I never got my chance to insult someone, just kidding.

Alex,

In a post on pg. 7 in the other thread you said:

"The Catholic Church does not teach that other faiths cannot save or that millions of millions of people who are not Christians around the world are going to hell."

Certainly you are correct when it comes to modern Latin teaching. In fact, Vatican II holds Islam and Hinduism with "high esteem".

Obvoiusly Jesus felt different about all these other faiths, after all, He did come in the flesh and it was not to place Faith in Him on a relative level with the faith of men and demons.

The Orthodox position however is the same as that of the Church in all centuries past. Salvation can only be found within the Church. If one doubts this, then I suggest they start reading the Holy Fathers and reestablish contact with the fundamental teaching of the Church from all centuries past.

This is yet another way in which true Christianity and Latinism are different.

This of course is not to say that we condemn all others, we do not judge them, but they are certainly in a grave situation.. All we can do is pray for them.

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

OrthodoxyorDeath,

The Latin Church position as to the salvation of good Hidues, Muslims, Buddhist, and so on is in total keeping with the tradition of the early Church. The Church has always understood salvation possible for all men of truely good will and virtue. And dare I say that you assume to understand totaly the nature and purpose of purgatory? Perhaps you will enter purgatory for what ever seemingly long strecth of time might feel as years? And Perhaps Gandhi might have entered puragtory and left in what might have seemed a matter of minutes? Or do you take away Christs ability to do as He wills? For instance, to ask Gandhi in purgatory: Do you accept Me? And then allow a faithful Gandhi into heaven with Him as he accepts Christ - who in many ways he had served.

A Church Father is St. Paul also, and he returned a run-away slave to it's slave master. Paul... perhaps the Church first theologian and a pillar of Christian Scripture. So now because Paul thought slavery Christian, does that mean the Church *Tradition* taught that slavery was a necassery part of Christian culture? Furthure more the Church supports orginized labor and peaceful protest - in some ways the disobiedence of a slave hand.

Dear Maximus,

You have spoken well . . .

Alex

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

"True Christianity and Latinism . . ."

On this Forum, the Particular Latin Church is part of True Christianity.

Where can I mark your first insult here?

No one is asking you to give up what you believe, but does Orthodoxy also teach that one cannot be diplomatic in speaking with other Christians?

And, if not, doesn't Orthodox teach one to keep contacts with heretics and schismatics to a minimum?

Aren't you afraid you might get infected with either?

Just some thoughts.

Alex

Maximus,

The early Church taught salvation was possible through pagan faiths? I would ask that if you wish to teach such a distortion that you show some evidence. And for each piece of evidence (if you can find even one), I will show ten or twenty to counter it.

This modern Latin teaching is indeed a chasm between it and Orthodoxy. So if anyone still thinks that the Latins and Orthodox already have unity in faith, let this be an awakening.

Never, has the Church in all years past considered a pagan religion containing anything good. Christ did not teach that salvation would come through “virtue” and “good will”. This new-age teaching is just another preparation for the coming Antichrist because he will make the desired union of the sentimentalists a reality. Before his throne people of all the religions and spiritual curiosities will bow to worship as brothers. He will unite all the nations of the earth under his scepter because “power has been given to him over every race and people and tongue and nation. And all who dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:7-8).

For worldly people, that preview of a universal state and universal religion is something very pleasant. It is the same today with those who desire the union of churches and do not care about the truth. For them, dogmatical subjects are futile nonsense. But “for this cause, God shall send them a working of delusion that they should believe a lie, so that they all may be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness”.

In that society of the Antichrist, the few who will remain genuine Orthodox Christians will be a rock of scandal, the only dissonance in all that diabolical harmony.

Purgatory? Let's just save that one for another day.

Orthodox Catholic,

I am not trying to insult anyone, I used those words to make clear that I draw a distinction between both, that is what I believe. I feel to blur the edges of the two for the sake of diplomacy is somewhat untruthful, to both you and me.

Is anyone else having problems posting messages? Typing a post in the box has become very interesting, there are words literally appearing in the box that make no sense….

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath

How strange you should be having problems typing up your messages ! Perhaps the Beings that look after us all are indicating something to you.

I have no problems but of course, I am only a Latin Catholic, a guest on this site and I hope I always behave as a guest should.

May Our Blessed Lady , the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of us all and my Mistress keep us all in Her care, and lead us to Her Most Wonderful Son

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Look out, Friend, I think you have Angela on your trail . . .

The Particular Latin Church has never said, absolutely, that pagan faiths can save.

This is something that is up to God, not us.

There are millions of people of pagan faiths who do not know Christ through no fault of their own.

To say they are all going to hell is something that I, for one, cannot admit as it would contradict the actions of a Merciful God.

The Church Fathers of the East, however, did have a qualitatively different approach to paganism than the New Testament.

This was because a number of them came from families where there were pagans and from pagan societies, studying pagan philosophers etc.

The Fathers tended to see the pagan gods as personifications of virtues that people worshipped so as to imitate them etc.

In addition, Orthodox Churches in Roumania and elsewhere DO include iconographic representations of pagan philosophers such as Socrates, Plato and Aristotle on their church walls, such as in the rotunda churches.

These are without haloes, and they are depicted beneath the Old Testament prophets.

Somehow they too have a purpose in God's plan of salvation for the world.

But if you don't believe me (the thought had crossed my mind), there is the iconographic evidence in Orthodoxy. Make of it what you will.

Alex

Our Lady,

Finny you should mention, I was thinking the same thing, that the Demons, who look after us all, were trying to stop me...

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Maximus, on another thread, says you are Coptic. Are you?

Alex

Alex,

There are many Orthodox who believe, as I, that many of the early pagan faiths were a preparation and a result of the inner search built into each of us.

That is not to say any of these faiths saves.

And I have said, that the Church does not condemn them, they are in Gods hands and that's it.

“Nobody reaches the Father except through the Son.” – that's from the NT 

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Well, if that's what you believe, the only thing I can is - I agree . . .

You are a good diplomat, Friend, to be sure, and a great debater!

Alex

Coptic? I don't know where that came from. I'm in the Kallinikos Synod of the GOC of Greece.

Alex,

I'm not trying to be a “Mr. Knowitall” but I do see that in many ways the train has derailed and pray that with a few words I may awaken someone. People may not agree with me as I don't agree with them many times. But that inner sense God gave us along with the Holy Spirit will lead each of us to the truth, if allowed.

Believe me, I find no pleasure in this.

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Knowing that you follow the Old Calendar, Friend, as I do, endears you to me even more . . .

I agree and I love reading your particular perspective on things, which is both spiritual and intellectually informed.

Alex

Alex,

And you are a subject of jealosy for me because you took my registration name.

OrthodoxyorDeath,
I know my"handle" is a little on the long side but I chose it as I am Her slave of love. May I ask you, in all humilty, to address me as Angela [ and I have heard all the jokes that can be made about that name ] or shorten my Handle to "the slave of love" as I am only too well aware that I need Her help to lead me to Her Son

May Our Blessed Lady, Mother of us all, my Mistress keep us in Her care and lead us to Her Most Wonderful Son

Angela

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Maximus,
I would like to comment on what you said:

"The Latin Church position as to the salvation of good Hidues, Muslims, Buddhist, and so on is in total keeping with the tradition of the early Church. The Church has always understood salvation possible for all men of truely good will and virtue."

You my friend are no different that Alex when it comes to relativism. Tell us what is keeping in Tradition or traditon of the early Church in regards to non-Christians?
Salvation as any truthful Christian knows is in Christ alone. To insinuate that the Hindos, Muslims, and Budhists are keeping in line with our Tradition is a diservice to Christ and the Church. Salvation is possible for all mankind only in Christ. This does not mean that mankind cannot repent and accept Christ on the earth. This also does not mean we have ultimately judged their salvation. There is always the opportunity to embrace the true Christian Faith. This also does not mean we are condemning non-Christians to everlasting Hell. I believe people create their own hells. Hell being the absence of God in Christ. People are living in hell. We as true Christians, I pray & hope, are not distancing anyone from the nearness of Christ. There is no falsehood in declaring that Christians & non-Christians may be living in their own hell. They may not even know Christ but God in some mysterious way may intervene in their lives. We may also intervene in others lives by the Holy Spirit. It is not the goal of the Church to have people remain in the dungeon of their hell. We are commanded to love our enemies in return that they may unconditionally love in Christ. That even means speaking the Christian truths. We don't have to force anything down anyone's throat. We do not have to play politically correct games. The Saints & the Martyrs did not.
Many times we as Christians live in hell. If not, then why the need for repentance, forgiveness and communion? As for the non-Christians they may understand partially our beliefs but lack the fullness of our truths. Being truly of good will and of sound virtue does not lead to salvation in Christ. We have moral atheists and humanists.

Sad to say, but I believe the Latin Church has let her guards down to relativism. I have seen this in the bahavior of the Pope, bishops and laity. You don't venerate lies by kissing of the Quran nor should you committ your flock to fast one day of Ramadan. Nowadays, I hear, see, and meet former Roman Catholics becoming Muslims. There is no salvation in Islam, Hinduism and Budhaism. They lack and deny Christ. Can they be saved in Christ? Sure. Are they in hell? Obviously. Do I want them to remain there? Absolutley not. Dialogues are sometimes useful and not so useful. I believe in the monologue of Christ and the Church in sharing & expressing our faith. There are no compromises in what we already know or believe. Most importantly is that we adhere to our theosis to make the greatest impact. Dialogues don't do that.

OrthodoxyOrDeath,

According to author H.W. Crocker III, Justin Martyr - a pagan Stoic philosopher by training - taught that Chrisitianity was a natural religion and that pagans such as Socrates would then and should then be considered Christians. Of course this has to do with Socrates time on earth being spent before Christ... but this concept (indeed truth if it is indeed truth) is depended also on good will and virtue.

I submit to you that of all things Christian, that is the Mass or Divine Liturgy aside, one could just spend all his days working to master the 4 cardinal virtues... and he will have his hands full doing Christian work.

I am presently reading Marcus Aurelius "Meditations". And from reading this mans thoughts, ponderings, from getting a glimpse into the soul of this man, I can not one second believe this man was so far away from God that salvation was beyond him.

I notice you equate the Latin Church holding Islam and Hindue in high esteem with the Latin Church, the Pope, surrendering it's authority and mission by Christ on earth to all other's presumably even to your Orthodox Church. Yet I'm sure on another thread you will be ranting the Latin Church and it's Pope demands all sumbit it's institution and mission from Christ. Please make up your mind as to which reason it is you hate the Latin Church and Bishop of Rome.

OrthodoxyOrDeath, I personaly admire a number of things about the Hindue and Muslim faith. And to be honest out of the 5 great religions, Islam I have more of a problem with, but even with that I would rather discuss theological issues with a Muslim the with a typical Protestant. Now here's something to give you a heart attack - I am very fond of Buddhism. Infact I think Christianity has more incommon with Buddhism - theological - then with Islam, and perhaps in some ways more then Judism.

If you listen to the tone and direction of your posts on this topic, you might find you sound much like a Protestant - virtue, good will, good works, the proper intent of the heart, will not save you, but only public shouting of "I believe in Jesus" will save you. I don't recall Christ condemning that Roman Guard that came to him, but rather he blessed him - not so much so in that the Roman Guard recognized eternal salvation in Christ as the Son of God, but rather because of the virute that moved the Roman soldiers heart, and because the Roman soldier because of his viture and goodness was wise enough to recognize God working in Jesus if not purely God in Jesus.

Dear Rum,

I am sorry you consider me to be a relativist. I don't think I am.

Neither does my Father Confessor, Bishop or Patriarch.

Or it could be that we're all relativists and only you are in the Truth.

Please forgive me, but I really have no wish to correspond further with such an offensive person as yourself.

There are many other intelligent and spiritual Orthodox Christians to correspond with on this Forum.

Alex

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Would you like "Orthodox Catholic?"

I suppose we could trade . . .

But really, if you would like it, I would gladly let you have it, Friend!

Alex

Dear Alex,
Take it easy. I have read dozens of our posts. They have led me to believe that. Being in union with Rome is enough to convince of that as well. I still like you Alex. You have nice day now.

Dear Rum,

Then please forgive me a sinner, Rum.

I like you, too, and was wondering if your regard for me as a relativist meant that you hated me.

Let's put our disagreements over Abdur behind us and start a new slate, shall we?

I am closer to Orthodoxy than ever.

And it was my mother who always taught me to regard myself as an ethnic "Rum."

You've twigged my interest and I'll study up on the whole subject.

Forgive me, once again.

Alex

Alex,

On the list of the passions, jealousy is right up there; so let this just be a trial for me.


Maximus,

Have you ever heard the phrase: “you are what you eat?”, well, your mind is likewise what it eats. I would encourage you to stop reading all of these “pagan Stoic philosopher's” and drink from the pure fountains of the Church.

I have been spending time reading the Philokalia, a book which the Orthodox consider only exceeded in importance by the Bible. In fact, elsewhere I said, if one wants to understand Christianity they should read the NT before the OT. I'll go one step further, if one wants to understand Christianity, they should read the Philokalia, then the NT, then the OT.

As far as me sounding like a Protestant, for one to write such things means that he must be ignorant of both Protestantism and Orthodoxy. At no time have I said “Just believe in Jesus”, on the contrary, I have been saying that all should recognize the authority and perfection of the Church, and that She alone is the Ark of Salvation. Protestantism on the other hand is a refusal to acknowledge that the Holy Spirit illumines and guides the Church and that there are multiple “paths” to salvation and that the Church is a fuzzy pluralistic collection of people living virtuous lives and erroneous doctrine. Which is what you are promoting.

