Christos voskrese!

I would like to discuss the situation of the Russian Catholic Church sui iuris.

IMHO, this is simply a new violence against the Eastern Catholics, a new endeavour to latinize this church, which suffered so much.

The methods and procedures are like in the Middle Ages e.g. in Sicilia and Southern Italy - after the death of bishops of Byzantine rite, the "Catholics" not allowed to consecrate successors, but forced a latin bishop for the eparchies. Then no more priests were consecrated too, so people without own priests were forced to go to Latin churches and accept Latin priests. (Other practices as burning Greek books etc. are well known.)

Is not the situation of Russian Catholic Church the same? Rome denies to nominate an exarch or even an administrator and all should be subordinated to Latins.

The excuse is - we want not worsen relationships with Russian Orthodoxy. So we sell our people for the "peace". But even in Western Europe they deny to consecrate Russian Catholic priests. There are some Russian Catholic parishes with priests about 80 years old. No-one can say, this would rise ecumenical problems.

Well, the temptation to latinize the Russian Catholics must be really great. All Russians baptized in the Orthodox Church the were "converted" to the Catholicism, should be of Byzantine rite. May be, 40% or even more of the declared 1 million Catholics in Russia, should be of Byzantine rite. So why this great endeavour against the re-establishment of Russian Catholic Church.

When the Latin administratures had to be changed in dioceses, nobody asked the Orthodox. Why? "It is our right..."

If Russian Catholics want to re-establish the exarchate, "we must consult with the Orthodox Church." The believers do not have any rights (cf. can. 17-20 CCEO).

Here the Latin Church once more let us known, what they think about us - Eastern Catholics. We are not considered as fully Catholic or only as Catholics of the second (third) category (cf. can. 11 CCEO).

andreios
http://grkat.nfo.sk

Christos Voskrese!
Voistinu Voskrese!

Dear Andreios,

You pose an interesting problem, and one which I wonder about. I feel very strongly that Rome treats all its Eastern Catholics as second-class citizens, so to speak, but I am curious as to whether there is a refusal to ordain new priests in the Russian Catholic Rite, or simply a lack of interest in it? I am not familiar enough with the seminary situation there to know. Is there a pool of Russian Catholic seminary graduates that are actively seeking ordination that are being denied such? That would TRULY be a sin of great magnitude!

Gaudior, unsure whether to hope there is a large pool of committed seminarians being spurned by the Pope, or whether to hope that the Pope cares enough about the East, but there are just not enough seminarians of that particular practice (as opposed to, say Ukrainian Catholic, or...)

Refusal. I has a good friend which some years is trying to get to ordination. And he said me, there are several others.

But not only this is the problem. All the Byzantine rite catholics in Russia, that want to be monks, have the only solution - enter in a latin congregation. And they are formed in the latin rite and have no possibility to be formed and ordained in the own rite.

andreios
http://grkat.nfo.sk

Christos Voskrese!
Voistinu Voskrese!

HOW TERRIBLE!

That is indeed a sin.

Gaudior, in prayer that Rome realizes both lungs needed for a healthy church!

That is indeed the way it is. And at the risk of being relegated to the Onion Dome, it is an outrage crying out to Heaven for redress.
Christ is Risen!
Incognitus

Christos Voskrese!

Andreios, you are absolutely right. And refusal is the correct term, as I also know of some who have been turned away, not only for priesthood but diaconate and minor orders (tonsured readers and subdeacons).

This is a complete outrage and a negation of all of the gratuitious language that has been offerred to the Eastern Catholics from Rome. Put your money where your mouth is, as one American saying goes. Do Orientale Dignitas, Orientale Lumen, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Slavorum Apostoli, etc. mean anything? Anything at all?

Any church sui iuris deserves a hierarch simply because of its existence as a church sui iuris. A church without a visible hierarchy isn't really a church at all, is it? Waiting hand and foot on the Latins for your very existence?

Given the sacrifices and martyrdom of great and holy saints like Exarch Leonid (Federov) to precisely establish and maintain a Russian Catholic hierarchy, the situation with the Russian Catholics becomes all the more exasperating and cries out to God for justice.

The only option for monastics is to either go to the Latins or join the Studites of the UGCC, because the Russian Catholics have no hierarch, exarch, etc. who has the authority to erect a monastic foundation. Ludicrous, really, and most tragic.

Dear Diak,

If the Vatican's reasoning here is that the Russian Catholics give offence to the Pat. of Moscow - then perhaps Rome should consider leaving the Russian Catholics alone and putting the Latin Catholics under them!

