I never got my chance to insult someone, just kidding.

Alex,

In a post on pg. 7 in the other thread you said:

"The Catholic Church does not teach that other faiths cannot save or that millions of millions of people who are not Christians around the world are going to hell."

Certainly you are correct when it comes to modern Latin teaching. In fact, Vatican II holds Islam and Hinduism with "high esteem".

Obvoiusly Jesus felt different about all these other faiths, after all, He did come in the flesh and it was not to place Faith in Him on a relative level with the faith of men and demons.

The Orthodox position however is the same as that of the Church in all centuries past. Salvation can only be found within the Church. If one doubts this, then I suggest they start reading the Holy Fathers and reestablish contact with the fundamental teaching of the Church from all centuries past.

This is yet another way in which true Christianity and Latinism are different.

This of course is not to say that we condemn all others, we do not judge them, but they are certainly in a grave situation.. All we can do is pray for them.

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

OrthodoxyorDeath,

The Latin Church position as to the salvation of good Hidues, Muslims, Buddhist, and so on is in total keeping with the tradition of the early Church. The Church has always understood salvation possible for all men of truely good will and virtue. And dare I say that you assume to understand totaly the nature and purpose of purgatory? Perhaps you will enter purgatory for what ever seemingly long strecth of time might feel as years? And Perhaps Gandhi might have entered puragtory and left in what might have seemed a matter of minutes? Or do you take away Christs ability to do as He wills? For instance, to ask Gandhi in purgatory: Do you accept Me? And then allow a faithful Gandhi into heaven with Him as he accepts Christ - who in many ways he had served.

A Church Father is St. Paul also, and he returned a run-away slave to it's slave master. Paul... perhaps the Church first theologian and a pillar of Christian Scripture. So now because Paul thought slavery Christian, does that mean the Church *Tradition* taught that slavery was a necassery part of Christian culture? Furthure more the Church supports orginized labor and peaceful protest - in some ways the disobiedence of a slave hand.

Dear Maximus,

You have spoken well . . .

Alex

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

"True Christianity and Latinism . . ."

On this Forum, the Particular Latin Church is part of True Christianity.

Where can I mark your first insult here?

No one is asking you to give up what you believe, but does Orthodoxy also teach that one cannot be diplomatic in speaking with other Christians?

And, if not, doesn't Orthodox teach one to keep contacts with heretics and schismatics to a minimum?

Aren't you afraid you might get infected with either?

Just some thoughts.

Alex

Maximus,

The early Church taught salvation was possible through pagan faiths? I would ask that if you wish to teach such a distortion that you show some evidence. And for each piece of evidence (if you can find even one), I will show ten or twenty to counter it.

This modern Latin teaching is indeed a chasm between it and Orthodoxy. So if anyone still thinks that the Latins and Orthodox already have unity in faith, let this be an awakening.

Never, has the Church in all years past considered a pagan religion containing anything good. Christ did not teach that salvation would come through “virtue” and “good will”. This new-age teaching is just another preparation for the coming Antichrist because he will make the desired union of the sentimentalists a reality. Before his throne people of all the religions and spiritual curiosities will bow to worship as brothers. He will unite all the nations of the earth under his scepter because “power has been given to him over every race and people and tongue and nation. And all who dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:7-8).

For worldly people, that preview of a universal state and universal religion is something very pleasant. It is the same today with those who desire the union of churches and do not care about the truth. For them, dogmatical subjects are futile nonsense. But “for this cause, God shall send them a working of delusion that they should believe a lie, so that they all may be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness”.

In that society of the Antichrist, the few who will remain genuine Orthodox Christians will be a rock of scandal, the only dissonance in all that diabolical harmony.

Purgatory? Let's just save that one for another day.

Orthodox Catholic,

I am not trying to insult anyone, I used those words to make clear that I draw a distinction between both, that is what I believe. I feel to blur the edges of the two for the sake of diplomacy is somewhat untruthful, to both you and me.

Is anyone else having problems posting messages? Typing a post in the box has become very interesting, there are words literally appearing in the box that make no sense….

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath

How strange you should be having problems typing up your messages ! Perhaps the Beings that look after us all are indicating something to you.

I have no problems but of course, I am only a Latin Catholic, a guest on this site and I hope I always behave as a guest should.

May Our Blessed Lady , the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of us all and my Mistress keep us all in Her care, and lead us to Her Most Wonderful Son

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Look out, Friend, I think you have Angela on your trail . . .

The Particular Latin Church has never said, absolutely, that pagan faiths can save.

This is something that is up to God, not us.

There are millions of people of pagan faiths who do not know Christ through no fault of their own.

To say they are all going to hell is something that I, for one, cannot admit as it would contradict the actions of a Merciful God.

The Church Fathers of the East, however, did have a qualitatively different approach to paganism than the New Testament.

This was because a number of them came from families where there were pagans and from pagan societies, studying pagan philosophers etc.

The Fathers tended to see the pagan gods as personifications of virtues that people worshipped so as to imitate them etc.

In addition, Orthodox Churches in Roumania and elsewhere DO include iconographic representations of pagan philosophers such as Socrates, Plato and Aristotle on their church walls, such as in the rotunda churches.

These are without haloes, and they are depicted beneath the Old Testament prophets.

Somehow they too have a purpose in God's plan of salvation for the world.

But if you don't believe me (the thought had crossed my mind), there is the iconographic evidence in Orthodoxy. Make of it what you will.

Alex

Our Lady,

Finny you should mention, I was thinking the same thing, that the Demons, who look after us all, were trying to stop me...

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Maximus, on another thread, says you are Coptic. Are you?

Alex

Alex,

There are many Orthodox who believe, as I, that many of the early pagan faiths were a preparation and a result of the inner search built into each of us.

That is not to say any of these faiths saves.

And I have said, that the Church does not condemn them, they are in Gods hands and that's it.

“Nobody reaches the Father except through the Son.” – that's from the NT 

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Well, if that's what you believe, the only thing I can is - I agree . . .

You are a good diplomat, Friend, to be sure, and a great debater!

Alex

Coptic? I don't know where that came from. I'm in the Kallinikos Synod of the GOC of Greece.

Alex,

I'm not trying to be a “Mr. Knowitall” but I do see that in many ways the train has derailed and pray that with a few words I may awaken someone. People may not agree with me as I don't agree with them many times. But that inner sense God gave us along with the Holy Spirit will lead each of us to the truth, if allowed.

Believe me, I find no pleasure in this.

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Knowing that you follow the Old Calendar, Friend, as I do, endears you to me even more . . .

I agree and I love reading your particular perspective on things, which is both spiritual and intellectually informed.

Alex