Just because one believes in Orthodox doctrine does not save him, and I'm not sure how you figure I have stated so. I am struggling each day for perfection and I have a terrible fight everyday. As St. Nicodemos says, those who withdraw to the desert are fighting the war from trenches, those who live in the world are doing hand-to-hand combat.

Rum
Orthodox,

I think you have been drinking to much rum.

Church tradition are teachings recieved oraly down from the time of the Apostles. That does not mean I would be the one who is the guru of tradition but it does mean that there certainly are a number of Bishops who would understand "tradition" better then I. And what has come out of Rome as far as I am concerned regarding this topic is not unChristian nor a threat to the Catholic Church, therefore I recieve my orders as an obedient soldier.

Rum, could it be one tries to be to mystical? The fact is regarding this hell of yours, I would rather be a sober man of Marcus Aurelius time full of virtue, kingly, and a soldier. Do my time in that hell -as you call it- then be in total communion with your Orthodox Church and in the heaven of a slobering drunkeness and mind going mad.

The truth is Gandhi was a good man. The truth is Salladin was a good man. Both these men I'm afraid often held a purer heart then mine, they were men of good intent and virtue. I'm quite confident they both are in Heaven with our Lord. Does this take away from our Lord - no. Have greater confidence in Christ then to think that His allowing good men, who served other faiths then the faith of His Apostles, into union with Him in heaven as we call it, some how takes away from the truth of Christ's Lordship.

Rum, the Bible is not above the Church. It is the men in the Church, the people of God, who are more important. The Bible as a theological document must be taken as a whole. Not just in bits.

Angela, I think that is a nice name.

May her Son lead us to salvation through a life in Him and Him in us.

Dear Maximus,

Please leave my dear friend, Rum Orthodox, alone!


God bless you, Confessor of the Faith,

Alex

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Yes, I agree!

The Philokalia is such a wonderful well-spring of spirituality that one may drink and drink of it and always want (and need) more.

And you are also more than correct that it truly does help one delve into the New Testament much more deeply.

I keep my prayer rope with me always and the Philokalia has taught me that anytime is the right time for the Prayer or Epiclesis of Jesus Christ!

Alex

There was a woman who had to face an unexpected pregnancy, which she told no body about. She was a silly sort of woman, and didn't know what to do, so she said "I'm gonna ask Rum Orthodox what his opinion of the New York Knicks is. If he says that they're playing horrible basketball these days, I'm gonna have an abortion." She asks, you say the Knicks are horrible, and she has the abortion. Are you guilty of the murder of that innocent child?

I would think you'd answer that you weren't responsible, as you clearly wouldn't be in this situation. Nevertheless someone could say that you were guilty, since what you said caused her to get an abortion. But again, you were ignorant of any of this, so it truly wasn't your problem.

Pardon the crude example (though the Knicks are indeed playing horribly...that much is true ), but I think the same principles are involved. How can we believe in a God of Mercy, who wishes not the condemnation of an individual, but his salvation, and then say that that very same God of Mercy would condemn an individual who knew not of God and Christ, but believed in and followed his own religion and its god faithfully? What of the many people out there, even in my native India, who haven't heard the message of Christ, but continue to live devout Hindu lives? I don't believe God would not save them. Mind you, this doesn't take away the responsibility to evangelise and preach the Gospel, but I doubt we'll reach literally everybody before someone dies...

Per my understanding, the Latin Church doesn't say that other religions can save, but that those who follow other religions faithfully according to their conscience, in invincible ignorance of Christ and the Gospel, are saved by Christ. The key is that all people who are saved are saved by Christ, whether they know it or not.

So if the pious, righteous Hindu knew of Christ, heard the Gospel, and understood the necessity of Christ, and still rejected Him, you might have a case. But if he never heard the message, I don't see how He could condemn the good man, who did as much right as he knew to do. Who and what are we that we can put limits on what God can and can't do?

Perhaps it's a failure of you and me that they don't know. I'm not sure of your ethnicity (for some reason, Arab/Middle Eastern screams out at me), but I'm sure wherever you're from there are those who do not believe, just as in my native India, there are those who do not believe. Many of these, have not even heard the message that they might believe. If you and I are so quick to condemn those who haven't heard the Gospel, perhaps we should put our money where our mouths are, and leave our comfortable American lives, and preach the Gospel to all of those people, out of love for them, and zeal for their salvation in Christ?

You don't venerate lies by kissing of the Quran nor should you committ your flock to fast one day of Ramadan.

OK, I'll give you the Qu'ran kissing thing, I'm not too keen on that...

First off, the Pope asked that everyone fast that day in December...Friday, the fourteenth. You seem pretty ambitious to point out that this was during Ramadan, but you conveniently ignore the fact that this was also a Friday (traditionally a day of fasting anyway), and a Friday in Advent, a penitential season in the Latin Church. They weren't bound to fast that day, since their law doesn't require it...the Pope didn't command the fast, he asked that people participate in it, but didn't bind anyone to it. But firstly, a Friday in Advent is as good a day to fast as any...but to choose that particular day to fast, and to fast alongside Muslims who are celebrating their own penitential season, I thought, was appropriate with all that was/is going on. But why are you so intent to say that the Latins were promoting Islam or whatever? I don't recall any Orthodox leaders condemning the idea, but perhaps I'm not in the know, and you are...please let me know.

Nowadays, I hear, see, and meet former Roman Catholics becoming Muslims.

And there are no Orthodox whatsoever who become Muslim? I've met one myself, and she was pretty well steeped in the Orthodox tradition...and she didn't convert because of marriage or anything...purely out of belief.

There is no salvation in...Hinduism. They lack and deny Christ.

I don't know so much about the others, but as far as Hindus go, I think they recognise all religions to be pathways to God, and so I know Hindus who have gone to pray in mosques (how that happened, I don't know), and Hindus who include in their puja rooms pictures or icons of Jesus and Mary, whom they pray to. You'd be hard pressed to find Hindus who flat out deny Christ the way Muslims might deny Him, or Jews for that matter. At least as far as my experience goes, and in my country, you come across quite a number of Hindus...

Mor Ephrem,

I realize you addressed your post to Rum O but if I may, I'll make it very short.

People are not as hopelessy lost as you make them out to be. Look at how many people can give you the stats on how many moals the New York Knicks center has on his rear end but if asked about the Ressurection he would think you were talking about a horror movie.

People are motivated by their passions so let our only passion be Christ.

And again, I don't think anyone has condemned anyone.

Thanks.

Dear Catholicos,

As always, your posts are greatly appreciated for their wit, wisdom and awesomeness in general!

I read that the main Islamic advisor to President George Bush (has he recovered from that pretzel accident?)is, in fact, a former Greek Orthodox Christian who was destined for the Priesthood!

He was in a car accident and said it was then that he saw the light . . .

I understand that Hinduism does indeed accept Jesus as the 9th incarnation of one of their gods. Others venerate him as "St Isa" etc.

Even the Roman Emperor Alexander Severus included a statue of Christ among his Roman gods - I guess he was hedging his spiritual bets.

I know this since this is the Emperor under which my wife's patron saint suffered martyrdom.

She tells me that she is a modern Tatiana suffering under a modern Alexander. . .

Alex

Saladin?

Salah ad-Din: Muslim theologian and warrior.



Arabic Salah ad-Din, 1137?–1193,

Muslim warrior and Ayyubid sultan of Egypt, the great opponent of the Crusaders, b. Mesopotamia, of Kurdish descent. He lived for 10 years in Damascus at the court of Nur ad-Din, where he distinguished himself by his interest in Sunni theology. He accompanied his uncle, Shirkuh (or Shirkoh), a lieutenant of Nur ad-Din, on campaigns (1164, 1167, 1168) against the Fatimid rulers of Egypt. Shirkuh became vizier there and on his death (1169) was succeeded by Saladin. Saladin later caused the name of the Shiite Fatimid caliph to be dropped from the Friday prayer, thus deposing him. After the death of Nur ad-Din, who was planning to campaign against his too-powerful subordinate, Saladin proclaimed himself sultan of Egypt, thus beginning the Ayyubid dynasty. He spread his conquests westward on the northern shores of Africa as far as Qabis and also conquered Yemen. He took over Damascus after Nur ad-Din's death and undertook to subdue all Syria and Palestine. He had already come into conflict with the Crusaders (see Crusades), and he put the rulers of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem (see Jerusalem, Latin Kingdom of) on the steadily weakening defensive. He was unsuccessful in his efforts to conquer the Assassins in their mountain strongholds, but he took Mosul, Aleppo, and wide areas from rival Muslim rulers and became the principal warrior of Islam. Gathering a large force of Muslims of various groups—but all called Saracens by the Christians—he set out to attack the Christians. Raymond of Tripoli was at first his ally, but then joined the other Crusaders, and the great battle of Hattin (near Tiberias) in 1187 found Christians matched against Muslims. Saladin won brilliantly, capturing Guy of Lusignan and Reginald of Châtillon. The city of Jerusalem also fell to him. The Third Crusade was gathered (1189) and came to the Holy Land to try to recover the Holy City. Thus it was that Richard I of England and Saladin met in the conflict that was to be celebrated in later chivalric romance. The reputation that Saladin had among the Christians for his generosity and chivalry does not seem to have been a legend, and there seems no doubt that Saladin admired Richard as a worthy opponent. The Crusaders, however, failed in their purpose and succeeded only in capturing Akko. In 1192, Saladin came to agreement with the Crusaders upon the Peace of Ramla, which left the Latin Kingdom only a strip along the coast from Tyre to Yafo. The Christians were never to recover from their defeat. 

Dear OorD,

Look at how many people, including Christians of all sorts, "preach" the Knicks, versus their preaching of the Resurrection.

The Knicks people are more effective in sending their message out than we often are, even though we have a message more precious than gold. Perhaps we should work on that...

God bless, and Amen re: our only passion being Christ!

Salah al-Din "The Righteousness of the Faith."

Saladin was the founder of the Ayyubid dynasty which ruled Egypt from 1171-1250 A.D. (567-647 H).


Saladin was born in 532 H in the Kurdish village near Takrit. He was brought up on piety and courage, and was distinguished by his intelligence and discretion. Saladin started his rule of Egypt by confining himself more than anyone else to an austerity plan. He refrained from all the luxuries of life in order to set an example to his companions, in confronting the dangers jeopardizing the state. He exerted his utmost to establish a strong state that had full power to liberate all the Arab territories from foreign invasion of the Crusaders.


His Principles:

Righteousness and Peace:


Fighting for peace and justice were his principles and in leading armies was an example of wisdom, flexibility, cunning and self-denial


. Despite his strength and self-restraint in the battlefield, he treated his enemies kindly.
When he conquered Jerusalem, he ordered his soldiers not to harm any of the Crusaders and released all the elderly people.


Saladin's tolerance and justice:


He was a man of charity. Despite his successive glories and victories, he had no real interest in money, as he bequeathed all his money to the poor. and the needy.


His doors were wide open for all people to submit their complaints and petitions.


A Charismatic Figure:


He won the love of all Egyptians. He canceled many taxes imposed by the Fatimids. During his reign, both Muslims and Christians enjoyed unprecedented religious freedom. Egyptian Copts and Christians had his pictures hung on the walls of their churches.

Domestic Achievements:

Saladin and the Ayyubid Dynasty are celebrated in the history of Islamic civilisation as well as the entire world not only for their outstanding military success against the Crusaders, but also for the remarkable diplomacy as peace advocates.


The impact of the Ayyubid Dynasty on Islamic culture is another important factor worthy of credit. This is substantiated in the great schools he founded. The educational significance of each was on a par with modern colleges.


The most well-known of these schools are the First E1 Nassirea School, built near Amr Ibn E1 Aas Mosque and was confined to teaching the Shafaeya doctrines of Islamic jurisprudence, the Second Nassirea School, built near E1 Imam El-Shafai area, the El-Kamhiya School for teaching the Malikeya doctrines of Islamic jurisprudence and E1 Sioufia School for teaching Hanifya jurisprudence doctrines.

Saladin extended the Fatimid walls of Cairo to encircle old Egyptian capitals: (E1 Kataa'e, E1 Askar and E1 Fostat).

He constructed a citadel on the western side of E1 Moqattam Hill to overlook the old Egyptian Islamic capitals. Construction began in 1176 and was completed after his death by his successors E1 Adel and E1 Kamel.

He inaugurated a general hospital in 1182 free of charge.

Quite a big number of cities for serving military purposes are attributed to the Ayyubid Dynasty (E1 Adelya City south of Damietta, E1 Mansoura and Salihya).

Sculpture flourished during the Ayyubid Dynasty especially stone and gypsum carvings in domes, windows and minarets. Samples of which are displayed at the Islamic Museum.
Woolen, cotton and flaxen textile industries also thrived.


The Ayyubid Dynasty influenced Arab literature, which developed into exuberant forms.
The creativity of literary men who deserted palaces to the public arena was most conspicuous.

Saladin allowed the performance of the phantasmagoria (a visual art taken after the Fatimid Dynasty) before the public. It was previously confined to the palaces of the wealthy.

Saladin set up a citadel in Pharaoh's Island at the Citadel Bay and another at Ras E1 Gondi at E1 Barouk Valley near E1 Arish Valley in Sinai.

Abdur,

Good to see you again

I suppose we start again on a little more peaceful grounds now.

Saladin! Or Salah ad-Din. Yes this was the Saladin I was speaking of. His reputation as a gentleman and a man of mercy was widely known amongst Christians of his time - so much so we would like to claim him as our own - and all that you posted of him suerly was true.

