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Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129458
03/03/05 11:22 PM
03/03/05 11:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,440
White Plains, N.Y.
Z
Zenovia Offline
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Zenovia  Offline
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Z
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,440
White Plains, N.Y.
Quote
Dear Friends,

So why is Rome so intransigent over this matter?

What's the matter with it?

Alex
Dear Alex,

Within each denomination there are fundamentalists that would cause friction if something is changed. There would also be those that would feel Rome is bowing down to the Orthodox. :rolleyes:

Now I know in the Orthodox Church, we have so, so, many people like this, and any change could easily cause another split. As an example, look at the old calendarists. frown

It takes a while for any change to be accepted, and unfortunately, the priests and bishops, who the people follow, are usually not helpful in that respect. confused

Zenovia

Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129459
03/03/05 11:27 PM
03/03/05 11:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Irondale,AL
Pani Rose Offline
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Pani Rose  Offline
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Posts: 10,930
Irondale,AL
News Flash!

We are actively organizing a grassroots movement consisting of committed individuals who have vowed to neither eat nor sleep until this whole filioque issue has been resolved. Imagine the impact of these countless hungry, tired and irritable people! Extreme measures may also involve - gasp - a prolonged holding of one's breath. We will be heard! This movement follows the (sadly) short-lived "stand on one foot until the primacy of the pope issue is completely resolved" vigil. Some individuals - (EXTREMELY UNBALANCED I hasten to mention) have opted to actually pray daily - mentioning by name all the key spiritual leaders (pope, patriarchs, etc) - West and East. These same "radicals" have resorted to - ha! - reading about the way the undivided church operated in the Scriptures and church fathers. They take "field trips" to other rites and even work together in programs for the poor, etc. They are often seen dialoging on the Byzantine Forumů


biggrin biggrin biggrin
Pani Rose

Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129460
03/04/05 10:04 AM
03/04/05 10:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Ohio, USA
harmon3110 Offline
Grateful
harmon3110  Offline
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Posts: 3,528
Ohio, USA
Quote
Originally posted by Myles:
His Eminence Angelo Cardinal Sodano
Palazzo Apostolico Vaticano
Citta del Vaticano 00120

Ask 'em wink
LOL ! biggrin

--John

Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129461
03/04/05 10:40 AM
03/04/05 10:40 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Connecticut
Father Gregory Offline
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Father Gregory  Offline
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Posts: 1,280
Connecticut
"committed individuals who have vowed to neither eat nor sleep until this whole filioque issue has been resolved..." eek

I'm afraid they're gonna be extremely THIN or dead before this happens...but we can hope otherwise!

I'd rather pray and fast that both East and West begin to understand the language used and the reasons for using the filiogue in the 1st place!

In His great mercy,
+Fr. Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129462
03/04/05 11:03 AM
03/04/05 11:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,884
USA
Alice Offline
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Alice  Offline
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Posts: 10,884
USA
Dear Father Gregory,

Quote
I'm afraid they're gonna be extremely THIN or dead before this happens...but we can hope otherwise!
...thanks for the chuckle, you are TOO funny! :p

Actually, if I am not mistaken, our respective theologians have reached some agreement this past year. It was even written up in the Orthodox Observer. So, I do think that the translational factor of the philioque clause that you speak of is finally being understood.

My husband and I were discussing it the other day over dinner. I mentioned that the Roman Catholic church in Greece is the only place in the Roman Catholic world where the Creed is recited without the filioque...and he responded, "well, ofcourse, since it was added in the West to aid understanding, Greek speakers would not have that limitation/problem because it is in the original language!" He then added, "they are not going to tranlate it from Greek into Latin and then from Latin, back to Greek again!" :rolleyes:

So, it really is unbelievably simple! Even St. Gregory Palamas, the greatest Orthodox theologian ever, explained the procession as the Roman Catholics would understand it.

Ofcourse, 'simple' alludes the Eastern mindset sometimes! LOL! biggrin

In Christ,
Alice

P.S. THAT is why I am so grateful for Orthodox priests like you that give example to truth for truth's sake, and that do not make a big deal out of things that are NOT a big deal. smile

Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129463
03/04/05 11:24 AM
03/04/05 11:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 828
Oxford, UK
Myles Offline OP
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Myles  Offline OP
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Quote
P.S. THAT is why I am so grateful for Orthodox priests like you that give example to truth for truth's sake, and that do not make a big deal out of things that are NOT a big deal.
Amen, Amen!


"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129464
03/04/05 12:49 PM
03/04/05 12:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Connecticut
Father Gregory Offline
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Father Gregory  Offline
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Connecticut
Alice & Myles, Thank you for your kind words. You know where I got a lot of ideas? From a little gem of a book called: Your God Is Too Small by J.B. Philips. I recommend it to EVERYONE...and I would LOVE to have a few Orthodox bishops read it! biggrin But, they're probaly not interested...they have a book of their own called: My God Is Very Tiny . Another one they like: I'm Another God Here . As one of my priest-friends always says, "Oh yeah? Well, if that's the case, then you're a darn poor substitute!" wink God help us all!

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129465
03/04/05 12:53 PM
03/04/05 12:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Connecticut
Father Gregory Offline
Former
Father Gregory  Offline
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Posts: 1,280
Connecticut
P.S. My mom gave me the BEST advice on the morning of my ordination. We arrived at the cathedral and we got out of the car. My dad got my things out of the back and my mother brushed off my cassock and then said to me something I'll never forget: " Now stand up straight and try not to look too pleased with yourself ! "

Thank God for my wonderful parents!

