an earthy sense of the sacramental. It seemed like all of a sudden everything made more sense than it ever made before.

During that process I started to look for an Eastern parish and when I found it I fell in love with a liturgy that perfectly expressed everything I believe, and seemed too me proper worship, it was glorious.

The Eastern church has changed me forever.

YES

I was a Latin Catholic who went East.

And I had the opportunity to go to a Tridentine Mass (limited to once a month) but when I experienced the Heavenly worship of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, I was hooked and I cried tears of repentance and joy.

My aunt took me to a Maronite Liturgy which was celebrated in Aramaic and I met the married pastor and his wife. The joy and holiness he radiated and the great food his charitable wife shared touched the depth of my soul.

p.s. When my Aunt told me that my ancestors were French Lebanese ... then I knew for sure that the Eastern Church was my ancestral Church. And did you know that St. Thomas More was also from French Lebanese ancestry (my ancestor)?

Yes I believe that I would be, but maybe not so much as a means to participate on Sunday obligations. My first love is the TLM. I guess I am always going to look at things from a Western viewpoint. Maybe because that is just the way I was raised. What I find a bit disturbing is that I did not even know there were ERCC until I was in my thirties !!!!!! I went to Catholic grade school and high school too.

The Latin Mass (Tridentine) has its own beauty and holiness, for Latins of course. It's a shame that Latins have to endure what is in reality a truncated liturgy (and since there is no EC church in commuting distance in my town, I have to endure itr as well).I think about an aquaintence of mine who converted from Fundamentalism to Catholicism, and is plus catholique que le papa, and last I heard, he was going to the (non authorized) Tridentine Mass in Benton, TN. for me, the Latin church has been pretty much alien to me in many ways, and I suggest that the question could be turned around and one could ask if an Eastern would want to turn Latin, and I, for my part, can heartily answer NO.
Much Love,
Jonn

I think a point which should be stressed here is that the ancient Roman liturgy, when done in its fullness (Solemn High Mass or High Mass) is also a mystical taste of Heaven.

The problem that we had in the Latin Church was the very thing the Liturgical Movement was seeking to redress -- a more minimalistic approach to authentic Roman liturgy. If we can correct that, both lungs will return to their inheritance. The East is to be commended for never having lost this in typical parish worship.

I personally think East and West need each other and have something to offer in both directions.

Hi, Billy - -

I re-quoted your post above because I thought it was so well-written and I didn't see that anyone had responded to it!

I too am a Latin-till-death Catholic, and my good experiences with the Byzantine Catholic Church have only served to reinforce my love for the Latin Rite. Though I have faithfully attended the Divine Liturgy for a couple of years now and love it, every so often I have the urge to sneak away and attend Mass at one of the beautiful California Missions (like San Juan Capistrano or San Fernando). There's nothing like it if you want to experience a connection with the Church of the ages!

I also say yes. The operative phrase on this thread is,"Found a home'.

Jonn, you probably are aware that there is a Traditional Latin Mass on the 1st Sunday of each month at St. Stephen Church in Chattanooga. It is fully approved and endorsed by the RC Bishop of Knoxville.

I couldn't agree with you more sir. What was suppose to be a liturgical development has turned into a fabricated liturgy with no flow, bland language, and abuses too many to list here. In fact, the blander the better !!

It's hard to say in my case. I was an altar
boy in the pre-conciliar Western Church, and
I will always be attached to the Traditional
Mass and Devotions (Benediction, Tenebrae,
Stations of the Cross, et al). However, it's
not just the Tridentine Mass that needs to be
restored in the Western Church. It's the whole
"sense of the sacred" that has been lost. I fear
that if all of a sudden the Traditional Mass
was restored to the Western Church, it would
unavoidably be subject to the same sort of
abuses that are so widespread in the Novus Ordo,
and would end up just as bland and banal as
most Novus Ordo services are. That's why "Latin
refugees" like me are so concerned with the
upcoming "New Translation of the Liturgy" as we
don't want to see a "Novus Ordo-nization" of the
Ruthenian Rite.

antonius

oh, yes. in fact, I live in the parish confines of St.Stephen's, and perhaps sometime, I'll go to the Latin Mass. what is ironic, is that this EC knows more Church Latin than most Latins my age and younger. in 1982, the priest at Sts. Peter and Paul decided that he would toss in some Latin (and Greek) at Midnight Mass (Christmas). most of the Latins had blank looks on their faces, I, for my part, got over my surprise by the second beat, and followed along with the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Pater Noster. I guess I have a gift for languages, thus picking up Latin as I read and (somewhat) speak Spanish. I used to attend Mass at Christ Episcopal, and they used to have Evensong. One time, it was a Latin Mass (with Episcopal rubrics). The priest knew that I had a working knowledge of Church Latin, and followed me by half a beat, the rest of the congregation behind him by half a beat, he never took his eyes off of me until he did the Consecration with his back to the congregation. think of the possibilities if I created my own rubrics.mmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Much Love,
Jonn

To quote the greatest Latin Catholic of them all, Rocky Balboa:

Aabsuloottlee.