Alex

Another truly outrageous aspect of it, even if Rome could use the potential ecclesio-political implications to justify its inaction in Russia, is the failure to provide an Exarch for the Byzantine Russians here in the US (which would seem unlikely to evoke much reaction from the MP).

Many years,

Neil

I just don't get it...where's Patriarch..hmmm...whatever...primate or major archbishop Husar in all this? Seems to me he's closer to where the action is...if there are seminarians or lay members that want to be ordained to serve russian rite catholics that Husar would be able to ordain them, incardinate them or whatever in his patriarchate and dispense them to serve the russian rite catholics...

Why always blame Rome? Do we have any initiative? What an attitude to always be waiting for Rome to do something! How sad...

Sorry for the rambling but I just don't get it sometimes.

John

John, it is sort of a canonical chicken and egg enigma. According to the canons, you have to have an eparch or exarch to ordain men for your church sui iuris.

And according to the canons, if you don't have an established eparchy or exarchate, which has to be erected and approved by Rome, you are remanded to the local Roman hierarchy. This in itself is outrageous.

Other bishops, Ukrainian Catholic, Melkite, etc. have historically performed ordinations for the Russian Catholics and "loaned" them back, at least allowing the clergy to belong to and be ordained in a church of their own ritual tradition. Exarch Leonid, for example, was ordained to the priesthood by a Bulgarian Catholic bishop in Constantinople, Mikhail Mirov of blessed memory.

John,

In El Segundo (CA), there's an example akin to that Diak cites. Archimandrite Alexei Smith serves both the Melkite community of St. Paul's Mission and the Russian parish of St. Andrew's (the two also share a single temple). Father Alexei was a parishoner of St. Andrew's who came to us (Melkites) as a seminarian and, on ordination, was assigned back to serve both his Russian parish family and the Melkite faithful of the area.

In a rare arrangement, the Cardinal Archbishop of LA asked of our Eparch that he accept the Russian parish under his omophor, although technically St. Andrew's is still canonically subject to the Latin archdiocese (Father Alexei, last I knew, was in charge of the ecumenical commission of the LA Archdiocese). So, these things can be done, but it isn't always that easy.

Many years,

Neil

The problem is, that the Russian Catholic Exarchate is subordinated directly to Rome. So, if the future patriarch Lubomir would take initiative, it will worsen the relations between the Church of Rome and the Ucrainian Catholic Church.

Becaues Rome has blocked all other possibilities making laws concerning churches sui iuris as they are.

andreios
http://grkat.nfo.sk

For Diak:

I would like to send you a private massage, but "member's private message mailbox is currently full."

andreios
http://grkat.nfo.sk

Diak,

Dunno. Ask our bishops, especially the ones appointed by Rome. :rolleyes: The strength of any chain is only as strong as its weakest link. And if all the links are weak?

Until we get men as bishops ...

None of these 'pie-in-the-sky' fluff-docs mean what they say. Isn't there a Blue Sky law in the church?

I believe the weight of all those pious, meaningless, words still don't add up to the simple quote from the Byzantine Romanian bishop of Canton, who said that, "our mission as Eastern Catholics is to DISAPPEAR." Maybe Rome sees we need help?

Joe

PS: Does anyone sing the Papal Hymn anymore in our churches?

XB!

Andreios, I emptied out the PM box.

Diak,

You wrote,

Other bishops, Ukrainian Catholic, Melkite, etc. have historically performed ordinations for the Russian Catholics and "loaned" them back, at least allowing the clergy to belong to and be ordained in a church of their own ritual tradition. Exarch Leonid, for example, was ordained to the priesthood by a Bulgarian Catholic bishop in Constantinople, Mikhail Mirov of blessed memory.

This is exactly what I am saying should be done! And let Rome try and stop it! If there are byzantine rite catholics in russia proper then why can't the Patriarch Husar minister to them? Can he only minister to ethnic Ukrainians in Russia? Or is it that the ethnic Russians who happen to be Byzantine rite catholics don't want the ministration of Husar? If so, this is even worse!

This is one of the things really turning me off to going deeper into Eastern spirituality and practice...this horrible enthno stuff.

Just blowing some steam here...thanks for listening.

John

Interesting article:

The Historical Destiny of the Russian C...ussian priest).

andreios
http://grkat.nfo.sk - mp3, icons, texts...

this Russian Catholic tried to download the page, but alas, I got a billet doux that told me that the page could not be displayed. but thanx, anyways.
Much Love,
Jonn

I have downloaded the article withuot problems, though the server narod.ru is very, very slowly.

If you have problems with it, send me your e-mail address in a private message and I will send you the article.


andreios
Byzantine Catholics in Slovakia

To everyone (in this thread)...