You know it was outside of Jerusalem I believe?? That the Christians and Crusaders inside the walls of Jerusalem told a Christian mother who's daughter was abducted to go to Saladin (who was camped outside the city along with his Muslim army ready to attack the city and reclaim it for Islam) and tell him about her daughter, they told her he was a good and just man. The woman did. And Saladin moved by the womans tears and sorrow ordered that who ever had her child to bring her forward and return her, and that he would personaly pay the ransom or debt to warrior. The child was returned to her mother they both were safely escorted back to the gates of Jerusalem. Saladin also to my understanding died in poverty (of his choice) and had only a modest grave reserved for him (of his choice). He of course had all of the Templars and Hospitallars executed after the defeat of the Christian at the battle of Hattin, but this I would not say was an act of hatred and pure evil on his part, but rather one might say a wise decission on his behalf. For the Templars and Hospitallars unlike the secular Knight legions would never submit to slavery or pay ransom for their freedom nor would they ever surrender their resolve to fight. They were the most aggressive and fearless of the Crusaders and as Saladin knew... the greatest threat to Islamic empire.

Reginald of Chatillon, now here's a character, and proof that not all Christians come in love or good will. The Muslims of his time called him "the incarnate Satan". And he was quite a ruthless man who was moved far more by greed then a love of Christianity in his expeditionary involvement of the Crusades. Infact I think it might well have been because of his *extra credit* activity that the Crusades in the end failed in the Holy Land as it did. This is the man who brung down the wrath of Saladin by giving extra inspiration for Saladin to unite all of the Muslim world against the Crusaders. And quite a number that was.

Dear OoD,

Please learn some manners. It is rude to come on this board and blast those who are not Orthodox. Using the phrase "Latinism" is very prejorative and is basically the equivalent of "Niggerism"--neither of which is charitable or in the spirit of Christ.

While we may disagree with the RCs and ECs on some points, let's do it in the right spirit. From what I understand, good Orthodox praxis is to worry about one's own sins and not to point out the sins of others--especially the incessant manner in which you do it.

Please receive this in the gentle manner it was intended.

the sinner, Joseph

Joseph,

I assure you I did not mean the word Latinism in an offensive way. I speak honestly and openly and think that much of what passes for "manners" today is really just the sin of flattery and hypocrisy.

And after a careful review, you will see I have never discussed anyone elses sins, that is a grave accusation which I hope you will consider. I have only discussed doctrine and feel it is perfectly appropriate since Eastern Catholics consider themselves Orthodox, which is my faith as well.

Would it not be a tremendous discovery to find that the impossible exists, that is, there are differences between our versions of Orthodoxy? Is this not worth discussing?

Sufism, Sufis, and Sufi Orders: Sufism's Many Paths 

 From the Fatawa of Shaykh 'Abd al-Halim Mahmud: 

Sufism isn't "real" Islam?

Let orthodox Cairo speak:

On Sufism

Shaykh 'Abd al-Halim Mahmud, the chief religious authority in Egypt (Shaykh al-Azhar) until his death in 1978, in his book of legal pronouncments (Fatawa) clarified the nature of Sufism in the following manner:   

Abu Bakr al-Kattani stated in his definition of Sufism (al-Tasawwuf) that it consists of [high-quality] comportment (khuluq).  So one whose comportment improves in quality, his purity (al-safa') will [similarly] become increased.  

Abu al-Hasan al-Nawawi stated, "Sufism neither consists of particular customs nor knowledge.  Rather it consists of [high-quality] comportment (khuluq).  Were it to consist of particular customs, it could be attained through striving (al-mujahada); and were it to consist of knowledge, it could be attained through instruction.  Sufism, however, consists of taking on the qualities of God (akhlaq Allah).   

Shibli defined it [Sufism], saying that its beginning is gnosis of God; and its end point is His affirmation of unity.   
And the comprehensive definition is the words of Abu Bakr al-Kattani, "Sufism is purity and witnessing. And Sufism began immediately with [the advent of] Islam.  This is because Islam consists of noble behavior as well as attunement to God in both simple affairs and those of great magnitude." 
  
Among the first Sufis after the Companions [of the Prophet] and the Followers [who succeeded them] were Ibrahim ibn Ad'ham and Fudayl ibn 'Ayyad.  As a consequence of people's confusion between the [terms] ascetic (zahid), worshipper ('abid), and Sufi, we can state [the following]: 

"The ascetic is one who turns away from the goods of the world and its pleasant things. 

The worshipper is one who is careful to observe the acts of worships, such as getting up [to prayer at night] (al-qiyam), canonical prayer (al-salat), and similar things. 
The Sufi is both an ascetic and a worshipper.  Thus the Sufi abstains from the world, since he is beyond the point where anything can distract him from God."   

Also, the Sufi is a worshipper because of his constancy with God and his link with God (may He be exalted).  He worships God because God is suitable for worshipping, not out of desire or fear.  [The Sufi woman saint] Rabi'ah al-'Adawiya --may God be pleased with her-- said, "O God, if I am worshipping you out of fear of Your hellfire, cast me into it.  And if I am worshipping you out of desire for Your paradise, prohibit me from entering it.  And if I am worshipping  You for the sake of Your noble face, do not prohibit me from seeing You." 

(From the Fatawa of Imam 'Abd al-Halim 
Mahmud)
 
 
Are the Sufis hopelessly mystical and otherworldly? Don't ask the Russians.

www.iol.ie/~afifi/Articles/chechnya.htm

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Alex,
I am fond of you and have no hatred for you even though I suspect you of relativist tendencies. Just today I was conversing with my Arab Latin relatives. We enjoy one anothers company and love to listen to one another especially when it comes to our religious differences. Just like I enjoy listening to you.

Dear Maximus,
I really admire your saintly name. I didn't have any rum tonight but I did have three bottles of "Red Stripe" beer(Jamaican berr, Ya man) and I was reflecting about my trip to Jamaica in November. Thanks for the memory, Aery man! Stay away from gancha.

Mor Ephrem,
Me not so sure of your post. "Silly sort of woman"? Silly rabbit tricks are for kids. I don't care for sports or for the Snickers bar.
Be very careful about placing your words in my mouth in regards to condemning others lest you turn me into one of the Hindu incarnate gods. As for your Baba John Paul II he did indeed command from his throne a day of Islamic fasting with the Muslims. Read this Muslim link http://www.islamonline.org/English/News/2001-12/13/article9.shtml or http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/angelus/2001/documents/hf_jp-ii_ang_20011209_en.html

I dont believe that declared day of fasting was just a mere coincidence with Ramadan. It was intended. Besides I didn't think the Latins fasted during Advent. What are the fasting rules of the Latins and when are they practiced? Is it at the spur of the moment like Dec 14?

Believe it or not, I have read about many female Catholics converting to Islam on the cover of magazines and my local newspapers. I was not looking for these types of readings. I have not heard much about female Orthodox doing the same. However, I will grant you just one. lol
I read the absurd stories of these former Catholics & why Islam. It seems that they were disenfranchised with Western Christianity and wanted "true" religion. There's this former Catholic woman that has on her Illinois license plate "RU MUSLM". These are the most naive women mankind has ever known. They are certainly content where they are at and maybe you should hear what they really have to say of Catholicism. Myself, have met with some whom I think are flakes. I am sorry but that is what I encountered. They think they are intelligent and evangelizers like Jimmy Swagert. I'm tired of even thinking of them. Anyways, I'll talk to you boys another time. Salami alikum wa Muhammed's baloney as well.

Women in Islam

http://understandingislam.tripod.com/Women.htm

Dear Rum,

"I suspect you have relativist tendencies"

I can live with that, Orthodox Servant of Christ!

I, on the other had, strongly suspect you don't!

Alex

Dear Rum O.,

First off, you should seriously consider drinking Indian beer...

But on a more serious note, I read the links you gave me, and I personally gave more credence to the address of the Pope, where he cites many Christian reasons for fasting, and then mentions that the fast coincides with the last day of Ramadan. I think the key word in paragraph four is "moreover". Do the Latins fast during Advent? Not officially, as in mandated by canon law. But I know many Latins who do fast during Advent. Surely they aren't doing anything bad. All I said was that it was a Friday, and a Friday in what should be a penitential season, to boot. So the Pope decided to call a fast on an Advent Friday that also coincided with the last day of the Muslim fast. So what? I see nothing wrong with this. It's not advocating or promoting another religion. I fasted that day, even though I'm not Catholic (no, Rum O., while I'm pleased you identified me alongside JPII, he's not technically my Baba), in solidarity with Catholics and other Christians of good will, Orthodox and Protestant, and also with Muslims who were fasting and praying that day, not because I agree with everything everyone believes, but because that day was set aside by him to pray for peace, something we all need. If you saw Ground Zero up close and personal a week after it all happened, you'd fast too.

What are the fasting rules of the Latins and when are they practiced? Is it at the spur of the moment like Dec 14?

The grace of God moves where it wills, I guess.

Now go buy some Indian beer! :p

Women in Islam
http://answering-islam.org/Women/index.html

Dear Mor Ephrem,
I have no problem with the idea of fasting. I thought it unusual to coincide with Ramadan. I think this type of gesture is of a political nature. Please note that the fast took place on Dec. 14 not Sept. 11. I guess any Patriarch could command any day of fast. I had to ask myself "what gives"? If the Latins are already fast on Fridays then there would not have been more of a papal emphasis. Perhaps that's great that Baba John is revigorating the fasting rules but I think they have their rules buried somewhere in time and history. I saw this as only an exception. Where in the history of the Latin Church is there a day of fast on Dec. 14? I see the rules of fasting discarded a long time ago. I know that fasting is a great spiritual tool. Perhaps, the Latins may incorporate, instill, and adhere to fasting with the Orthodox. I would prefer to see that rather than to coincide with Ramadan. Ramadan is what brought havoc on Christendom. It is the day that the "revelations" came upon Mr. Muhammed ibn Abdallah as the chosen prophet of God. Do you think we can use more prophets like him? Perhaps God speaks to us through false prophets and distorted scriptures. Now, I think I will go buy some of your Indian beer tonight. It better be good. I might of tried it once but I forgot. Anyways, I'll have a drink to you and to all my Muslim friends.

By the way does Abdur drink? Abdur, are there any good Sufi drinks? With all those dances you guys do, I know I would need a drink.

Dear Rum,

"Dances the Sufis do"

Just a note from your loving relativ(ist).

This reminded me of the Orthodox New Martyr St Alexander the Whirling Dervish.

He became a Christian and preached Christianity for 17 years by doing his Dervish dancing among his Turkish countrymen.

Since he was a Dervish, they all thought he wasn't sincere and so he could do this for as long as he did.

One day he was found out and died a New Martyr's death for Christ.

And no, he drank neither beer nor rum . . .

Alex

Dear R.O.,

I think you and I will get along just fine...

Please note that the fast took place on Dec. 14 not Sept. 11.

True, but things happened so fast that day, I don't think anyone was really thinking as much as they were absorbing and reacting. I know here in New York I wasn't...

I know that fasting is a great spiritual tool. Perhaps, the Latins may incorporate, instill, and adhere to fasting with the Orthodox.

I couldn't agree with you more!

But allow me to say something in defence of Islam. Mind you, I believe what you believe about it, though probably without as much feeling and gusto as yourself. But I can see how people dissatisfied with what they perceive to be Christianity, Eastern or Western, would embrace Islam.

I know of one person who a few years ago, when Christianity "didn't really do much" for him, read up on Islam and actually thought for a little bit of becoming a Muslim, because of the example of their faithfulness to prayer and to Allah...it was the kind of stuff he was looking for.

But he was saved from that, and came to a renewed Christian fervour, and fell in love with Christ and the Gospel all over again, and found EVERYTHING he was looking for, through the prayers of the Mother of God. And now he can't fathom being anything other than an Eastern Christian.

That person was me.

And regarding the dancing of the Sufis, I remember learning about it in a world religions class, and the prof said that when someone criticised them for dancing when they should've been praying, their leader said "we are praying". I liked that answer...made me wanna dance!

Mor Ephrem,
I am glad you are the Christian you are, al-Hamdillah. I have been studing Islam for over 12 years. This became a passionate study of mine at a time when I was not in the Church. The lies propagated by Islamic apologists drove me crazy. I became anti-Islamic but not anti-Muslim. I then immersed myself in apologetics, history, and language. Believe it or not, I discovered the history of the Arab Christians and that of Orthodoxy. I was intrigued by Orthodoxy and then my journey began. Today, I am full- blooded "savage" Orthodox immersed in the foolish love of Christ. Did you hear that world?! Where's me rum! lol

Greetings to my brother Alex. I cant wait for my vacation next month to Cancun, Mexico. There I will be drinking my Corona beers, no rum man.

Thanks, Rum Orthodox! I'm glad you're the savage you are, and that I'm the lightweight who's hopefully gaining here and there...

Just curious...what does "al-Hamdillah" mean? "By the grace of God"?

Mor Ephrem,
al-Hamdillah means Praise Be To God
or if you like
al-Hamdil-Maseeh= Praise Be To Christ

Na'mit Allah means Grace of God
Rahmit Allah means Mercy of God

This list can go on & on & on...

Dear All,

It is true that, for the most part, the laws of the Latin church regarding days of abstinence and fasting have changed. There are, though, still days on which we are directed by our church law to abstain from meat and to fast in the traditional way.

That being said, no one has told Latin Catholics that they may not abstain or fast. Many of us still use abstinence and fasting as a form of self discipline and penance. Certainly not all do, but significant numbers do.

