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Re: Aliturgical days in the Great Fast #129732 04/04/05 05:24 AM
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djs Offline
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On the contrary, Steve, Diak's statement made it clear that ultimately it was the priest who would have to figure out what to do.

I have two major problems with the overt threat in the Professor's post. First, whether someone actually knows another poster or not, their manifest desire to post anonymously - which is within forum rules (though often criticized) - should be respected. More importantly, the idea that comments made here will be reported to the Bishops for possible disciplinary action is very chilling. I was interested in the context of this thread in finding out what various parishes actually did for their Holy Week services. Now I am glad that I didn't ask lest some priest gets narked into hot water. mad

Re: Aliturgical days in the Great Fast #129733 04/04/05 05:24 AM
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Diak Offline
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Steve, put in that light I can indeed see your point. There were indeed many other better ways of explaining myself than I did, and I thank you for pointing that out. I was not given the same courtesy by Mr. Thompson, but was instead subjected to his approbrium and premptive character malignment.

The Typikon appears to remain normative, and if the pastor is following that as he should, he may be at odds with individual liturgical texts, which are also supposed to be normative. I personally have seen nothing in writing from our bishop which trumps one over the other. Perhaps there is.

I am saddended that Mr. Thompson has chosen to (1) wait nearly two weeks after I made that post to engage in this cowardly character assasination without the same courtesy of clarification as you made and (2) this occurred during a time of profound mourning for our brave departed Pontiff.

If this is to be expected treatment for the exchange of opinions which are not always well articulated, my time here will be very short indeed. I apologize if I have offended anyone here, but when a man is basically called a liar publically without any sense of due process, he feels compelled to defend himself which may lead to anger.

Re: Aliturgical days in the Great Fast #129734 04/04/05 10:23 AM
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Father Gregory Offline
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Diak, Gee...a LOT of testosterone being manifested here right bro? biggrin Maybe this whole discussion needs to be brought down a notch and we should all realize that ALL liturgy is to bring us into communion with the Risen Lord and with one another? ALL typicons are TOOLS, and as such (I personally think) must always be used with pastoral discretion. If there is a question, then the pastor of the parish needs to consult his bishop. Simple. I've always noted that there are those who follow their typicons slavishly, with little pastoral sensitivity, but to my knowledge no such person has ever been canonized by any Church. wink Usually such people are rigid and unbending by nature...and in need of an 'injection'---of the gift of faith. Somehow telling one's bishop about something that someone else said ("Well, she said Your Grace...") does seem like 'tattle-tailing' in my humble opinion...and I would stay FAR away from such behavior and those who would use it, personally. Reminds me of school children, actually...rather than mature Christian behavior. By the same token of course, it isn't really much in the spirit of the Gospels to resort to legal recourse against a brother or sister in Christ---until and unless we have FIRST fulfilled the Gospel admonition, "Go to your brother and if he will not listen to you, then bring another, and if he will not listen to him---then bring him before the Church..."

I am always reminded of St. John the great Evangelist at such times. During the last years of his life, he preached only ONE sermon to everyone: "Little children, LOVE ONE ANOTHER!" Simple...but soooooooooooooooooooooo difficult for us to do, huh?

My love to you all.

Your poorest brother in Christ,
+Fr. Gregory, who often speaks when he has no business saying anything! frown


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
Re: Aliturgical days in the Great Fast #129735 04/04/05 01:15 PM
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Steve Petach Offline
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Originally posted by Diak:
Steve, put in that light I can indeed see your point. There were indeed many other better ways of explaining myself than I did, and I thank you for pointing that out. I was not given the same courtesy by Mr. Thompson, but was instead subjected to his approbrium and premptive character malignment.

The Typikon appears to remain normative, and if the pastor is following that as he should, he may be at odds with individual liturgical texts, which are also supposed to be normative. I personally have seen nothing in writing from our bishop which trumps one over the other. Perhaps there is.