I am not real familiar with this whole thing. Nor do I really want conspiracy theories that pretend to tie together some facts.

If you are connected with Rome - you have the right to appeal directly to the Pope.

Has anyone done this? or are we happy with conspiracy theories? Has anyone writtenany letters - made any phone calls - up the 'chain of command' to find out what the heck is going on and what can be done about it ?? Has your own hiarchy already told you what they are doing and you refuse to believe them or trust them?

There is no doubt that sometimes things at management levels - get screwed up. It is too bad we have to use real people in these positions There is no doubt that the church (on human matters of human organization) has some times made political decisions over what should have been good conscience. That has happened since day-one but there are proper ways in place to remedy. Sometimes it is our duty - to take them - and our sin to sit on our hands.

But now I ask you - what does your own hierarchy say about this? And are you in union with your own hierarchy? If you are not - I suggest you reconsider. If - the whole thing is scrambled right up to the hierarchy itself - then - someone make a move!

Papa is in charge (a saying) and anyone under Roman canon - may request a direct appeal to the Pope himself. This includes - any of the laity. It is the right an privilege of anyone (priest or laity) under the Roman canon.

To rumbles about things “down here” - generates all kinds of foul motives. Now - is that fair? Are we - really - sure - what the hold up is? Or has portions of the rank and file become dissidents to their own hierarchy??

And - has your own hiarechy become - passive? Might we ask them “what are you waiting for?” do THEY need a match put to the foot to get them to do their jobs??

All these questions - risk - being eclipsed - by rumors of foul motives. Now that - is not - the Christian way.

If some justice is in need of being had - we need to aggressively seek that justice… and only justice. And it is our sin - if we do not. Otherwise - if we do nothing - it turns to revenge against - conspiracy theories.

But if the current course your church is taking - is the course decided upon by your own hierarchy - then - step in line. Submit - and be in union with those who were appointed to lead you in Christ’s desires.

Sooooo - which is it?

Act or submit?

Please - anything - except drive a wedge between churches ! through unfounded and imagined foul motives. No one - has a foul motive for your church. All have nothing but good intentions. Some may be mistaken - but foul? Not! And if they are mistaken then Christ has put it to you - to do that action which leads to obtaining justice. If they are mistaken - then Christ has laid it in your lap to seek, in any way proper, full justice.

I understand your frustration - but frustration has only two causes.

1) there is nothing you can do but you have not yet realized that or submitted to that reality
2) there is something you can do - and you know it - but you are not doing it

What will you do - to heal - your own frustration? Providence has put you 'here' and it seems to me that he is waiting for your answer. Which way shall you go?

Complaining and conspriacy theories only deepen frustration to the final goal of revenge and resentment. This is the opposite of understanding your brother that Jesus demanded of us. I understand your frustration but let us not let it - slip over into ways that have already exasperated Jesus.

These are my own thoughts on the matter. Please excuse my ignorance on the matter but respect my sincerity.

-ray

What is the approx. number of Russian Byzantine Catholics? In the USA it is small, but that should not mean they should not have their own hierarchy. It is like they are going through what the Rusyns did earlier last century?

RayK, I do not believe that you have the right to appeal directly to the roman pope. I think you must go to the lower instances first.

Than I think the right to appeal directly to the roman pope is nowadays interpreted as right to go to through different institutions of curia (or is realized so).

I know that f. Golovanov has been in Rome (on his page you can find an article on this travel) and has been in the Congregation of the Eastern Churches spoking about the situation of the Russian Catholic Church sui iuris. Even he has been on audience of the roman pope, but I think it was only a general audience.

And this was not the only one tentation to communicate with the congregation.

andreios
Byzantine Catholics in Slovakia

Pyrohy, I would say 300-500 thousands.

Canon 35 CCEO:

Baptized non-Catholics coming into full communion with the Catholic Church should retain and practice their own rite everywhere in the world and should observe it as much as humanly possible. Thus, they are to be enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the same rite with due regard for the right of approaching the Apostolic See in special cases of persons, communities or regions.

So this means that all orthodox converted to the catholicism are of byzantine rite. In Russia about 50% of catholics were originaly orthodox, so 50% of all catholics there are of byzantine rite (belong to the vacant Exarchate).


andreios
Byzantine Catholics in Slovakia

Friends,

As I read through this thread now for the first time I thought I was reading about the America BCs.

Perhaps there is an analogy with sales. It's a numbers game. People don't act on something unless they are approached several times with the proposal. It used to be 7. The number is doubtless higher now. What if a hundred people contacted the right official in Rome a hundred times?