In fact, at the time that the law was changed, Latin Catholics were encouraged to fast and abstain in the traditional way. In the churches where I worship, we still are encouraged to do so.

But we were challenged to take up our personal responsibility to determine what we need to do to in regard to discipline, and penance and spiritual growth. For example, for cyber folk, practicing care in what we say about one another is a constant form of discipline that can be intensified during Advent and Lent.

I'd like to think that what is happening is that people in the Western Church are taking up the challenge.

Steve
JOY!

Rob, Mor Ephrem is a Thomist Syriani (Malankar).

Ghasbin 'an rasso, bid'do yit'allam il 'arabi.

Mor, I suggest a strict regime of Arabic studies. Knowing Syriani (a Semitic tongue), it would be a shame if you don't study the other languages of that family.

You may go ahead and Syrianize this Syrian anytime. Feel free to instuct me in Indian, if you want.

I highly suggest you visit the village of Ma'looulah in Syria. The people speak Aramaic (Palestinian dialect), but that will soon be gone by the next generation.

In IC XC
Samer

Believe it or not, Samer, I actually have one of those books that you're supposed to work through and teach yourself Arabic...the only thing I'm afraid of is the alphabet...I hope I'd be able to read it...others can, I know, I just hope I can figure it out. I've wanted to travel in the Middle East for some time now, so I figured I should learn.

Unfortunately, I don't "know" Syriac, I just know a few prayers, and some other minor things. The languages I want to learn now are quite a few -- I want to improve my Malayalam and Spanish (can't be in New York City without some proficiency ), and also learn Syriac, Italian, Arabic, and Hindi. Hopefully, I'll have time to refresh the first two, and also learn the other four.

Unfortunately, college hasn't cooperated. But with my almost settled schedule and three months of vacation after it, I hope to get the books I need and get to work. If I'm successful at Arabic (insha Allah...I think...my uncle worked in Kuwait and Oman for years, I picked it up from him...I'm trying to say God willing, just in case I butchered that one up ), I shall use it every so often here...I look forward to it.

Thought this might be of use...

WEST CAN LEARN FROM THE EAST ABOUT ISLAM, SAYS PATRIARCH

Bartholomew I Reflects on Implications of Sept. 11

ROME, (ZENIT.org-Avvenire).- Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople was one of the first to respond enthusiastically to the papal invitation to participate in a Day of Prayer at Assisi.

The 62-year-old, considered "first among equals" among the various patriarchs, has been the spiritual leader of 270 million Orthodox for the past 11 years.

Bartholomew I never loses an opportunity to dialogue with other Christian Churches, especially the Catholic Church. "The Pope and I are good friends," he often says.

Q: Holiness, what were the reasons that impelled you to come to Assisi?

Bartholomew I: As first bishop of the Orthodox Church, primate of the ecumenical throne, I joyfully responded to the fraternal invitation of John Paul II, the Pope of Rome, in harmony with the most urgent imperative of our era: All those who respect God and love man must be ready to give their own testimony in favor of peace and to struggle together to obtain it.

On our part, we started on this path a long time ago. We regard it as our duty and carry it out with pleasure also here, in Assisi, where we wish to witness to the faith and hope of the Orthodox Church.

Q: Following Sept. 11, there is a risk of a clash of civilizations in which religion becomes a reason for conflict. How can such a scenario be avoided?

Bartholomew I: If you look carefully, there is nothing new. The debate on the clash of civilizations has lasted for years. Sept. 11 has tragically highlighted it, with the horrible claim of linking terrorism to a religious faith.

In order to struggle against such aberrations, we must journey together on the path of fraternal coexistence, love and peace. However this, in turn, calls for a real change in mentality, breaking with concepts and practices of the past. Above all it calls for repentance and forgiveness.

Q: Dialogue with Islam is being discussed. How can it begin?

Bartholomew I: Today the interreligious dialogue is more necessary than ever. The situation created after Sept. 11 should urge us to a dialogue with Islam that is founded on responsibility, sincerity and reciprocal respect. These are essential conditions for dialogue.

Q: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is on Islamic soil today. From this experience, what suggestions do you think you can give Christians of the West who are faced with the presence of Muslim faithful?

Bartholomew I: You Westerners give the impression of having been taken by surprise by the Muslim presence, and you often react in a confused and spasmodic way. We in the Ecumenical Patriarchate, on the contrary, and more generally we Christians of the East, have a long experience.

We have coexisted with Islam, uninterruptedly, since its birth. Coexistence has not always and everywhere been peaceful -- not even today. Despite all this we can say that it was and is coexistence.

Since the times of the Byzantine Empire, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sought a theological dialogue with Islam. However, there is also the existential dialogue that is exercised in daily coexistence among men of different beliefs. I think the West could learn something on the topic of dialogue and interreligious coexistence by looking at the experience of the East.

Q: What is your judgment on the war against terrorism launched after the attacks on the United States?

Bartholomew I: Terrorism and war, in any form and for any reason, are always a tragedy. The evil that was unleashed on Sept. 11 can cause an infinite sequence of other evils. However, we Christians know that evil is not defeated by evil.

Q: What are you referring to?

Bartholomew I: I refer above all to the inability to prevent the tragedy. Perhaps not everything possible was done. Also, the diagnosis and therapy adopted do not address the roots of the evil, the causes that have favored terrorism. Such omissions will not be forgiven in the future.

Q: Can the Assisi meeting relaunch the interreligious dialogue, especially between Christianity, Judaism and Islam?

Bartholomew I: This is the great hope. We hope that the Day of Prayer for Peace will renew the will to cooperate among all those who participate.

Q: What point has the ecumenical dialogue reached? Have John Paul II´s visits to Greece and Ukraine marked a step forward?

Bartholomew I: The ecumenical path, which has borne much fruit, has not yet been able to manifest the unity of Christians in a strong and visible way, so that it is also recognized by the world. This is also true of the dialogue between Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

There is need to renew the ecumenical thrust. From this perspective, John Paul II´s trips are certainly a great testimony to the desire for unity.

(He's only 62?! Quite young for an Ecumenical Patriarch... )

Samer, I can't believe I didn't catch this one the first time...I'm not a Thomist...I haven't read much Aquinas! :p

It is no surprise that Bartholomew would say: "All those who respect God and love man..."

He, the self-proclaimed "leader" of the worlds Orthodox.

Mor, I spotted that play on words when I first wrote the phrase. I did wonder whether you'd put your finger on it. Not intentional of course. Let's resurrect the original meaning of a Thomist, shall we?

In IC XC
Samer

Hella ya habeeb Allah,
Inshallah mubsuit. Whan ya akhi? Goli, kaf beduk tujbarro ala rasso yit'alim arabi? Towill ruhuk alay. lol

bil-Maseeh,
Akhuk il-Rumi

It is some what striking that coexistence with Islam need be mentioned even stressed. I've never heard the need of mentioning Christianity's coexistence with Buddhism? And for all history of bad blood with Christians to Jew relations - at least on the Protestant and Latin Catholic side of the house - have Jewish terror groups flown planes into American towers? Or Jewish gunmen taken over planes in France? Oh well I suppose we need another book about a Hitlers Pope... Or perhaps we can get a Talibans Pope book out in the near future? No better yet something on how the Kinghts of Colombus or the Knights of Malta have worked with the Vatican to secretly stop Afgans from flying kites, thus leading to Islamic terror groups planing to strike the twin towers.

****************

Not to try and take advantage of New Yorks tragedy and sorrow rage against the disrespect of the Virgin Mother in art. But has anyone else took notice that New York had not only the planes fly into the two towers, but also another plane about a week or two after that crash into a New York neighborhood that had already took many losses in the World Trade Center. Of course other planes landed else where on 9-11 but then again it wasn't Chicago's Sears Tower a major building in a major city too. It is some what puzzeling (if that's a good word) that New York had two seperate art gallerey exhibitions (funded by public money) not long before 9-11 displaying the Virgin Mary in the most negative light... with raves from much of the New Yorkers and with many of them standing in long line to see the art. Mrs. Clinton came out to back up one of the shows after the Mayor of New York condemned the exibition. On the other hand... Muslims - for all our disagreement - would never disrespect the Virgin Mary in art shows such as was done in New York.

Feel free to beat me up for putting the two together in that... light... and perhaps I am wrong for doing so... but... it makes you wonder?

Interesting thoughts, Max, but as a proud New Yorker, I will now beat you up. :p

When the "art" exhibits came out, to say I wasn't thrilled would be an understatement. I was livid. My friends who could respect my faith and respect the beliefs of others were also not too pleased. But most of my friends are the agnostic/atheist/hedonist/live your life the way you want, damn the consequences type, and so they'd always meet my disgust over this depiction of our Mother with the usual "Have you seen it? It looks different in person. It is beautiful."

I'm not a fan of modern art in general, but I wouldn't have called even this exhibit modern art, but modern filth. Nevertheless, I didn't buy the "it's beautiful in person" notion, and I just kept criticising away, while my art-connosseur friends just kept loving it. And I'm sure there were many others like them in the City, who rail against God and anything related to Him, for the reason which I wrote about in another thread. And it is surely enough to make God an angry Guy.

I remember once when someone in my family severely insulted my mother, and she came back home crying. I was so furious, burning with rage, and I was gonna immediately forget the fact that it was Holy Week, and that I was trying to keep to that spirit, I was gonna forget all the polite stuff, and I was gonna drive down there, and let them have it royally.

It was my mother who stopped me. Even in her pain, she wanted to spare them that, that much did she love them.

So it is, I think, with the Mother of God. I'm sure she was upset by the whole thing too...if someone painted an ugly picture of you and smeared it with crap, you would be angry. But even if her Son decided that He wasn't gonna let His Mother's honour be violated that way, and was gonna punish them for it in such a grievous way, I'm sure she would've stayed His Hand and said "No, please don't."

The Towers surely had many evil people in it. But there were also many good people. People who were just trying to live and work honestly, people who prayed, daily communicants, and others.

"'Lord, say there were ten good men in the city...would you save the whole city for the sake of the ten?' 'Yes, I will save it for the sake of the ten.'" (paraphrased)

Let's give credit where credit is due. Sure, New York can be an evil place. But any place in the world can be evil too. Just because Chicago and other "Middle West" cities were spared the violence of 11 September but New York wasn't doesn't mean that New York is particularly being punished. Chicago, along with New York and the rest of this country has dozens of abortion mills...does not the murder of so many innocents daily cry unto God for vengeance? And yet God has spared most of us from such calamities, and even prospered us, although this crime alone is enough to merit our end.

The terrorists were going after the Great Satan with all the force they could muster. They chose a known target for their intrigues. There aren't as many people in the world who know Chicago as there are people who know New York. New York is known almost universally, at least in my experience. They wanted to send a message with a global reach, and they did it.

I know a few people in my parish who made it out with their lives. My cousin was one of them. These are all good people. I have friends who live in Manhattan, going to school. They may not have been next to the Towers, but they felt the pain, fear, anguish, etc. One of them was my girlfriend. These friends of mine are also good people. So I hesitate to imply that God is punishing New York for its insults of His Mother. He has good reason to, but somehow I can't stomach that He would do that, if not for the many instances of His Mercy in the past, then because of the intercession of His Mother, who surely wouldn't want it to happen that way.

And before I finish, I will tell you that on the news they once showed an Afghan kid with a picture of the Sears Tower in Chicago saying "This one's mine!" or something to that effect. It would be stupidity to think that this sort of thing can never happen again...on the contrary, the kid might grow up and actually make that building his. God spare us from that day, but if it does happen, I for one won't be pointing fingers, but will be lifting up hands in prayer and also in any way I can to help the relief efforts.

And don't get me started about our beloved Senator Clinton...

You've got a deal, Samer...the original meaning of Thomist is now resurrected. I am a Thomist!

Mor Ephrem,

Thanks for not getting angry. You make alot of good points. And New York is better known and the towers were a symbol of American or Western economic might.

But just to clarify - I didn't mean to imply that God was punishing New York but rather, allowed it to happen. More like New York (in a whole sense regarding it as a community) withdrew from God rather then God withdrawing from New York.

And I believe what you say about Our Lady and her Son. But I tend to think of the first person of the Trinity as the God of the Old Testament.

Yes, your right also that the Sears Tower could be hit to in the future, or any city for that matter. But maybe they could do us a favor and get rid of Texas

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rum Orthodox:

It is the day that the "revelations" came upon Mr. Muhammed ibn Abdallah as the chosen prophet of God. Do you think we can use more prophets like him? Perhaps God speaks to us through false prophets and distorted scriptures.

Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem


"To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Whether you show what is in your minds or conceal it, Allah calls you to account for it. He forgives whom He pleases and punishes whom He pleases. For Allah has power over all things.

The Messenger believes what has been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one of them believes in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers. 'We make no distinction between one and another of His Messengers.' And they say: 'We hear and we obey; we seek Your forgiveness, Our Lord, and to You is the end of all journeys." (2:284-285.)

www.naqshbandi.org/audio/rasul.ram

Islamovic

Again, Maximus, it's an interesting idea. But somehow, I figure that if New York is bad, there are a few other big cities in this country who are just as bad and which also withdrew from God, and yet God allows New York to be hit because New York withdrew from God? New York isn't alone in this...and yet God allows it for New York?

I knew before that there were good people in New York, but after this, I really was stunned. And I found myself agreeing with the words of Metropolitan Archbishop Edward Cardinal Egan of New York when he was interviewed briefly after 11 September; namely, he said (and I'm paraphrasing some of this, since I heard it a while ago...if someone has the actual quote, please let me know) that since he'd been here he always knew New York for what everyone knew it for...but now he realised that it's not just a big city, or a popular city, a city of culture and arts, of business and finance, but a city full of holiness.

