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Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12848 11/26/03 09:39 AM
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AntonI Offline
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I did make my promise not to take part in any Ukraninian discussion because they happen to be extremely nationalistic but I will break it off this once. "Patriarch" Filaret is not a cleric; he is simply a layman who has been excommunicated by Moscow. That is well known and accepted by the whole of the Orthodox Church. A few months ago, one of his "bishops" tricked his way into meeting with the Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africe who promptly told him he would have nothing to do with him and urged him to return to Metropolitan Vladimir. And by all accounts from my great-uncle, +Vladimir is a most pious and holy man who is the most worthy to lead the Ukranians, both in autonomy and eventual autocephalousy.

So enough with the open-season on the ROC and +Alexis...the late +Antony was vehemently against Filaret and his ilk and wasn't very keen on Rome either...will you end up calling him names as well?

Anton

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12849 11/26/03 10:43 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by OrthoMan:

And, according to you his Ukrainian blood absolves him of all past sins while Alexi's Russian blood doesn't.
Patriarch Alexy doesn't have a Russian blood line, he's an Estonian of German decent...

Christian

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12850 11/26/03 11:50 AM
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All I know is that the Orthodox Church Kyivan Patriarchate is growing and the MPs are losing ground. This is a fact, this is not fiction. The KPs are today larger than many "cannonical" Patriarchal churches that exist today around the globe. I believe that things will change with the next presidential elections in Ukraine. Am I talking about politics? Of course I am. Does this make a difference? Of course it does. The UOC-MP is backed by the old communists who are pro-Russian, this is another fact and I guess this is because they speak the same language, if you know what I mean and this again is politics.
For millions of Ukrainians, not thousands or hundreds of thousands but millions Patriarch Alexis is the head of the Russian Orthodox Church and nothing more. If he wants to have Russian parishes in Ukraine that's ok, but they should be Russian churches. Let's take a look at another issue: The bishops of the UOC-MP have no Ukrainian parishes to visit in the diaspora. I wonder why, if this is the case are they really Ukrainian? Can they be considered as so? I honestly don't think so.
Lauro

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12851 11/26/03 01:03 PM
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Dear Bob,

Yes, no one can deny that the canonical issue needs to be resolved in this matter and I believe it will be.

Ukraine has always been between East and West, crushed and then seeking, by various means, to try and resurrect and protect itself.

This will take time as people in Eastern Europe are still shaking the cobwebs from their minds in the wake of the fall of the communist Russian empire.

The now canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in the diaspora are also striving to establish a canonical and autocephalous Orthodox Patriarchate in Ukraine.

It will happen.

Alex

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12852 11/26/03 04:17 PM
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Halychanyn Offline
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Dear All:

How is it that what started as a positive thread about the moving of the seat of the (soon to be remaned) UGCC to Kyiv has turned into a re-hash of the cannonical status of the "other" Ukrainian churches?

Sheesh!

Yours,

hal

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12853 11/26/03 04:41 PM
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Dear Hal,

Welcome to the Byzantine Forum!! smile

Alex

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12854 11/26/03 04:42 PM
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Anthony Offline
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One word: OrthoMan

Quote
Originally posted by Halychanyn:
Dear All:

How is it that what started as a positive thread about the moving of the seat of the (soon to be remaned) UGCC to Kyiv has turned into a re-hash of the cannonical status of the "other" Ukrainian churches?

Sheesh!

Yours,

hal

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12855 11/26/03 07:41 PM
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Dear Friends,

The problem is that if Ukrainian Orthodox would wait for Moscow to voluntarily approve of a Patriarchate for Kyiv, they would be waiting a long time.

How is what the Ukrainian Orthodox did with the KP generally different from the way in which other Orthodox Patriarchates have been established in history?

I mean the Serbian, Russian and others?

They declared a patriarchate for themselves and then waited sometimes for centuries before world Orthodoxy recognized it.

And, in all cases I believe, such a declaration meant independence/autocephaly from Constantinople etc.

When the Eritrean Church separated from the Ethiopian Church, the Coptic Pope could have argued with them or got involved in jurisdictional polemics.

Instead, he consecrated a Patriarch for the Eritrean Church and ended any problems before they developed.