Perhaps that method could work in our own perplexing American situation as well. What if we were as persistent about the problems we face as the widow was with the king who finally relented? What if we insisted, with proper respect, that our bishops lead in evangelization efforts, etc. Perhaps our bishops don't realize how committed we are to evangelization. Perhaps if 100 of us began writing letters to the Pronuncio in Washington DC and to the Oriental Congregation in Rome and keep records of every effort and do this every week for the next several years and then began inviting our neighbors and friends to Divine Liturgy we might actually change some things? Its worth a try.

Dan L

Dear Crucis,

Forgive me, but what does the "horrible ethno stuff" have anything to do with the Russian Catholic Church?

It's all about the "horrible Vatican stuff" in reality . . .

Alex

I certainly agree with the poster who said Rome treats eastern Catholics as 2nd class Catholics. This really is a sticky situation. I'm not sure what Rome's intention is, and will not entertain myself with conspiracy theory, but it is a sad situation. The Russian Catholics need their spiritual support, but if I were Pope, I would not want to upset the Russian Church either, especially the current Pope who seems, thank the Lord, very interested in restoring communion between our churches. However, I don't see how supporting an existing community can be interpreted as harshness toward the Orthodox, (except that Patriarch Alexy can be, well, a jerk).

I do see the point of view where they eastern catholic churches would be somewhat unwelcome in a distinctively Orthodox country, but this is more of a problem of starting an eastern orthodox eparchy than supporting one that is already there. Like it or not they are there, and it is rather unreasonable to oppose their spiritual nourishment, and certainly not Christian.

Hopefully Rome will listen to your appeals. What sticky situations uniatism has caused... Rome has acknowledged it as an error, and it is probably the biggest stumbling block to reunion, but I know it has done so much good on the individual level, exposing people to the eastern traditions and for many I've heard it re-invigorated their faith. Even though I am no longer a uniate, without the BC church I wouldn't be where I am now.

If Rome refuses to treat the Russian Catholics as they should, there is always the Orthodox Church, like some of the BCs did in America, but if 50% are converts FROM the Orthodox church, perhaps that church is doing something to drive its faithful away.

Things like this break my heart.

:rolleyes:
The sticky situations are caused by the schism.
Rome, speaks far more subtly than you suggest. If you are thinking of the Balamand statement, you will find a frank acknowledgement that, as a method of achieving reunion has been unsucessful, and, as a missionary endeavor is being abandonded in light of developments in how chiurches of the East and West, see each other.
I think your final suggestion in the quoted passage would be regarded as a grave insult to most Orthodox.

I'm not sure I completely agree with this statement. From the Orthodox I have talked with, it seems that the papal claim to supremacy is the universal stumbling block to reunion. As for the existence of Eastern Catholic Churches, that seems to be a big issue with some of the Slavic Orthodox Christians; it doesn't seem to be a big issue for the Greek and Antiochian Orthodox with whom I have spoken.


That has personally been the case for me. My faith, as a Roman Catholic, has been immensely enriched by my experience with Eastern Catholicism. And, I have met others (here in the U.S.) who have experienced the same thing, usually after marrying an Eastern Catholic.

However, I have also encountered (online) a few people who became Orthodox after being exposed to Eastern Christianity through the Eastern Catholic Churches. For these people, the Eastern Catholic Churches were stepping stones to Orthodoxy. Therein is perhaps a hidden stumbling block to reunion here in the States. The Eastern Catholic Churches sometimes are, in effect, vehicles for "reverse uniatism" -- Catholics becoming Orthodox.

Of course, all of this is a bit of tempest in a teapot here in the U.S. because the overall number of Eastern Catholics is so small. Of course, these issues are important to Eastern Catholics. But they are so few in number, and their history is so foreign to the history of most American Catholics, and their overall influence upon the Roman Catholics in America is so tiny, that the issue of "uniatism" just doesn't seem to matter much to most Catholics in the U.S. Indeed, most Catholics don't even know of the existence of the Orthodox, the Eastern Catholics or the issue of "uniatism."

If there is a major stumbling block to reunion between the Catholics and the Orthodox here in the U.S., I would suggest it is gross ignorance among the Roman Catholics in the U.S. of the *existence* of the Orthodox. And if Roman Catholics in the U.S. ever did become more knowledgeable about their eastern brethren, I would suggest that "uniatism" probably wouldn't be that big of an issue: because it is pretty much foreign to the historical and cultural experience of most Catholics in the U.S. Instead, I suggest that the main stumbling block in the U.S. to reunion of Catholics and Orthodox (after gross ignorance) probably would be the Catholic claim of papal supremacy.

-- John