I can't speak for God...I just don't see it the way you offer above...and I feel safe saying that even if it wasn't New York, I'd feel the same way.

God bless!

Good post Mor Ephrem. I suppose there's not much to say to that.

By the way New York is one of my favorite cities. It's a good city with good people, I suppose though since it's so huge, many aspects of it are magnified.

Originally posted by OrthodoxyOrDeath

“The Orthodox position however is the same as that of the Church in all centuries past. Salvation can only be found within the Church. If one doubts this, then I suggest they start reading the Holy Fathers and reestablish contact with the fundamental teaching of the Church from all centuries past.”

Let us do just that.

The early father’s use of the phrase “no salvation outside the church” may be misunderstood when isolated from context.

I use the term Catholic Church as its is recorded and profusely used in all early church Ante-Nicene documents in conjunction with the church (“catholic church” - what church? the catholic church) and note that the term orthodox is used in conjunction with a description of right-faith and right-doctrine as opposed to wrong-faith and wrong-doctrine within that church (“orthodox faith” “catholic orthodoxy“) and note the word “orthodox” is absent from many early church documents altogether where the term “catholic church” is still found. The Church is called catholic and right-faith is called orthodox.

The context of the fundamental teaching is this….

The early years of the Catholic Church was very busy forming doctrine. Many fathers of the early church disagreed on many items… being a “father” of the church does not mean one was error free - we can read many errors in their writings - errors which were later rejected by Councils of the Church. These disagreements and errors within the church, in fact, necessitated the Councils to settle things and unify an expression of doctrine.

The context in which “no salvation outside the church” as used by the early fathers and Councils must be placed in conjunction with these many Heresies of the early church that these documents were addressing. Let me say that again … The context in which “no salvation outside the church” as used by the early fathers and Councils must be placed in conjunction with these many Heresies of the early church that these documents were addressing.

“No salvation outside the church” was used as part and parcel of anathema and excommunication - which anathemas and excommunications were applied to members of the church - only.

Here is the reasoning of the Church…
In as much as all means of salvation do exist within the Church (on which does not necessarily follow that non-members have no means of salvation)… then any church member, who while knowing and understanding the truth, willfully refuses a direct command by proper Church authority to cease and desist from teaching an error - does reject the truth and also its associated means of salvation and may be declared to be a member - ‘outside of the church’ - anathema and excommunication.

Therefore, excommunication applied to a member of the church also implies there is no salvation for that member while outside of the church.

This does not equate to the same things as - “there is no salvation for anyone who is not a member of the church.”

While member and non-members of the church may be in error - only members of the Church can be anathema or excommunicated. And that declaration has only been done by the authority of the hierarchy of the Church and on a person by person or case by case basis.

Of course the term heretic and heretical have always been thrown around very freely by people who wish to appear as saints, very intelligent, always in the right, but have no authority and use it as a thump card on the meek and confused.

At no time has the Church every taught that every one not a member of the Catholic Church - is a heretic and has no means of salvation.

The hierarchy of the Church has always recognized the difference between error and heresy. You may think of the difference like this - error is something that exists in the intellect while heresy is something that exists in the will of a member of the church. And the Church has always held that you can not reject what you do not know and understand and applied this to non-members.

The Church has always taught that the means of salvation are also extended to all men (non-members of the Church included) in as much as God governs all events of creation and any man may cooperate with these actions of Providence according to the morals of natural law (the Logos and Christ himself revealed through the things and events of creation).

…. Justin Martyr ….
"We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Moses, Elisha, Abraham, etc… and any good men of anytime who were never members of the judicial and historical Catholic Church as founded by Jesus in his apostles - still may come to salvation and ultimately, before or after death, full knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Sanctification is dependent upon one thing and one thing only - daily cooperation with Providence. This is available to all men of any nation and of any time and any belief. Deification is made through the build up of virtue - not intellectual knowledge and being doctrinally ‘right’.

All items, sacraments, rites and doctrines of the Church are an aide to that daily cooperation with Providence and their efficacy is dependent on free will and our cooperation with daily Providence.

While members of the Church have a duty to voice Christ’s message - as authorized by hierarchy - to the world … being a messenger does not assume automatic salvation to the messenger. Judas was also authorized to be an apostle and messenger.

While members of the judicial and historical Catholic Church and any of her rites or particular churches - who may deem that membership in the church, reception of the sacraments, fulfillments of her rites, intellectual knowledge of her doctrines - produces salvation irregardless of daily cooperation with the Will of God (Providence) is in error and makes of the church - magic - or Gnostic.

The Church has always insisted that God saves - the elements of the Church do not save but are of assistance - efficacy depended upon cooperation with Providence. I am not aware of any (there may be some) declarations by the Catholic Church on the efficacy of salvation of any non-Catholic churches. I guess that is God’s business and not ours.

-ray,

Awsome post! It is just insane how much can be learned about my faith from others across the internet. I've learned more about my faith from discussion with others on the internet in a year then I did with 1 through 12 years of Catholic schooling. Reading books helps of course, but it so much more inhanced with the help of communication with others via the internet.

Perhaps you should e-mail or fax your post to cradle Catholic Bill Maher - now agnostic. Alot of wrong information is put out about Catholicism on his show. I run into to many people who only get tabloid ( I think that's a good word to use ) type information about the Catholic Church and so think that Papal infalibilty means every word the Pope utters out of his mouth "good" catholics think our words sent from God. Same thing with things like indulgences - people think we believe we buy our way out of Purgatory. Even many lay catholics of this era think the same way of the Church, do to that outstanding education of our own faith recieve in Catholic schools.

FYI,

I have made several post here regarding this subject matter. Now I find a new member -ray and I dont want this to be confused with my name which is ray also (i.e. I am not trolling).

Thanks
Ray S.

How should the Church react to forced conversions in countries like Indos. and the middle east. Although, the Catholic Church has made efforts into improving Islam/Catholic relations the issue of forced conversion is still a thorn in the side of dialog. What are your thoughts?

RC@W, where's the evidence of forced conversions in India? I personally haven't seen it...I know of people in India who have converted from other religions and become Roman Catholic because then they could join Church-sponsored programmes to find work in Europe and North America. But such conversions weren't solicited. Just an example of a programme intended for Catholics, but which others took advantage of by converting.

I am sorry I should have spelled it out. I meant to say Indonesia. If you know me I am the worlds worse speller God gave us each talents spelling however is one he failed to hand out to me


Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!

LOL. I honestly thought you were saying India, but touched adjacent keys, since the o and the s in Indos are next to the i and the a in India. Oh well.

Islam came to Indonesia via missionaries and merchansts, not via invading armies. It became the religion of the ruling class (just as in Islamic Spain) and, over the centuries, was accepted by the majority of the Indonesian people.

On the other hand, if you mean forced conversions in the comtemporary sense you will have to provide me with specifics so that I might be able to respond to facts.

One thing I know for certain is the fact that the Islamic clerics of Indonesia would never accept as legitimate an other than voluntary or sincere conversion to Islam.

In other words, the Islamic clerics of Indonesia reject forced conversion to Islam just as the hierarchy of the Catholic Church reject the forced conversion of Jews to Catholicism.

Abdur

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

No offense (I mean this!) but if you do not think that there are no forced conversions in Indonesia then I believe you are living in fantasy land. We have countless accounts from Christian missionaries who tell us about people having to convert to Islam with a pistol behind their head. I do not think that these stories could all be made up. From what I understand there are hundreds if not thousands of accounts of this taken place in Indonesia.

My friend you should really open your eyes to this.

God Bless!
Ray S.

I did not mean to make a personal attack on you but I used this language to make a strong point.

Ray,

I just want to thank you for this post. I can't tell you how much of a problem I've had with this issue. It seemed to me like the Church had contradicted itself, but I was not seeing the context. I really appreciate what you wrote.

God Bless!

Jenny

Since Christian charity demands that you provide me with facts to prove your allegations, I would appreciate it if you would follow the ethics of Jesus. As you know, He was not a slanderer or pathological liar.
Why would you want to be? Do you consider yourself to be superior to the Lord Jesus?

There is no such thing as a forced conversion to Islam. Islam, according to our faith and not your ignorant interpretation of it, must be accepted with conviction and with the intent to follow and practice that faith.

If you do not provide facts to support your claim, then one must assume you are a slanderer and pathological liar, as well as a traitor to the Lord Jesus and the Catholic faith.

If you have proof of your allegations please post them so all of us, Christians and Muslims, can draw our own conclusions based on facts.

I am not the only Muslim reading these posts and, so far, you are not making a very good impression on the Muslim lurkers. None of us would be surprised to know that there are Sulafi Muslims (with their dirty tricks and evil ways), persecuting Muslims and Christians in Indonesia, but they are a tiny minority in a country of Muhammedi Muslims. So let us see the facts and let us not label the majority of Indonesain Muslims falsely. That is the honorable thing to do. I hope most Christians would agree.

"...but I used this language to make a strong point." aRomanCatholic,etc.

Abdur

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

You asked for it:

http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjub/200012/0228.html

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/istwo.html

http://www.catholicprwire.com/headline.cfm?EntryID=276

Abdur, here is a great link from the USA embassy:
http://usembassy.state.gov/tokyo/wwwhgl0002.html

The embassy says, "Since January 1999, anywhere from 5,000 to 8,000 people, Christians and Muslims, have been killed in the Moluccas. Houses of worship from both communities have been destroyed. Over 500,000 people, again, both Christians and Muslims, have been forced to flee in fear of their lives." It goes on to say, ". Beginning in October of last year, there were increasing numbers of allegations of people being forced to convert to Islam or be killed. "

I hope you don't call the USA embassy a liar.

Here is some more links:

http://www.csw.org.uk/CSWnews.asp?item=171


http://www.jubileecampaign.org/news/nov2100.html

http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Igpress/2001-02/windonesia.html

http://www.petersvoice.org/molucca1.htm
This one is a very interesting read it says, "Victims Tell of Violence, Beheading and Forced Conversion"

Thousands forced to convert to Islam,
http://www.indcatholicnews.com/foris.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/112/14.0.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/16/210223.shtml

http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/archives/1999Oct/203oct25,vol.10,no.203txt/oct25d c3.htm

This is a very touching story about a Muslim woman in the Molucca Islands wrote an open letter to publicly express her community's "shame" for the attacks on Christians by Islamic fundamentalists.
http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/0103/ZE010326.htm#3940

http://www.uga.edu/bahai/News/103101.html

BBC says, "Moluccas Christians bombed" later talks about forced conversions
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1057000/1057465.stm


http://www.cwnews.com/browse/2000/12/14453.htm


More Zenit news (We Catholics Trust Zenit)
http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/0101/WA010113.html

The country's Catholic bishops' conference said it is profoundly grieved for what has happened, affirming in a statement that "behind the deftly planned and executed bombings there is a well-organized, highly influential power, possessing a network and funds."

I like this statement "highly influential power, possessing a network and funds" To me that sounds like a rich oil country.


Abdur I can post a lot more if you would like?????


God Bless
Ray S.

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholicGuy ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aRomanCatholicGuy:
[QB]Abdur,

You asked for it:
USA embassy:

The embassy says, "Since January 1999, anywhere from 5,000 to 8,000 people, Christians and Muslims, have been killed in the Moluccas. Houses of worship from both communities have been destroyed. Over 500,000 people, again, both Christians and Muslims, have been forced to flee in fear of their lives." It goes on to say, ". Beginning in October of last year, there were increasing numbers of allegations of people being forced to convert to Islam or be killed. "


I will give you credit: you did produce some facts.

But this is old news to me. I assumed you were reporting incidences of mass slaughter as current events. I am sorry for misreading your intent.

I realize now that you are not labeling Islam as a terroristic religion because of the actions of a few, especially the few of one country; considering there are forty-six Islamic countries ( and many countries with Muslim minorities) such an assumption would certainly be absurd.


I know of some Muslims who try to demonize Christianity with their variety of cock-eyed logic:

For example:

All Crusaders were Christians.

All Crusaders were terrorists.

Therefore, all Christians are terrorists.

Well, that is obviously fallacious and absurb thinking(?). But it is the same lunatic "logic" that some Christians and non-Christians assume is true about Muslims.

One day, maybe (but I doubt it), they will wake-up to reality.

Insh'allah..insh'allah.

[Sorry for digressing. Back to Indonesia.]


But the facts (as recorded in your posts) speak for themselves. The Moluccan tragedy is an isolated event that is an aberration, and not the norm is Indonesia.

Let us be grateful that the Moluccas are only a small part of Indonesia.

Unfortunately, the Moluccan islands have a long history of producing terrorists, both Muslim and Christian. Do you remember the Moluccan National Lieberation Front ( a so-called "Christian" independence and terrorist group) and their hijacking/hostage taking of a passenger train in Europe during the '70's, I believe?

You also have correctly stated that thousands of Muslims have also been murdered by Christian gangs who have also destroyed mosques. As your post states, both Muslims and Christians are guilty of atrocities. We can also happily note that the report of the US Embassy reports that the incidences occured three to four years ago. That is the good news, if there can be any good news relative to this criminal activity.

Let us hope those who live for peace will continue to make progress in overcoming Muslim and Christian gang warfare. (If you follow the money trail, you will see that many of these gangs have no interest in religion; the violence is all about money and power.)


We can only thank God that the Indonesian authorities are pressing the attack against these Muslim and Christian gangs and are trying to control a very volatile situation.