What is happening to the Ukrainian Orthodox in Ukraine by world Orthodoxy is something that has repeated itself before - Ukrainian Orthodoxy being bullied by Moscow with the rest of the smaller Hellenic Orthodox churches looking on in silence or with tacit approval.

But hopefully this will be resolved in future.

Alex

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12856 11/26/03 07:45 PM
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If Ukrainians want their own Patriarchate maybe they should turn to Moscow, who has experience in this matter.

So what is the going price for a Patriarchate these days? A few Dachas in Crimea? Shares in business interests? Positions in government? Or will 30 pieces of silver suffice?

Shall we take up a collection?

Andrij

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12857 11/26/03 08:16 PM
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Moscow will never recognize a Ukrainian Patriarchate, because they need Kyiv to maintain their own. Even if world Orthoxy does recognize a Ukrainian Patriarchate and pressures Moscow to accept the facts, I doubt very much that Moscow ever will.
Lauro

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12858 11/26/03 11:28 PM
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I recall that in Bulgaria during the IX century, there was a struggle for autocephaly and independence, very similar to what is happening in Ukraine. At that time the "Ottoman" Patriarchate was not willing to give any concession to the Bulgarian Church, so they tried everything to become autocephalous, and as Rome was willing to provide them an independent Church, the Bulgarian Catholic Exachate emerged with popular support.

But when the Russians showed interest in supporting a Bulgarian Autocephalous Church and when finaly the EP formed a separate Exarchate, the majority of the people returned to the Orthodox Church and the Greek-Catholic Church became an insignifican minority again.

So, if Orthodoxy is thereatened by a new Catholic Patriachate in Kyiv, it's because of Moscow's reluctancy to accept an autocephalous Orthodox Church in the Ukraine, and the EP's lack of moral courage to say no to Moscow, and solve the current schisms among the Ukrainian Orthodox.

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12859 11/27/03 12:41 AM
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Hold it! Hold it!

I don't check on you guys for a couple of days and you sneak a Major See from Lviv to Kyiv?

What's going on?

Has this been confirmed?

If so, sounds great! Let's see how the Moscovites react!

Many years to Patriarch Lubomyr!

Shalom,
Memo.

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12860 11/27/03 02:23 AM
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Dear Memo:

There's nothing sneaky about it. They've been bulding a church and a residence and an administrative center in Kyiv for some time now.

As for confirmation, I'm not sure what you mean. Confirmed as in "it's going to happen" or confirmed in the sence that Rome thinks it can stop it isf they withold permission.

Yours,

hal

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12861 11/27/03 02:29 AM
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FAW Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by KO63AP:
So what is the going price for a Patriarchate these days? A few Dachas in Crimea? Shares in business interests? Positions in government? Or will 30 pieces of silver suffice?

Shall we take up a collection?

Andrij
Perhaps Ukraine could buy back the Metropolitan See from Moscow for the same price Moscow bought it from Constantinople . . .

300 sables of gold!

:p

Re: Move to Kyev Announced? #12862 11/27/03 02:50 AM
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Irish Melkite Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by Mexican:
I recall that in Bulgaria during the IX century, there was a struggle for autocephaly and independence, very similar to what is happening in Ukraine. At that time the "Ottoman" Patriarchate was not willing to give any concession to the Bulgarian Church, so they tried everything to become autocephalous, and as Rome was willing to provide them an independent Church, the Bulgarian Catholic Exachate emerged with popular support.

But when the Russians showed interest in supporting a Bulgarian Autocephalous Church and when finaly the EP formed a separate Exarchate, the majority of the people returned to the Orthodox Church and the Greek-Catholic Church became an insignifican minority again.
Absolutely correct Mexican (except you mistyped the century - was the XIXth). Of the estimated 60,000 who entered into communion with Rome, more than 75% returned to Orthodoxy once the Orthodox established a jurisdiction for them. Doing so was seen as responsive to nationalistic demands, thereby trumping the short-lived advantage gained by the Catholics. And it was 50 yrs+ before the number of Byzantine Catholic Bulgarians was again sufficient to merit re-establishment of the Exarchial See.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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