Gordo

When i converted from Lutheran to RC I had already a lot of contact to the East namely some Russian and Greek orthodox parishes in Europe. When I discovered shortly after that there is a byzantine rite in the RC I changed rite w/o any hesitation. The eastern spirtualitiy is my home and I feel lost in any kind of Latin rite (Tridentine or Novus Ordo doesn't matter). I am meanwhile at the point that if I would be in the situation to have to choose between attending Divine Liturgy in an orthodox parish or mass at RC I know that I would go with the Divine Liturgy, although I know that I couldn't go to communion.
Maybe that is one of the reasons that I am hurt everytime if there is a mix and match situation in spiritualtity (keyword "Latinizations"). In my eyes it is about spirituality and a mix and match in the official public serice of the church doesn't do them just in my eyes. What someone does in his own private prayer is not mine to judge - it is not my business at all.

I wanted to answer for a while, but I've hadn't the time to put my thoughts down. However, I will do so now, as a Roman who is moving more and more to the East.

The short and simple answer to your question is "yes".

The thing that attracts me to the Byzantine Rite is the spirituality and the whole way things are done. The Byzantine Church has taken its own liturgical (musical, iconographic, etc.) and spiritual way which I am attracted to and which is different in form (if not ultimate purpose) to the Latin Church. I simply feel more drawn to this Rite over the Roman Rite, under any circumstances.

I have mentioned elsewhere that I prefer the Pauline Missal - in a way similar to that used either at Pope Benedict's innaugural Mass or to EWTN - over the Pian missal under any circumstances (and as a former "trad", I have seem many different local usages). I was going to explain why, but I went down a long, rambling and unsolicited rabbit hole and so I will not post on this now.

There are plenty of good parishes in my local diocese who would welcome my volunteer efforts to, say, help restore Gregorian chant to regular liturgical use. I only have one voice and limited time. I must choose one Rite over the other, and my choice will probably be Byzantine.

Marc

Yes! A million times, Yes!

I didn't "head East" out of a dislike for the Novus Ordo. I could have found a TLM parish for that.

I have friends who are self-described Traditionalist who do attend a Ruthenian parish because the TLM that they prefer to attend is too far away for regular attendance. The invited us to the Ruthenian parish and we accepted out of a curiosity about the Eastern Rites.

We were converts who knew very little about the Eastern Catholic Churches (though we were somewhat familiar with the Greek Orthodox).

So out of a desire to learn more about the Catholic Church we attended a Divine Liturgy.

And we haven't looked backward since.

The Latin Mass is lovely and solemn.

But the Divine Liturgy is transcendently beautiful and fills our souls in a way that no form of worship in the Roman Church has.

Had we known about the Eastern Catholic Churches at the time of our conversion we would not have chosen the Roman Rite.

So yes - Even if the Traditional Latin Mass were the normative Liturgy and it was celebrated with all due reverence and solemnity I would still be heading East with my family!

We have found the food that nourishes our spirits ... we could go no where else.

With me it was a bit of an ironic return. My descendants on my mother's side were from the Austo-Hungarian Empire who, like many first-wave Greek Catholics, became Latins after emigrating into a rural area and finding nothing except RC parishes. Four generations later, I went back as a teenager.

I've spent time with the TLM movement and even taught at a school established by Msgr. Lefebvre for a while even though I was an Eastern Christian. I completely support the TLM movement and knew most of the players in the 1988 negotations which established the Fraternity of St. Peter. I have sung and continue to sing in TLM Latin scholas when I have the chance. But my gaze was and is always towards the Orientale Lumen.

Sort of the reverse of LatByzEastNovice, I will always look at things with an Eastern Christian perspective. I had the opportunity in my Christian Brothers high school many years ago to have a brother for one of my religion classes who was from one of those grand old neighborhoods in Cleveland where there were RC, EC, and Orthodox parishes all a couple of blocks apart.

He told me things from his experience that were very helpful, and he could see immediately that I had a much more Eastern than Western Christian viewpoint which I hadn't really recognized until that point.