With regard to the "mandated" use of the liturgical propers for Good Friday with Annunciation if you read the first page of the sheets there is an explanation of the usage along with Metropolitan Basil's imprimatur in which case it was clearly stated that it was preferred to use it over other constructs. Perhaps that page was omitted? The exact text of the last sentence of the last paragraph is:

" No other text is to be used on this occasion in the churches of the Byzantine Metropolitan Church Sui Juris of Pittsburgh, U.S.A."


I am saddended that Mr. Thompson has chosen to (1) wait nearly two weeks after I made that post to engage in this cowardly character assasination without the same courtesy of clarification as you made and (2) this occurred during a time of profound mourning for our brave departed Pontiff.


It is your assumption that Prof. Tbompson "chose" to wait nearly two weeks to post.

If this is to be expected treatment for the exchange of opinions which are not always well articulated, my time here will be very short indeed. I apologize if I have offended anyone here, but when a man is basically called a liar publically without any sense of due process, he feels compelled to defend himself which may lead to anger.


Now, again you are projecting your opinion. Your assumption is that you were called a liar. My view is that you were told, though somewhat forcefully, to watch your tone of authority when posting statements of opinion in what appeared to be a factual form. eg:"In our Eparchy, when an available or "mandated" text does not reconcile with what is directed in the Typikon, the pastor is free to follow the Typikon if he so desires. You can't mandate a Typikon and then turn around and mandate texts that don't agree with it."

again , my unworthy .00000012 cents of opinion,

Steve

Re: Aliturgical days in the Great Fast #129736 04/04/05 02:16 PM
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Diak Offline
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Steve, what was said was that I knowingly posted something that was false. Please read carefully, as I and others have:
Quote
I am certain, because of your level of erudition shown on this list, that you actually know that and are saying something that is manifestly false
Far more than what your "view" appears to be, not only unjust but uncharitable without means to answer something as strongly stated as this by Mr. Thompson, who as a former priest should hopefully know how to treat people better.

I am explicitly stating that any outward false statements or misstatements were not intended at any point. I was not given the courtesy to address this. That is what is apparent here.

Re: Aliturgical days in the Great Fast #129737 04/04/05 02:40 PM
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J. Michael Thompson Offline
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With me, the general policy about posting on any public message board is: (1) write it; (2) read it; (3) erase it and write it again. A collateral rule for me is (4) try to never post when tired or after 8 p.m. In responding to this thread, I broke all of my own rules. But, even more importantly:

I would like to make an apology to Diak, and I need to make it in public because my offense was done in public.

It is stated with clarity in the Gospel according to St. Matthew, chapter 18, verses 15-20:

"If your brother sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother."

I made no attempt to contact Diak privately on this matter. There is no excuse for this. In doing what I did, I sinned against God and against Diak, and against the community of the Forum.

I publicly apologize for having done so, and ask for forgiveness.

And, having said that, let me please explain why I sign my posts the way I do.

Since the first day I joined the Forum, it was apparent to me that the anonymity of many posters could come back and wreak havoc. Because of that, I wanted to be completely identified so that I knew my posts could be traced to me, and to remind myself that my opinion was (frankly) not important. If I were to post, I wanted to say only things that completely aligned with the magisterium of the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia.

It is, in fact, because I sign my name that way (as well as because my offense was in public)that I wanted to apologize in public.

Also: when communicating with the Council of Hierarchs, there will be neither forwarding any posts from the Forum nor mention of screennames.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

P.S.
No cantor CAN tell any pastor what to do, liturgically or otherwise.. You can ask any cantor who attends the MCI what I have told them when there is a conflict between official instructions and the pastor's wishes (i.e., to follow the instructions of the pastor or administrator).

P.P.S.
In our understanding, there is no such thing as a "former priest."