I have also read accounts of Christians saving Muslims from slaughter by Christian terrorists.

The majority of believers on both sides are good people, uncorrupted by the madness of the minority.

I retract my statements questioning your character. You are a gentleman and a true follower of Christ.

God is our only refuge.

Abdur

The Muslim Peace Fellowship: Supported by millions of devout Muslims

www.mpfweb.org

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

We should not stop at Ind. what about Egypt?

For example, the persecuted Coptic Church
http://www.copts.net/descrimination.asp

CNN reports, "Coptic Christians in Egypt blame police for town's violence"
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/01/28/egypt.alkoshe.clash/

CNN again reports, "4 Muslims charged with killing Christians in Egypt religious rioting"
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/01/06/egypt.violence/

Of course, we know these people are probably free now.

Time Magizine reports, "Complaints of growing religious and political bias in Egypt cause anxiety among Coptic Christians"
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/intl/article/0,9171,1107990118-19405,00.html

Human Rights Watch reports, "In another case, the Sohag Criminal Court sentenced Sourial Gayed Ishaq, a Coptic Christian, to three years in prison under articles 160 and 161 of the Penal Code for insulting Islam. He had reportedly made offensive remarks in public about Islam after sectarian violence broke out between Muslims and Christians in his village, al-Kusheh, on December 31, 1999."
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/egypt.html

The article gets in more detail. Basically, Egypt is persecuting Christians.

Here is a great story, "A new human rights report finds that Egypt's ancient Coptic Christians are persecuted by radical Islamic groups and at times by local police and other security officials and they are discriminated against and have their freedom to worship hampered by the Egyptian Government."
http://www.wlo-usa.org/News/Meast/freedom_house_3_31_99.html

Here is a wonderful article you might like to read Abdur. The title speaks for itself, "THE OPPRESSION OF MIDDLE EAST CHRISTIANS:
A FORGOTTEN TRAGEDY"
http://www.foigm.org/IMG/phares1.htm

How about this one Abdur, "Religious Persecution Continues In Egypt"
http://www.atour.com/news/international/20000531m.html

Amnesty International reports, "Tourists and Christians, as well as government officials, state security officers, policemen and prison officers have been the main targets of the armed political groups. In one incident, on 5 March 1994, an attack on a boat claimed the life of a German tourist. Six days later, five Copts, members of the ancient Christian Church of Egypt, were shot dead outside the a Coptic monastery by armed gunmen."
http://www.amnesty-volunteer.org/usa/mideast/reports/egypt.html


Next we should study how Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Sudan, Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan, Afganistan, Jorda, etc... Persecute Christians. For example, it is a crime punishable by death to convert from a Muslim to a Christian in Saudia Arabia (Praise be Mohammed - Right?)

Praised be Allah!

Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem

La ilaha ill Allah

As you point out, only a tiny minority of Islamic states (out of the forty-six or so) continue the dirty of work of the past and continue to persecute Christians, Muslims, and persons of other or no faiths.

As you also point out, it is only a tiny minority of radical Egyptian Muslims who are behind the violence committed against the Coptic community and the greater Muslim community as well. As your reports also indicate, these radicals do not distinguish between Muslims and Christians, but persecute both with the same intensity of hatred. These Islamic terrorists have a great deal in common with the Christian terrorists of Indonesia, who also persecute and murder both Muslims and their fellow Christians. (Timor militias and others.) Evil certainly knows no ethnic or religious boundaries.

But we can be grateful that these countries are only a minority within Islam and we should be grateful to God that the vast majority of Muslim states have moved or are moving beyond the oppressive practices of the past.

In God's good time, the reforms Muslims strive for will also come to Egypt and Saudi Arabia. As more and more Europeans and Americans, the children of the Enlightenment, continue of convert to Islam (34,000 Americans have converted to Islam since 9/11), you will see gradual changes within these oppressive regimes as this new blood gives new life to the Islamic world and forces these oppressive regimes to confront the realities of the 21st century.

Thousands of persons of the western tradition are converting to Islam yearly. They will bring with them their "reforming ways" and will continue to change the face of Islam where it needs to be changed. And we should not become pessimistic and assume that the Chistian terrorist groups of Indonesia and Serbia are beyond redemption. There is hope even for them.

Thank you for your posts. They remind those of us who are Muslims of how far we have come in the reform of the Islamic Ummah.

The Muslim Ummah is 1,200,000,000 strong (the total population of the Islamic countries you have listed where there is persecution of Christians and Muslims comprises only 17% of the world Islamic population), and the Muslim Ummah is rapidly growing, with a high birth rate and thousands of converts per year adding to our numbers. We will overwhelm the anti-Islamic terrorist forces who have defamed Allah and Islam, just as our Afghan Muslim brothers and sisters have. The tiny handful of evil doers who have tried their diabolical best to bully and terrorize Muslims and others have met their match in a reinvigorated Islam that refuses to be blackmailed by the anti-Islamism of imposters, like Osama ben Laden and the corrupt Saudi dynasty and their Wahhabi clerics, who have severed themselves from Islam and God.
And we do not demonize Christians as terrorists because of the evil deeds of Christian terrorist groups. No normal person would do such a thing, Christian or Muslim.


Keep up the good work and may Allah continue to bless you. You confirm our Islamic faith and make us strong in our devotion to it. Mohammed be praised!


Abdur

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

   
MSNBC STAFF AND WIRE REPORTS    WASHINGTON, Jan. 28 —


 President Bush met at the White House Monday with Afghan interim leader Hamid Karzai, and pledged a strong alliance to help rebuild the ravaged country and create a new Afghan military.  
          
 
      Karzai is 'a determined leader, [whose] government reflects the hopes of all Afghans for a new and better future.'
— PRESIDENT BUSH
       IN A PRESS CONFERENCE at the White House, Bush warmly praised Karzai as "a determined leader, [whose] government reflects the hopes of all Afghans for a new and better future — a future free from terror, free from war and free from want."
       The president said the United States will work closely with peacekeeping forces to rebuild Afghanistan and create a new army and police force.
       "The United States will continue to be a friend of the Afghan people, in all the challenges that lie ahead," Bush said.

LATEST DEVELOPMENTS
THE WAR • Raid kills al-Qaida in Kandahar hospital • Bush announces Afghan alliance, pledges to help rebuild nation's military • Bush says detainees are not POWs • Complete coverage THE HOME FRONT • WP: Pentagon plans homeland command • Poll: Women offer more support for defense • Next steps for John Walker Lindh • Complete coverage        Karzai also expressed optimism about the countries' alliance. "Afghanistan is a good partner. ... And I'm sure that the future of the two countries will be a good and wonderful relationship," he said.
       "Afghanistan does need help in reconstruction, does need help in the rebuilding of its national army" Karzai said. "I assure you, Mr. President, that Afghanistan, with your help ... will be strong and will stand in victory on its own feet. We will not allow terrorism to return to it."
       
FLAG-RAISING CEREMONY
       Monday morning, Karzai took part in a ceremony raising the Afghan flag at the newly reopened Afghan embassy in Washington.
       "This flag is raised not without costs," Karzai said, "without the costs of having struggled for many years, without the costs of having lost so many lives in order to have a free, sovereign and good Afghanistan — an Afghanistan without the presence or threat of terrorism. ... The Afghans share the pain [of terrorism] with the American people; they have shared the same pain.
       "I'm thankful to the American people, to the government, for giving us this opportunity, for helping to rebuild this embassy. ... [The hope is that] the partnership of the American-Afghan people will be forever."
       Earlier Monday, Karzai said he would welcome U.S. participation in the multinational peacekeeping force in his nation, and in its deployment beyond the capital, Kabul.
       "The people I've met over the past month ... almost all of them have asked me to ask the international security forces to go to the other parts of the country," Karzai said on NBC's "Today."
       "If we need them at any time to be there in the rest of the country, we will ask for it," he said. "And if the United States can be there as part of that multinational force, it's welcome."


       Karzai also will tour the Pentagon with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and will be an honored guest during Bush's State of the Union speech on Tuesday.
       
HISTORIC VISIT
       Karzai is the first Afghan leader to go to Washington since ex-king Mohammed Zaher Shah met with President Kennedy in September 1963.
       His aides said his plans would include a request to Bush that U.S. troops remain on Afghan soil to continue their battle against the al-Qaida terrorist network and the hard-line Taliban militia, which sheltered Osama bin Laden and his forces until it was pushed from power.
       "We want the operation to continue as long as needed, and until the danger from them and their terrorist presence is no longer felt," Yosuf Nooristani, spokesman for the leader of the six-month interim government, told Reuters.
       
TOP TREATMENT
       Karzai's foreign minister, Abdullah, has been in Washington for several days, working with White House aides to prepare for a smooth visit. Abdullah, who uses only one name, had meetings Friday with top officials, including an unexpected 15-minute session with Rumsfeld.


       Abdullah's talks with Rumsfeld, as well as with Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Condoleezza Rice, the National Security Adviser, primarily concerned how to secure peace throughout Afghanistan.
       
IMPROVING COMMUNICATION
       Karzai, who fought against the Taliban and then traded battle fatigues for a leader's mantle, has erupted into the world of global diplomacy as he leads the rough-hewn government in the massive task of rebuilding Afghanistan.


       After more than two decades of war, Afghanistan is in dire need of nonpolitical military and police forces. Though the interim government — along with local warlords — have begun to train new recruits, there remains a shortage of skilled soldiers and arms.
       Karzai, who speaks fluent English and has strong ties to the United States, has more on his agenda.
       Though the United States has already pledged about $300 million, as part of a package of pledges from international donors totaling about $4.5 billion to rebuild Afghanistan, Karzai — a member of the majority Pashtun ethnic group — is likely to seek more money.
       
'SENTIMENTAL' TRIP
       In an interview with Newsweek magazine, Karzai downplayed any potential disputes over international aid. "The U.S. has already helped us by announcing $296 million of help to Afghanistan, so basically this is a sentimental trip," he told Newsweek.
       The sentimental aspect of the trip is also highly symbolic for a new leader who spent time in the United States. The Karzai family owns restaurants in Baltimore, San Francisco and Cambridge, Mass.
       
       
FLOWERS FOR AMERICA
       Karzai's schedule includes an address to the local Afghan community in Washington, meetings with House and Senate leaders, a keynote speech at the World Economic Forum — which has been moved this year from Davos to New York City — and a ceremony at the site of the World Trade Center.
       In an interview with Newsweek, he placed special emphasis on the visit to Ground Zero: "I'm coming to the U.S. to go to New York to take flowers to the Twin Towers, and tell the American people that we have tremendous sympathy for them," he told the magazine.
 

Abdur,

I'm sure Karazi will be a good leader. I sense he is a good man.

And someone should tell your Muslim brothers in Afganistan to watch out for the US help as a few years pass by... because about that time they'll be trying to push the Afganistan government into implementing population control policies i.e. legalized abortion.

Maximus,

I heard that legalised abortion has already been brought to Afghanistan...didn't take very long, did it?

I stumbled upon this bit of information. Unfortunately, there is no date, so, I do not know if this is the current law.* * *
 
AFGHANISTAN. Penal Code.
Chapter Four. Abortion


Article 402. A person who intentionally causes abortion of a human fetus by beating or any other harmful means shall be sentenced to long imprisonment not exceeding seven years.


Article 403.
(1) A person who causes abortion by means of drugs or otherwise, even though the act has been accomplished with the consent of the pregnant woman, shall be sentenced to medium imprisonment or shall be fined an amount not less than twelve thousand Afghanis and not exceeding sixty thousand Afghanis.
(2) If the drugs have been administered by mistake, the offender shall be sentenced to short imprisonment or shall be fined an amount not exceeding twelve thousand Afghanis.


Article 404.
(1) If the person committing the act of abortion is a medical doctor, surgeon, pharmaceutist, or a nurse, the offender shall be sentenced to the maximum anticipated punishment for the crime.
(2) If the persons, specified under the above paragraph, commit the act of abortion for the purposes of saving the life of the mother, the offender shall not be punished.


Article 405. A pregnant woman who, cognizant of the repercussions of the act, deliberately uses drugs or other means or allows someone else to apply these means to her, as a result of which abortion takes place, shall be sentenced to short imprisonment or shall be fined an amount not exceeding twelve thousand Afghanis.


Article 406. Initiating an act of abortion shall not be deemed punishable.
* * *
 
If many Afghani women were raped by the Taliban and al-Qaidi terrorists, it very well could be that many of them could be seeking abortions.

But that is merely speculative on my part.

Abdur

Abdur,

I wish I had your Optimism about the future. It is my belief (I can back it up) that ALL Muslim nations persecute Christians. Although, the persecution may come from a few, the governments of those nations are not doing anything to stop the few. I pray for a day when ALL Muslims will see the errors of their ways and return to the True faith the Catholic/Orthodox Church and the True God the Blessed Trinity as told in the Bible.

One day I hope we can start building Christian Churches in Saudia Arabia and bring the Good News to the people of Mecca! Praise Jesus Christ!

God Bless
Ray S.

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

UPDATE! "Pakistani Militants Claim To Have Kidnapped American Journalist"

We should all pray for this man and that he returns to his family safely!

http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,325833-412,00.shtml

Dear Abdur Islamovic:

Hello my friend.

My heart is with my Muslim neighbors. I have studied early Eastern and Mid-Eastern culture for many years in order to understand the context of the Jewish and Christian scriptures. As you might guess, this also gives me perspective on the rise of Islam. I am aware of the trials that God’s Providence puts our Muslim brothers through. As history marches on (and no man can stop it) cultures rise and fall and change like waves on the shore.