I brought my traditionalist friend to his first Divine Liturgy last night... he found it to be very interesting and mentioned that it had many similarities to the Tridentine, but many differences as well. (We went on Saturday night, and there was no chanting or incense, sort of a "Low" Divine Liturgy, so I told him to attend some Sunday at 10 AM to really experience it.)

He noted a few things; one that I pointed out that he agreed with was the explicit mentioning of Jesus as God as opposed to Son of God or Lord even though both euphemistacally mean Jesus is Divine.. Also, the mentioning Our Lady and the prayers for the hierarchy (especially the Holy Father)... even in the Tridentine Mass, the Blessed Virgin is only mentioned maybe four times, and only twice in the Novus Ordo, and the Holy Father is only prayed for once.

This made me really think about why I love the East, and I guess it's because it's the only Liturgy that I think empasizes the Sacramental/Mysterious aspect of the Holy Eucharist as paramount. The Tridentine is very much an emphasis on remembering the Holy Sacrifice on Calvary. It's very Good Friday focused. The Novus Ordo is very much an emphasis on the communion meal of the believers and how that unites us. It's very Holy Thursday focused. The Divine Liturgy seems to me to be the most Easter SUnday focused, especially in the light of Theosis. The Sacramental aspect exists in the Tridentine and Novus Ordo of course, but it's never given pride of place, which makes sense in the Latin mind of emphasizing the Sacred Humanity of Our Lord. The Sacrificial and Meal aspects, although having a decided component of Divinity are more of an embrace of Christ's Sacred Humanity, while the Sacramental/Mystery approach is very much an emphasis of the Divinity of Christ. That's kind of a genesis of why we have Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, and why it is so solemn; it's the most "theophanous" ritual in the Latin West.

Yes!

I felt called to the East. I "discerned" my call. I believe it to be true and I can't see myself ever going back.

Dear Friends,

I don't think I've ever been so inspired as when I've these posts here!

Even when you only said "yes . . ."

Alex

First off, if the Tridentine Mass was completely restored in the Latin Rite I'd get drunk for a week (ONLY JOKING) Seriously though, I'd continue to do exactly as I've been doing by attending at least one Divine Liturgy a week, while attending the Latin Mass the rest of the time. I like having the best of both worlds, and just because I can feel like I'm getting a sneak peek at Heaven when I make it to DL at Sts Volodymyr and Olha, doesn't mean I have to give up the Sacred Heart or Stations of the Cross. Likewise, no EC should ever feel a twinge of disloyalty toward there rite if they've ever imagined they were levitating at a Latin High Mass on a Holy Day.

Dear Lawrence,

What are you talking about, Big Guy?

Those devotions ARE an integral part of the UGCC's spiritual life!

In our church, you DO have the best of both worlds!

Alex

Man, Lawrence, you saved me on that. I was going to write "if the Tridentine mass were restored, I'd get sober for a week (Only Joking)!

Sorry, my humor is off kilter today. I'm getting ready for about 3 months of (weekend) touring with my Irish pub band -- that's roughly 100 hours in Irish pubs, getting FREE BEER!

Please keep me in your prayers. The fun part is trying to find Divine Liturgy in every little pocket of the East Coast.

You'll be hearing the Kesh Jig, the Star of Munster in your sleep... just don't tell me you guys do the Unicorn... But hopefully some Christy Moore songs.

Diak, veteran of several Celtic bands over the years...been there, done that, still doing that.

We write a lot of songs and we're big on humor and audience participation. We've always done the Unicorn, but not because we like it, but because me make all the girls come up and dance. We've got a few songs that achieve this same end (girls dancing with us).

We've even got a wheel of fortune to spin and the biggest wedge is Unicorn Song (bigger than drinking song, war song, free beer... you get the picture), and the really bad joke is we'll play it each time it comes up. Pain can be very funny! Of course, we change the Unicorn around after awhile, so if I tough-looking guy spins it, we'll do a "hard-core" unicorn, etc.

Good times, good times!

And don't forget Waxie's Dargle, The Bottle of Smoke, and The Boys From The County Hell". Hey, I thought this was a thread about Latins going East ?

Alex,

I would have to say I am really not sure whether I am more Byzantine or Latin. By baptism and confirmation I am a Roman-Rite Latin, but much of my spirituality is Eastern. My experience with the Indult Mass is minimal but I did not feel at all as if anyone was breathing in the chapel besides the priest and a few others: the rest were completely silent the whole liturgy. IMHO, I did not find it all that mystical at that chapel I have been to, and I find the priest to be a great and prayerful Benedictine man. Perhaps if I was at a High Mass and saw the Indult Mass at its finest I could give a better response, but I was born at a time when the Novus Ordo was the Sunday norm.