Re: Aliturgical days in the Great Fast #129738 04/04/05 02:52 PM
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Father Gregory Offline
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Dear Brother-in-Christ, CHRIST IS RISEN---AND IN OUR VERY MIDST! Your post above gives an authentic witness to us all. You are indeed a big man, where it counts: in faith and in heart. I'm not often moved, but your above post HAS indeed moved me. May we all follow your example always!

Kissing your holy right hand,
Your poor brother in the Risen Lord,
+Gregory, priestmonk


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
Re: Aliturgical days in the Great Fast #129739 04/04/05 03:46 PM
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I am glad that Professor Thompson has acknowledged his offenses to Diak and offered an unconditional apology.

I must note one thing. Professor Thompsonís use of Matthew 18:15-20 seems to be either inappropriate or presumptuous. Diak has not sinned against anyone with his comments. There should be no suggestion that Diakís comments are of a sinful nature requiring someone to take him aside and provide fraternal correction. There should also be no suggestion that Professor Thompson is in a superior position with an ability to judge others. As Professor Thompson has noted, the lack of charity here was his, in that he commented falsely and accusatorily before he had a full understanding of Diakís opinion.

I will leave this thread open for Diak to have the last word (since he was the person sinned against and since this thread has really wandered from its original topic). Once Diak has posted or indicates he does not wish to post I will close this thread.

I ask all other participants not to post further in this thread and to start new threads with appropriate titles if they wish to continue these discussions.

Admin

Re: Aliturgical days in the Great Fast #129740 04/04/05 03:59 PM
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J. Michael Thompson Offline
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"I must note one thing. Professor Thompsonís use of Matthew 18:15-20 seems to be either inappropriate or presumptuous. Diak has not sinned against anyone with his comments. There should be no suggestion that Diakís comments are of a sinful nature requiring someone to take him aside and provide fraternal correction. There should also be no suggestion that Professor Thompson is in a superior position with an ability to judge others. As Professor Thompson has noted, the lack of charity here was his, in that he commented falsely and accusatorily before he had a full understanding of Diakís opinion."

Actually, Mr. Administrator, your gloss on the text of this is quite incorrect. No place on this thread did I say, or imply, that I was in a superior position. And for you to read my heart and imply that I was either inappropriate or presumtuous in using St. Matthew 18 is, alas, also not putting the best construction on the situation.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Aliturgical days in the Great Fast #129741 04/04/05 04:40 PM
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Diak Offline
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I appreciate the sincerety and justice of the Admin in addressing this thread and his well-positioned statement. I again apoligize for any statements which I may not have articulated well. May God bless and give John many years for his work here.

I am saddened that Mr. Thompson still signs himself as a representative of the Seminary while conducting himself in this way. The end would seem to present a less than salutory opinion not only of the person, but perhaps more frightening that of the establishment he presumes to represent.

I would hope an atmosphere of frank and courteous discussion worthy of civilized men will be able to continue on this Forum, with due course and opportunity for men to express themselves before being threatened and defamed.

For myself, after this experience I have decided to take a hiatus from the Forum. May God bless you all, please keep me in your prayers and Christ is Risen!

Re: Aliturgical days in the Great Fast #129742 04/04/05 05:10 PM
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Quote
Professor Thompson wrote:
Actually, Mr. Administrator, your gloss on the text of this is quite incorrect. No place on this thread did I say, or imply, that I was in a superior position. And for you to read my heart and imply that I was either inappropriate or presumtuous in using St. Matthew 18 is, alas, also not putting the best construction on the situation.
Professor Thompson,

I have no idea what is in your heart. I am obligated to comment based only upon what you have actually posted. You quoted "If your brother sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother." To me this indicates what I have already noted above, that either you 1) inappropriately chose this quote or 2) were presumptuous that he had sinned, that you had a right to call him to account, and that you were wrong only because you had not privately approached him about his sin.

Admin

---

Since Diak has now had a chance to respond I will close this thread. Participants are invited to start new threads on the various liturgical topics discussed here (and title them accordingly).

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