In Him,
+Fr. Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129466
03/04/05 05:28 PM
03/04/05 05:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,531
NW, USA
Porter Offline
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Porter  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,531
NW, USA
Quote
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
" [b]Now stand up straight and try not to look too pleased with yourself ! "

Thank God for my wonderful parents!

In Him,
+Fr. Gregory [/b]
Fr. Gregory,

That sounds like something my mom would say. I especially remember her frequent advice for me not to "ride on my high horse."

She's gone to her 'better place' now for many years...but the words live on... smile

Blessing,

Mary Jo

Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129467
03/04/05 05:29 PM
03/04/05 05:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Connecticut
Father Gregory Offline
Former
Father Gregory  Offline
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Moderator
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,280
Connecticut
P.P.S. Another excellent book (perhaps for Lenten reading) is: The Noonday Devil - Spiritual Support in Middle Age by Fr. Berard Basset, SJ (A Doubleday Image Book).

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129468
03/06/05 05:48 PM
03/06/05 05:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,301
Meriden, CT
R
RayK Offline
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RayK  Offline
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Posts: 1,301
Meriden, CT
Quote
Originally posted by Pani Rose:
[b]News Flash!

Pani Rose
Wonderful! I needed that.

-ray


-ray
Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129469
03/11/05 05:51 PM
03/11/05 05:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,531
NW, USA
Porter Offline
Member
Porter  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,531
NW, USA
Quote
Originally posted by Pani Rose:
[b]News Flash!

We are actively organizing a grassroots movement consisting of committed individuals who have vowed to neither eat nor sleep until this whole filioque issue has been resolved. Imagine the impact of these countless hungry, tired and irritable people! Extreme measures may also involve - gasp - a prolonged holding of one's breath. We will be heard! This movement follows the (sadly) short-lived "stand on one foot until the primacy of the pope issue is completely resolved" vigil. Some individuals - (EXTREMELY UNBALANCED I hasten to mention) have opted to actually pray daily - mentioning by name all the key spiritual leaders (pope, patriarchs, etc) - West and East. These same "radicals" have resorted to - ha! - reading about the way the undivided church operated in the Scriptures and church fathers. They take "field trips" to other rites and even work together in programs for the poor, etc. They are often seen dialoging on the Byzantine Forumů


biggrin biggrin biggrin
Pani Rose [/b]
Magnificent manifesto!!

biggrin wink :p

Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129470
03/14/05 12:47 PM
03/14/05 12:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 641
VA
A
Annie_SFO Offline
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Annie_SFO  Offline
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A
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 641
VA
I had to giggle a little, but my first reaction to your question was to do as my parents did - MARRY each other. (Dad was Roman Catholic; mom Orthodox.) Very enriching religious upbringing for the children. Strict in two slightly different ways! ;-)


Quote
Originally posted by Myles:
Hello forum thanks for having me smile I reverted to Roman Catholicism two years ago after 'discovering' Patristics and I have been waiting for much of that time to say 'thank you' to someone--in addition to Christ Jesus, of course wink The Greek patrimony of the Holy Catholic Church is a jewel that I cherish and it pleases me that it has lost been lost to us in the West. As much as I love and respect Our Sister Churches, the fact that there is disunity between us can makes them feel 'far off'. Believe me when I say I am truly grateful for the existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches, which gives me the ability to say that I as a Roman Catholic am in full communion with the direct heirs of the ancient sees of the east whose teaching has nourished me so well.

I would like to share my feelings in this issue. I feel it greatly enhances the Church's Catholicity to have the Eastern Catholics in union with the Holy See. Nonetheless, I also feel that celebrating the Church Universal's oriental inheritance can be viewed as an affront to the Orthodox. Uniate has taken on a pejorative meaning for many and I fear people might interpret me setting up the Eastern Catholic Churches as alternatives to the Orthodox. Normally when Latin Catholics look East they bypass you, our brothers, and think only of our sisters. I would love Latin rite Catholics to develop the sense that we do have a unity with the Eastern heritage of our faith already. But in doing so I fear that people could interpret my actions as implying the Church already has Catholicity and doesnt need our sister Churches. In a country where only 9% of the people are Catholic Ecumenism is a large issue and moreover since some of my family converted from Protestantism to Ethiopian Orthodoxy this issue is especially pertinent to me.

Does anybody have any suggestions about how one can foster the sense of unity between East and West enjoyed in the Union in place between the Eastern Catholics and Western Catholics without alienating or isolating those orientals not in full communion with the Church of Rome? We have two lungs my brothers but how are we supposed to breathe?

Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129471
03/14/05 12:55 PM
03/14/05 12:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
New England
Peter J Offline
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Peter J  Offline
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Posts: 1,431
New England
I'd like to take an informal survey of ECs on this message board. Two questions:

1. In your parish, what language is the creed said in?

2. Suppose you were to attend a liturgy at a Latin-Rite Catholic parish, in which Charlemange's creed was to be said. What, precisely, would you do? Would you recite the creed but pause while the rest of the congregation said the filioque clause? Or would you remain silent throughout the entire creed? Or would you recite the entire creed including the filioque?

Thanks in advance to all responders.
-Peter.

Re: Two lungs but how to breathe? #129472
03/14/05 05:30 PM
03/14/05 05:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,685
Knoxville, TN
B
byzanTN Offline
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byzanTN  Offline
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B
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,685
Knoxville, TN
In my church the creed is said in English. I long ago stopped worrying about filioque and have decided it's two ways of looking at the same thing. If I am ticked off at the Latins at the particular time, I may stay silent during it. If not, I may say it. biggrin I suspect filioque may be dropped someday.

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