That being said, I happily carry my chotki around; my apartment has almost no Latin statues or pictures but numerous icons; my confirmation saint is the greatest of the Alexandrian Patriarchs except Athanasius and Mark; Crossing in the Greek manner just feels right; I could go on. But I can also say I am deeply attached to certain things in the West.

The reader at the Byzantine church I often go to, a former Latin, once told me that I am probably just visiting and will remain in the Latin Church. Somehow I often feel this to be the case. If this be true, I can atleast say that I know how to use my other lung and don't impress my Latin tendencies on the Byzantines!

Cyril,in the West but faces East.

Dear Cyril,

That is perfectly fine!

I have my Latin, Coptic/Ethiopian, Byzantine, Celtic, Old Believer and some other devotions.

When I'm in my "Byzantine mode" I'm mostly Old Believer these days! (That's Diak's influence!).

Two fingers up for you, Big Guy!

Alex

My poor wee(a Anhelynaism) memory finally remembered this article that I found helpful and should be of some interest to all, but aimed at my Latin brethern;

Eastern Presuppositions & Western Liturgical Renewal, by Fr. Robert Taft SJ

http://www.praiseofglory.com/taftliturgy.htm

Good & charitable criticism is always welcomed !

james

OOOOOOOOOH - fame [ or notoriety ] at last

Dear Anhelyna,

Before you go taking all the credit, remember that it was I who gave you a Slavic-sounding name!

Alex

Oh indeed - and as you well know I love using it

What a wonderful article! Thank you, Jakub!

Peace,
Alex NvV

Wow...I've been unable to get to the forum for a while and when I finally do get here, I find this great thread...

Latin born and bred, I get so tired of people(or I should say, my Roman family and friends) assuming that I went East because of the Novus Ordo. Fact is, child of a Jewish mother and Sicilian father, I never did fit in well with the scholasticism of the West. There was always a part of me that just didn't 'get it'. The fights started from when I was six years old and just starting Catholic school, pre-VCII btw.

Anyway..I just wanted to say 'ditto' to what others have posted here and thank Dr. Roman for starting such a great thread.

Vie

I attended 1 indult TLM and was not very thrilled. It was with my Confirmation class in high school. We felt so unwelcome. The people really gave off this radiance of being better than us and so stuck on the letter of the law that they had no understanding for the *spirit* While it might have been glorious in its day, my impression of it in our day is not very high. The TLM has absolutely nothing to do with my looking into Byz. Catholicism.

I have always been a bit of an outsider in the Latin Rite regarding certain teachings and understandings. My husband and I were surprised that Orthodoxy had the same understandings as us. We didn't look into it very long, though. We simply will not leave the Catholic Church. So when we found out that Eastern Catholics exist ( ), we started looking into it. So here I am today. One has nothing to do with the other.

Vie, there were many Italo-Greeks in Calabria, Sicily, on many of the other islands, Corsica, etc. who are descended from Greek Catholics. It's probably in your blood, actually...

Yea, put there by my dad who, though Roman all his life, had a lot of ways of doing things that seem more Eastern now that I know the difference. Looking back now, I can see how much that my dad did and believed was more rooted in the East than the West, and as for my mom, who probably would have ended up a Rabbi if such things were allowed when she was a kid, she can still argue Torah with the best of them.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/

I am inclined to also say that we can be called to a particular ecclisiastical, liturgical and spiritual expression.

I began moving east when I discerned a call to the monastic life through Carmel and explored the root of that call, and discovered that I was liturgically at home anywhere Catholic, but since one must commit at some point, I committed to an eastern Catholic jurisdiction and spiritual father, for it was laid upon my like a burden on my heart.

Turn back from the plow? I hear it is a dangerous move...

Blessings....Mary

Dear Eliza-Mary,

Are you still involved with Carmel?

The icon in my avatar is the original Our Lady of Mt Carmel!

Alex

Dear Alex,

I am clothed as a secular Carmelite but not actively in any community at the moment though I maintain formation studies with a Carmelite hermit. I am discerning a call to the religious life in the form of the life of a consecrated hermit. If the Byzantine Metropolitan, and my bishop, accepts my vows as a consecrated hermit, then I will ask for an affiliation with the Order of Carmelites Discalced as well.

Blessings....Mary

Dear Mary,

Excellent!

My UGCC parish has an anchorite - a former RC nun who joined our church and did her formation as an anchorite. I was present at her dedication, a most beautiful service!