Dead fish float down stream. It is easier for a man to misunderstand someone not like himself, than it is to try to understand. I understand that the first rule of Islam is to love God and the second is the brotherhood of man.

In two weeks, I will be attending Mosque for the first time.

I am Roman Catholic, I also attend Orthodox Liturgy when I can, and I also have the goal to attend Synagogue this year.

There is but One God. But man uses many languages and so the face of God appears differently to men according to their culture - in as much as His Providence cares for all men ever created.

Mention me to God in your prayers… that I may be a good representative of Jesus whom God has seen fit to have me follow… and I shall pray for you that your dedication to Islam shine in the way God wishes.

There is nothing that fills my heart more than to stand with my Jewish and Muslim brothers and together, raise silent hearts to the unknowable nature of God who created us - that same unknowable nature of the Father of us all.

-ray

Dear Ray,

Well, if that's what you think about Muslims and Jews, the only thing I can say is . . .

God bless you ever so richly!

Alex

There is nothing more dangerous than a cornered and wounded animal.

These terrorists know that their days are numbered.

Expect more of these cowardly acts.

Abdur

Orthodox Catholic,

You said, "Well, if that's what you think about Muslims and Jews, the only thing I can say is . . ."

Did I EVER say anything about JEWS? Did I? NO I DID NOT! I would appreciate an apology! My opinion of Muslims is based on FACTS not Fiction! I have respect for Muslims but I do not think their Church is from God.

As far a Jews go they are children of God and we should respect them. Israel belongs to the Jews and any Jew can be a friend of mine. Unfortunetly, the Qu'ran forbids Muslims from being friends to Christians when it says, "Do NOT take Christians and Jews for friends". Therefore, I am afraid I can never befriend a real Muslim.

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

Mor E. & Abdur, it would surprise me if legalized abortion was brung into Afaginstan so quickly. But then I suppose stranger things have happened.

Abdur,

Answer this one question for me please. If these actions are done by a few Muslim extermist then why is it law in Saudia Arabia that if you convert from Islam to Christianity you can be put to death? This law is on most of the books of the Muslim nations. How can a few be responsible when the countries laws are terriorist?

Do you think it is right if a Muslim man thinks Christianity is correct that He should be put to death? It has happened many times.

Dear RC@work,

Did I EVER say anthing to you about this? I was simply commenting to what Ray wrote, plain and simple.

I have not been following this ecumenical thread at all of late, so I don't even know what was said before Ray's post to which I responded.

If, in any way, what I said to Ray, reflected badly or hurtfully on you, I certainly apologise and beg your forgiveness in Christ.

But I had not intention of doing ANYTHING like that, nor do I think I ever have on this Forum.

I am guilty of a lot of things, but not that.

Please accept my apology and my assurance that I will stay away from this thread for good.

Alex

Orthodox Catholic,

I am sorry too! It is confusing 4 me because my name is Ray and well you get it...

Hello to you, dear friend and servant of God.

Thank you for your gentle words.

I would love to pray for you and with you.

Rhetorical "jihad" is nothing more than the striving of the ego; the obsession with winning and putting the next fellow in his place. I hate myself when I get involved in these long-winded sparring matches. What can I do? God's will be done.

On the other hand, prayer is sweet surrender; the putting aside of the ego; and a service one can dedicate to God for man. Prayer is the great release and letting go of ego.

I love it.

Peace and tranquility,

Abdur

Dear RC@work,

Oh, I see how things got crossed, my Friend!

But in any case, "everyone loves Raymond" - both of you!

Alex

Dear Abdur,
Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim

And what about me, Friend, what about me?

Salaam Alekum,

Alex

There is the law on the books, and there is the law as it is actually practiced. I try not to confuse the two.

Suadi Arabia, as far as know, does practice the sharia, or the conservative Islamic law that you cite.

However, you are wrong in thinking that the majority of Islamic nations practice the sharia, and that is one of the complaints of the terrorists and radicals. Because most Islamic countries do not practice the Islamic law according to their standards, they consider us apostates.

I believe they will find themselves complaining for many years to come, since most Islamic states do not adhere "letter for letter" to the shariah, but either do not practice it or practice it in a modified form.

I am over fifty and I have never heard of a Muslim actually being executed for converting to Christianity, not in this day and age. But I suppose it has happened. However, it must not be a common practice.

I certainly would have no stomach for the practice and I believe the majority of Muslims would agree with me. Truth is, the majority of Muslims are not radicals or extremists. They have better things to do with the lives God has given them than to waste them on lunacy.

As it says in the Quran, life is sacred.

Abdur

Dear Alex,

I took it for granted that you knew you were my chosen brother.

On the other hand, never take your best friend for granted!

Thank you for reminding me.

Abdur

Dear Abdur,

Thank you for your kindness and for the privilege of conversing with you on this Forum.

In case you are interested, the iconographer Robert Lentz has done an icon of Jallaludin Rumi on his Bridgebuilding Icons site.

God bless,

Alex

Abdur,
Salamat rubbina Yasou'yettikoon alayka

First, I would like to quote what you said:

"I am over fifty and I have never heard of a Muslim actually being executed for converting to Christianity, not in this day and age. But I suppose it has happened. However, it must not be a common practice."

Ya azzizzy(Dear friend),
You are not the only Muslim that has blindness and deaf ears when it comes to Muslims converting to Christianity. This tends to be unthinkable in Islam and amongst the Muslims at large because they truly believe they have the golden eggs. I know personally people who have left Islam and they have spoken of the dangers that have threatened & discriminated their lives. However, they could not live in an Islamic society where they are the minority. You and I know why. As I have said in previous threads there is a mindset in Islam that is a potential danger. It may not be manifest amongst those who are pacificists but the overwhelming majority are in agreement in oppostition to pacifism. Your brand of Islam, Sufism, is not that prevalent to make any kind of impact on the rest of Islam. History has shown us that. Sufists are a persecuted if not discriminated bunch in the Islamic world. The majority of Muslims do not buy into Sufism because they will tell us that it is not practical and it's a soft-mushy-pacifist type of religion. I guarantee you that your Sufism will not find acceptance amongst the majority of Muslims, Sunni & Shia'. They will tell you that converted people are not embracing Sufism but Sunni Islam. Be honest with me, isn't it a fact that converts are embracing Sunni Islam and not Sufism? Also, do you believe that Sunni Islam works in conjunction with Sufism? Do you think that the majority of Islam accepts your denominations way of thinking? You spoke many times that Islam is the world's fastest growing religion which I am not doubting but that says nothing of Sufism.

Going back to what I was saying, the Islamic governments and nations do not make it public practice to reveal Muslim apostates unless they are ready for execution. That my friend is a fact. The Islamic "Final Solution" is to rid of Muslim apostates as mandated in the Quran. The rational behind this is that will hinder the growth & expansion of Islam. The spiritual cancer of the world. It can only be healed & stoped in Jesus' name.

I think that you are not the type of Muslim that is looking for trouble. You seek the truth as we all seek it. We are on a journey until His Kingdom comes. In the Kingdom, there is no war, hatred, discrimination but love. This is the Kingdom we hope to imitate now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Preaching the Kingdom of God was Christ's whole purpose. That was and is the Gospel, the New Testament, the Good News, the Injeel, the Bashara. His purpose was not the distribution of books. God knows how many times the Bible was destroyed and come back to life throughout its early years. But your average Muslim does not know this histroy nor do they care. True Christianity is not meant to be judged by people and the writings of nonbelievers but based upon its founder, Christ, and His Church. Tell me Abdur, why does the wast majority of Islam have no regard for early Christian history? I am speaking of the perspective of the Church. Why is not the word "Church" (Kineesa) mentioned in the Quran? I will tell you my perspective: it's because it seeks not to know or to disclose this hidden fact that the life of the Christian is in the Church. It is not soley in the Bible which our dear mislead Protestant brothers espouse. Life for us is in the Body of Christ, the Church which the Quran and Islamic societies have dismissed and ignored for 1400 years. We know what has happened to Christian societies in the midst of Islam especially our Churches. Many were converted into mosques in order to bury our Christian truths. We were the target of their evangelization with and without our approval as it is today and not vice verse. Islam has succeeded in so many ways in trampling over our Churches in order to snuff out our Christian lives by taking over our Churches and forcing us to become Muslims. This has occured over time and currently occurs in places like Eygpt, Sudan, Indonesia, Pakistan, Serbia, etc. Can you be honest and admit to this unfortunate history of ours as Eastern Christians living in the midst of Islam? Attacking our Churches is attacking us and attacking Christ. I would expect some human decency as you would and fellow Muslims but the basic principals of "them against us" has to be tackeled and brought to submission even if that means countering & admiting to harmful Quranic verses which are said to be abrogated. Again, we have the problem of Quranic interpretation and no true authority. Anyways, looking forward to chatting with you.

bil-Maseeh

Abdur,

Rum Orthodox has finally said what I have been trying to find the words to say.

God Bless!

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Islam seems to always start their own problems. I am sorry but I do not have any sympothy for your causes. Islam started the problem in Palestine (everyone knows Israel belongs to the Jews - its in the Bible), Islam revolted against the Russian government so we have the Chechyna terrorist situation today, Islam started the Balkans war. Everywhere I personnaly see Islam I see war. Whether or not it is Iraq vs. Iran, Afaghanstain, Pakistan vs. India, Sudan vs. Christians, Iraq vs. Kuwait, Turkey vs. Greece, Saudia Arabia fighting quite war with money, Palestines vs. Israel, Indonesia vs. Christians, Terriost in the Phillipines (Muslims - probably sponsored by Saudia Arabia) vs. Christians, etc... there is war, war, war. I am sorry Abdur but I associate Islam with War. You know the fastest growing religion in the USA prisons is Islam. Go Figure?

Thank God you have admitted to the historical fact that Christianity is a violent religion.

I admire your candor.

Peace.

Don't tell your Palestinian Catholic or Orthodox friends that "Palestine belongs to Israel." I,like you, support the Jews against the Palestinians.

As Jesus said, "there will be wars and rumors of war," and throughout history, Christendom has been the mother of all warmongers.

Chechyna: It isn't your fault that you are ignorant of her history, but she was a free and independent nation until the Russians invaded in 1786. Like the Poles and Ukrainians, they are deserve to be a free nation once again.

America embraces the New Islam. You are correct about that, since Islam has the ability to move beyond the past.

I am not surprised that you have no sympathy for the Bosnian "cause."

It is not your fault that Christianity is a religion of slaughter and one predicated upon hate.

Thank you for your candor.


And you must have personal reasons for favoring and supporting the slaughter of Muslims in Indonesia by Christians. On the other hand, Christianity is a religion of violence, so why would there be any need for a rationale? I know that you are a devout Roman Catholic, so I must assume this is the position of the Vatican. Likewise for the slaughter of Bosnian Muslims. I am not surprised since the Vatican also encouraged the slaughter and forced conversion of Orthodox Serbs to Roman Catholicism during WWII.

Your posts certainly make a great deal more sense, now.

BTW: I think you should share your thoughts about Islam with President Bush. According to you, it might be a national security issue. And while you are at it, also share your perspective on Bosnia.

Good luck!

Abdur

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

I personally have a problem with this statement. Yes, Israel belonged to the Jews way back when. That's true. And then the Muslims came in. Now that the Jews want their land back, the Muslims are making problems. Is it really that simple?

Perhaps it is, or perhaps I'm just ignorant...

But before the Jews came to that area from Egypt, it belonged to other groups of peoples, right? Did they not have to take the land from others, even by the use of force? And yet we don't say that the Jews started the problem there, and that everyone knows that the Canaanites (or some other people) really own the land...personally, I'm REALLY hoping that the Canaanites decide to come back and take their home back...we'll see how accomodating everyone is.

Or we don't say too often: "White men started the problem that is North America (everyone knows America belongs to the Native Americans - any history student knows that)." We like to keep ourselves away from things like that.

It's a selective view of history, that doesn't take into account all sides, that causes problems.

Mor Ephrem,

First let me state the obvious my views are my views and are not always the views of the Church. Now with that said, I my beliefs in this matter fall more into the fundies view of Israel. If we believe in the Bible and the Bible says God gave Israel to the Jews then NO ONE on the face of the Planet has any right to argue with God.

Yes, Mor Ephrem I agree with you N.America belongs to the Indians. We should give more land and money to the Native Americans as payment for the abuses of the Europeans.

Abdur, Islam was founded by the sword and by sword as I see it they live. Islam is like a road map to the third world. Many horrible acts Christians have done throughout time were as re-actions to the Islamic world. However, you show me a horrible act done by the Christian community and I will show 2 or 3 more done by the Muslims.

No religion is perfect because religion is made up of men and men are sinners. With that said we must look at the core beliefs with of each religion to judge which one came from God. Christianity says, "Love your neighbor as yourself". Islam says, "Do not take a Christian and Jews as friends because they are friends among themselves. Surely, God will judge the unbelievers". I think I made the right decision in my choice of Religion.

I wish you peace Abdur

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

There is no need for you to apologize for the violence that is an inherent part of Christendom. If you have been taught to hate by your religion...so be it.

Your understanding of the Qur'anic verse is literal and taken out of context. You must read what precedes and follows the verse to understand it. Also, you seem to have forgotten my post on the Anglican-Muslim covenant, where the Christian and Muslim participants (including conservative Muslim scholars) speak of their personal friendship for one another. Many...many...Muslims have non-Muslim friends...and even spouses. I don't know if you are married, but a good marriage certainly is predicated on good friendship.


Any objective reader would deduce from your posts that it is not violence that you are against...as long as that violence is committed by Christians against non-Christians, or "heretics."

Maybe you have never read the history of post-Constantinian Christianity, but it was spread by the sword more than by the "spirit" of holy missionaries. That is the lesson that Muhammed learned from Christianity: that religion can be spread by the sword with no apologies required.

And over the centuries, not only was Christianity spread by the sword, but sustained by the sword as well.


It is a very...very painful experience, but sometimes it is good to see things from the other side's point of view. But you have to have a strong faith and a certain amount of emotional maturity to face that difficult task. Do you think I enjoy admitting to the faults of Islam? No, I do not. But I know God demands that I do. If I were a Christian, I would do the same.

"Be not afraid!"

Abdur

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

aRomanCathoic@Work,

I to have a problem with your interpretation of the Palestinians. While I in the past made statments about Islam and the Jews - I should have been more clear and made sure I excluded the Palestinians from that. Infact sometimes I feel like picking up a rifle and going over to the Holy Land to help the Muslim Palestinians fight against the Israelies.

Israel was inhabited by the Palestinians long before Europian Jews arrived there. And While I support the Jews return to their native land, I don't support their inhuman treatment of the Palestinians. Which by the way is a sort of treatment the Jews always claim the Christians (Catholics in particular) did to them. It would be best if both sides would accept each other, but there needs to be mutual respect and justice for that to occur.

Might I add that one of the 4 cardinal virtues is justice. And as a catholic you are charged to be committed to justice not literal Biblical banter. The Protestants you follow on this support the Jewish state because their Protestant American country has intrest over in that region. The Protestant didn't seem to take the Bible to literaly about the Jews being Gods chosen people when they were turned away in boat, trying to escape Nazi persecution. I bet your same Protestants can find quotes in the Bible alluding to the United States involvement in end time revelations - of course the US would also be the harborer of the just.

Tolerance Battles Suspicion Among Bosnia's Serbs

By Daria Sito-Sucic

Sarajevo, Bosnia (Reuters) - There are Sarajevo Serbs who say a
mixture of church bells and calls to prayer at the mosque are music
to their ears.


For Serbs like these, the reopening of a museum of artifacts
mingling the symbols of many faiths at Sarajevo's Orthodox Church
complex, heralds a rebirth of ethnic harmony.


But just as a decade ago, on the eve of the war that ripped Bosnia
apart, their hopes for tolerance have been confronted with suspicion,
distrust and outright death threats from hard-liners among their
ethnic kin.


Multi-ethnic has been branded a charade by the Serbian Orthodox
Church, reflecting deep skepticism among Serbs over whether they
should live together with Bosnia's other peoples.


Most Bosnian Serbs now live in the nationalist-dominated Serb
Republic, a region of Bosnia from which most Croats and Muslims were
expelled during the 1992-95 war. Sarajevo, Bosnia's capital, lies on
the boundary of the Republic and the Muslim-Croat federation.


Sarajevo Serb visitors to the museum at the church said they were as
proud as ever of the city's diverse heritage.


"This means the continuation of a joint life, a general
reconciliation without which there can be no progress for any
people," said Dana, a middle-aged Sarajevo Serb, dressed in her
best fur coat.


Known these days for the vicious 44-month siege it suffered at the
hands of Bosnian Serb forces, Sarajevo was once renowned as a place
where Muslims, Catholics, Orthodox Christians and Jews lived together
in unique harmony.
Tourist guides described the city as a "Small Jerusalem."


The museum houses artifacts donated by Serbs to the church under
centuries of Ottoman Turk rule, including icons, tapestries, books,
manuscripts, and silver and gold objects made by Bosnian craftsmen,
most of them Muslims.


The church's old wooden altar door was stylized with oriental
ornaments under Islamic influence, and Jewish stars of David have
been carved in wood together with Christian crosses.


"I think this is an important element in understanding the
multicultural life that everyone talks about so much today and which
has had always existed here," said Belgrade conservationist Anika
Skovran, whose team restored the museum.


Mirko Pejanovic, head of the Serb Civic Council gathering
Bosnian-oriented Serbs, said that the reopening of the museum had
been a great joy for Sarajevo Serbs and the Orthodox church.
"With this, the city of Sarajevo has completed its cultural
inheritance, cultural tradition and its multiethnic and multicultural
being," said Pejanovic, formerly a Serb member of Bosnia's wartime
multiethnic presidency.


But moderates like Pejanovic are still confronted by Serbs who
cannot accept that some of their kin are ready to live alongside
other peoples.


In early January, a self-styled "Serb terrorist organization" sent
death threats to Pejanovic and nine other Sarajevo Serbs who advocate
co-existence.

The previously unknown group was named after Gavrilo Princip, a
Bosnian Serb who assassinated Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand in
1914, sparking World War One.
Those targeted by the threats, including the only Orthodox priest
who stayed in Sarajevo during the war, were denounced as "Muslim
servants" and "Serb traitors."

In another sign of the depth of the rift, the Orthodox church has
threatened to withdraw altogether from the Muslim-Croat federation
that makes up half of postwar Bosnia.
"The Serb Orthodox Church does not want to participate in the
creation of a fake multiethnic image of Bosnia and Herzegovina," its
figurehead Metropolitan Nikolaj said in a statement.
He refused to send a televised Christmas message to Orthodox
believers in the federation, and forbade a televised broadcast of the
Christmas prayer.


But among the Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim and Jewish symbols at the
medieval church, optimism reigned. Dana spent the whole 1992-95 war
in the besieged city alongside Muslims and Croats, under fire from
her ethnic kin.
"Hatred cannot win victory for any nation," she said.
* * *

Christ is in our Midst!

The problem with our friend Abdur and the rest of his childish polemics is that it contains very little truths. The man has tunnel vision to the revealed evils promoted by Islam and his version of Islam does not count. Killing done by anyone despite the religious affiliations is an evil act. His Muhammed was blatantly guilty of this but his brainwashed followers find ways for justifications. Islam has always justified killings whether they be recorded in the Quran, Hadiths, or the Sirats. Early Islam developed upon the usage of the sword and jihads. The rhetoric ploy of Abdur is to convince us that Christianity is evil and that we hate each other. I don't understand why he continues to try to embarrass & frustrate us. I know from experience that these are unsubstantiated Islamic polemics to instill in us doubts and that he has the true Faith. His techniques are manipulative and quite immature. There are no doubts that Christians have done unfortunate killings to one another and to a host of other peoples. However, this does not in no way represent the beliefs of Christ and His True Church. This does not represent the beliefs of the ancient Orthodox Patriarchates. I would like Abdur to answer me one question: name me one Orthodox Patriarchate that has sanctioned the killing of another people? The Western Church (Roman Catholic) does not count. Permit me to say that I think everyone has had enough of Abdur's propagandas & deceptive rhetorics. References to "Christian gangs" has no place or meaning within our Patriachates. This sort of speech stems from the prime center of the Evil One. The Evil One has deluded and innoculated both non-believing Christians & non-Christians such as Abdur. I wonder if the informed Abdur has ever spoken, heard or read about Patriarch Pavle of Serbia during the violent times in the Slavic lands.
Persecution is in the eye of the Evil One and it is obviously expressed in Abdur's posts against the Arabs, Christians & Muslims, with Zionist tendencies. The Islamic Slavs have a horrific history to what they did against their very own Christian Slavs. There is no justification for this evil or vice verse. No true Church will encourage such evil. Abdur believes in making unfounded claims and lies to advance his Islamic version of his unworthy cause. Abdur is easily mislead by the Evil One because he is not in Christ and within the true Church. True Christianity is what Abdur wants us to believe. Abdur has indirectly proclaimed himself a bishop. Where do you think he gets this nonsense? Hint: In the arabic they refer to Muhammed as Sayidna. Sayidna is the title of a bishop. Every Muslim thinks he or she is some brilliant gnostic scholar that has us Christians figured out. They know how to recite from memory the heresies about Christ and that our Holy Scriptures are corrupted but then again some claim that Muhammed is predicted in them. "Sayidna" Abdur is a pontiff who loves pontificating his distorted knowledge about the true Christain Faith which he knows very little about. He has some knowledge of atrocities committed in the name of religion to which he ascribes to true Christianity.

Abdur seek the Light not your distorted agenda of what you think is right. Islam is not right but a historical error without a responsible hiearchy unlike true Christianity.

So Islam says the Bible is corrupt. Ok I have had enough of that garbage. Abdur we have pieces of the Bible dating back to the 1st Century and they match the Bible of Today. Dont believe me?

Go here and see for yourself:
http://alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Egerton/egerton-pictures.html

You are correct about the evils of Islam, just as I am correct about the evils of Christianity.

There must be a better pathway to God that a seeker can find and embrace.

It is clear from the historical record that neither Christianity or Islam can lead the human race in its quest to find peace, love, and integrity, in this world or the world to come. Eventually, the human race with evolve to the point where it will see both Christianity and Islam for what they truly are, and will reject both. Then the pathway to God will be cleansed of the violence and hatred which comprises the foundation of both religions.

One day, all good and decent people will recognize that the greatest and most pleasing service one can offer to the God of Love and Tolerance will be joining in the holy war to bring about the demise and end of these two violent and blood-drenched gods of war known as Christianity and Islam.

May that day come soon.

God shall prevail over all evil doers---including the twin-brother butchers, Christ and Muhammed.

Whoa, Nelly...

God shall prevail over...Christ?

"How can Satan cast out Satan?"

:p

You know that Satan is a liar, so Christ (a/k/a Satan) was lying because he knew you would be easy to deceive.

Islam was spread by the sword, and I have problems with some of the Character traits of Muhhamed. And do not mean to say that he was evil. But I do reject him coming in the the name of Christ (God. And let that also extend to the humanity of Christ - so those that think of Christ as the prophet).

It is however true to say as Abdur does, that christianity was spread by the sword. Christianity followed the Roman legions and it also stood safely behind the monastic knights and forwarded it's advance as the monk knights forward their advance. This spread in the Western frontiers of the quite savage illiterate tribes of Europe can be compared in many ways to the way the Church followed the Europeans into the "New World" as for instance the Cross following behind the sharp edge of the Spanish toledo. Now as for Europe this turned out well because all though blood was shed, it ultimately advanced the human course in away in which ultimately less blood was shed. I say that tribalisim causes far more blood shed and leaves the travel of humans far less safe then nationalism (which is just like a bigger version of tribalism) and that the greatest phase of humanity is to be seen yet - that being one world government. But for this to happen wars will be fought because there will be some nations that will rail against this expansion. And I assure you the Cross of Rome will follow behind this new expansion. So I guess you could say in the new era to come the Cross will folow behind the M-16 and AK47. And I say what'a era!!

All war is not bad war. Sometimes someone must bleed.

...goodnight!

Christ is in our Midst!

Your description of Islam seems to be getting worse by the post. Referring to Christ and your Muhammed as "twin-brother butchers, Christ and Muhammed! You have lost your mind and my respect. There are no evils in true Christianity as in Islam. There are evils committed in the name of Christianity(i.e. Western Crusades). Orthodox Christianity has at least a true apostolic hiearchy. True Christianity and Islam are not on par when it comes to speaking and doing evil. Your Islam and that of many others seeks to put True Christianity on your level. The problem is that you seek false Christianities
to be on par with Islamic atrocities recorded in history so that you don't feel left alone. How many times do I have to refer to the teachings of Christ and that of his True Church? False Christianities are on par with Islam. This is what you are arguing about not true Christianity. As I said before, I would like to know from you which of the ancient Orthodox Patriarchates sanctioned killings and believed in "Just Wars"? Rome does not count.
Last but not least, the true image of Christ is the ultimate way to God our Father. The image of Christ has been revealed in distortions by heretics and heterodoxes. I urge you to seek the true image of Chirst. You will need to know how to separate the sheeps from the wolves.

Matthew
7:15 “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves.19 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered20 from thorns or figs from thistles, are they?21 7:17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad22 tree bears bad fruit. 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 7:20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit.

Acts
20:28 Watch out for106 yourselves and for all the flock of which107 the Holy Spirit has made you overseers,108 to shepherd the church of God that he obtained109 with the blood of his own Son.110 20:29 I know that after I am gone111 fierce wolves112 will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 20:30 Even from among your own group113 men114 will arise, teaching perversions of the truth115 to draw the disciples away after them. 20:31 Therefore be alert,116 remembering that night and day for three years I did not stop warning117 each one of you with tears. 20:32 And now I entrust118 you to God and to the message119 of his grace. This message120 is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Dear, in Christ,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I grow weary of threads that pass the 100 mark, and also of threads that go to five pages. For that reason alone, may I suggest that this thread be closed.

I believe we have crossed a line here in this thread, where in the Byzantine Catholic Forum, we choose always to speak respectfully and correctly of everyones faith.

After a glance at the last few posts, all will clearly see that this rule has been broken. As sad as I am to see the holy name of Christ used without reverence, I will not see the name of any other religious leader profaned. Not because leaders or founders of other religions are mine, but because I extend to them the same courtesy I would hope they would extend to me, and God.

May I respectfully suggest that we have utterly exhausted everything that can be said about the relations of the Christian Church with the world of Islam? The fact that the discussion has degenerated into name calling is evidence that we have nothing good to say. My mother always said; if there is nothing good to say, say nothing.

There are other forums and discussion groups which can be found by a simple search, in which this topic is treated. May I refer everyone there.

In those other places, forum moderators and participants are more knowlegable in the field, and the discussions are more directed. For these reasons I suggest that there is no need to open a "volume three" on this topic here at the Byzantine Catholic Forum. Enough has been said here.

Thank you very much,

Elias, monk

moderator, East and West