Carmel has always had a hold on me and I think there are many points of contact with the Byzantine East, i.e. the scapular and the veneration for the Veil of Protection of our Lady, the Byzantine well-springs of ancient Carmel (there was a scholarly article posted here about that some time ago, reviewing the Rule of St Albert).

Alex

Was that an article written by a Carmelite historian?

It is indeed interesting that St. Albert did not turn to any of the other great rules in use but chose to write a very simple rule for very simple, very European old soldiers living on Mt. Carmel.

Mary

Dear Mary in Carmel,

Yes, it was a Carmelite historian - it is posted somewhere here but I'll need to do some digging, unless someone else has it handy.

He even said the rule of substituting the Office with Our Father's comes from the East as well.

I think it was "elexie" who first posted it.

You refer to the "old soldiers" living on Carmel.

Would these be Templar Knights? If so, would they be the ones defeated at Akkar? They also used a rule of Our Father's similar to the one St Albert describes in his Rule.

Alex

Which east? Alexandria or Antioch?

All of the old monastic rules had abbreviated prayer disciplines for the busy and the infirm that used the Our Father. It is the prayer the Lord taught us after all, and as I noted the divide between east and west was never so immense as we'd like to "envision" it today. There was more of a gulf between Alexander and Antioch than there was between Rome and Constantinople...then, and now.

Blessings....Mary

Dear Mary,

I believe the author referred to the Thebaid. The Churches of Constantinople also had a rule of Our Father's, up to 150, to substitute for the Psalter. St Seraphim of Sarov likewise taught that the Rule of the Theotokos or the Rosary came from the Thebaid, having been revealed to a monk there.

And I never mentioned anything about a divide between East and West here.

You are more than correct about the differences between Alexandria and Antioch being greater than those between the "two Romes" prior to 1054.

In fact, as you doubtless know, when the Oriental Orthodox refer to the "Roman West" they are, at once, referring to BOTH the Latin and Byzantine Churches.

Alex

Dear Friends,

A further question to those Latin Catholics who have gone East.

Is it a "total experience" for you, I mean, do you embrace the East with its theology and spirituality as well?

And is that experience SOMETHING like a "new conversion" for you?

Do you feel you are leaving something behind?

Alex

Alex,

Interesting question. For me, yes, I've been reading a lot about spirituality and theology and I talk to my parish priest a lot. I'm now teaching ECF and bringing my background as a well-trained Latin together with my new Eastern knowledge and my ability to find/learn new information quickly. Having to teach ECF is forcing me to learn quickly, and I'm grateful for this.

Is it something of a conversion? Well, it feels more like a homecoming to me, but I also feel like an intruder -- my Orthodox friends I think see me differently now (why didn't I go Carpatho-Russian Orthodox?). I've dealt with being an outsider by becoming an insider, by volunteering and going to as many parish functions as I can. I don't believe that one just "belongs" to a parish; one must really devote his or her self to the parish.

Do I feel I'm leaving anything behind? No, not at all.
OK, maybe there's a LOT more single Latin women than Byzantine women (I haven't met ANY single Byzantine women over 20), and I'm single and starting to get some kind of "settle-down" bug, which I don't rightly understand

Do you remember if the reference to Thebaid was to Pachomius or Anthony? I wish we could find that article...well...I wish you could find that article.

And to the last...yes.

Seraphim of Sarov has a particular place in my spiritual life and I am blessed with the friendship of a monk who is in a direct line of his patrimony through John Maximovich.

Thebaid...

How did you ever manage to get a phid in sociology of all things!!

Mary

Dear Mary,

Sh-h-h! That phid in soc. is not exactly my finest hour!

But I did include a discussion in the body of my dissertation on the three-bar Eastern Cross!

(two profs I had actually returned to the faith of their fathers after the experience of working with me - usually I turn people off religion . . . )

St Seraphim, as you know, prayed the rosary daily and his children all prayed it, including his great devotee, St Seraphim Zvezdinsky, shot by the bolsheviks in 1937.

I'll look for that article!

Alex

Hehehehe

Just found this thread again and can now reply to it [ was unable to do so before]

I'm home at last and this is where I WILL stay

Anhelyna

Dear Anhelyna:

To balm our bruised Latin egos, I would like to think, and may I just say, that you have been always home, even before your legendary journey!

You just transferred to another (bed)room with a beautiful window, opening Eastward!

Amado

Good response Amado

I'm so happy,friend, that you've found the room in this part of the Father's house which He has led you to make your own, Angela!

Many years! Many Years! Many happy blessed Years, dear sister in Faith.

Steve