Ahh.. so you are like the one in the gospels who has suffer much at the hands of many doctors.

>and it was by the way of perfection that I was heald.
The Freud in me noticed that you almost wrote ‘healed’ but not quite. And the same “more of less”. Near by not there.

So what did you want to know about involuntary sin? Anything specific?

-ray

What say we start with my spelling and typos?

Eli

I meant nothing serious. If I have offended you I am sorry. I just noticed that your typo almost spelled 'healed' but not quite … and you followed that with 'more or less' which also generally has the meaning of - almost but not quite.

I am the king of typos myself. Friends remark that they can always tell if a message (supposedly from me) is really from me - because if it is clean of typos ... it is not from Ray my spell checker has a mind of its own and often changes my mispelled word into some other word I did not intend. And .. too late ... I am on to the next thing. Now when they invent a spell checker which checks my spelling before I write - I would be OK.

I was wandering if you wanted to know something specific about involuntary sin. Otherwise it seems too wide for me to attempt to handle. I doubt your spelling and typos has anything to do with involuntary sin (if that is what you meant). Otherwise I do not know what you meant by 'start with my spelling and typos'.

Peace be to you and your church.

-ray

Eli...

Upon waking this morning a nice concise way to talk about understanding involuntary sin came to me. If you will accept it - I will use modern metaphors - as “it is like this” is what I am doing. I am not giving theology - I am giving a little something that by it we might understand theology better.

So… it is LIKE this…

Christianity has been around for over 2000 years… our understanding of it has developed. And what was revealed (that which human reasoning can not attain by itself) is really not much in the way of amount - but was all that was needed and was complete (what the father had to say to us was said fully within Jesus Christ).

Now let us use the metaphor of modern day computers.

Our human make up is comprised of two created natures. Mind (spirit or psychic) and body (soma). Each of these natures are fully functional on their own design for their specific purposes.

So let us talk about the ‘Law of the members’… since the way Paul uses the term means how a thing operates (by what rules and principles it operates).

Now the human mind (created spirit) is about 10% conscious and 90% automatic (subconscious). This is good. It allows us (as a combined nature) to operate really well. Once we learn to drive a car - most of the driving is done by our subconscious mind.

While the conscious mind is very well at focus and individual items … the subconscious mind is a little dumber, more rudimentary and concerned with the soma and its purposes and survival. It is the mind of our animal nature.

Nothing about the body and its senses can have an experience of God or know about God. The mind of the body (subconscious mind) does not know nor understand … God. Because God (uncreated spirit) is not an object approximate to its capabilities.

As I said, the subconscious mind, while not being as intelligent as the mind of our spiritual faculties… the subconscious mind processes a massive amount of data. It is constantly adjusting all aspects of our body to adjust to conditions. Heart rate, breathing, blood flow, physical reactions, etc having to do with all sensory perceptions. It does this through (shall we say) programming.

When the conscious mind does something often… the subconscious mind says “Here.. Let me make that automatic for you” and sets in place a program (habit) based upon a new arrangement of other existing and past programs (automatic habits). It - re-uses - data - in this way. To form a new habitual response.

OK.. So far this is pretty simple and thanks to Jesus and then Paul and many others - we understand all this a lot better. This type of stuff has become almost commonplace understanding in Christian civilization.

Now the way we (humans) adjust our subconscious programming is to attempt to - re-program troublesome areas of it. We adjust or set in place - new programs - over the troublesome programs. Psycho-therapy (spirit-therapy).

Ascetics (which is not to Christianity alone) are methods by which we ‘break’ certain subconscious habitual programming. We interrupt - the running programs. And by this we gain some personal knowledge of their automatic operation. We also might use some aspects of ascetics to do some re-programming. Whether we do this in a religious setting or a social setting (psychotherapy). In either case (the setting) the reprogramming is done along the lines of, and for the purpose of better social compatibility. In other words to function in society better.

Now let us bring another set of concepts into this and later - - - join the two.
Reality (the experience of reality) is the first expression of God to us humans. Now I am not talking about what we know about reality in the way of the analytical mind… I am talking about our experience - of reality. The over-ridding importance of reality (for us humans) is not the science of it (knowledge about it) but the meaning of it. Our experience of reality imparts - meaning - to us.

If we take un-adulterated reality into ourselves - we are at a union with created nature (and its meaning) and we are necessarily also at union with God who created that reality - moment by moment. However (and we are speaking about involuntary sin) if certain programming of our subconscious has been placed there and tints our reception of reality - we rather live and function in un-reality. Now I will leave out all the details of that.

We know (through revelation) that reality is a person. It is the person of the Risen and Resurrected Jesus Christ - as the Logos - the Word. This is made clear by John in the prolog of his gospel. “All that is made to exist - is made to exist by the Word - an no-thing exists comes to exist without Him” (paraphrased).

This means that Reality (if we take that concept and add the idea of person to it) is what we call - Providence. Providence itself is then … a living person (of Jesus Christ).

Now ascetics alone … can not bring us back to (or forward to) an unadulterated experience of Reality and re-union with God and natural world which God creates. In other words no human set of programming has the capability to re-program (re-create) our original design and its well balanced functions. Unless God re-build the house (do the re-programming) the house (holiness) does not get built.

Providence itself (God/Jesus) must do the reprogramming. Another way to say this is that we must be re-programmed by Reality - itself. It is the daily events which reality forms and brings to us - that is God’s part in this re-programming effort. Our part is our cooperation. This is our daily bread. This is our baptism.

That daily Providence is that which sanctifies us - has always been the doctrine of the churches (East or West). It is not ascetics or even the sacraments (these are all aids to the primary action of Providence and our cooperation). Note that for any of the sacraments to be effective we must be in good conscience (proper cooperation with the will of God as it comes to us daily via Providence).

Anyways… this has all been something of modern metaphor by which we can understand something of involuntary sin as habitual and subconscious tendencies that automatically substitute un-realities (in-direct and tinted experience of Reality) … for a real and direct experience/cooperation/union with the person of Reality itself.

The original sin (at operation still in all of us) is our own free choice of self-providence in place of God’s all-providence. And the residue of our past self-providence is within our subconscious nature.

Sanctification takes place in the memories (in the subconscious) as Paul says our fight is in spiritual places (the mind - not the body). Self-knowledge helps (so that we recognize certain things) but self-reprogramming does nothing but imitate what we think is sanctification (but really is not). Only Reality itself - can reprogram us - back to our original design. Now if Reality were NOT a person - this would be impossible as it would be chaos. But Reality IS a person. And so reality each day is tailored exactly for each of us. Hence - contemplation has always been the effective form of any ascetic practices as it makes us more receptive to Reality and let dependent upon our habitual ways.

This view might (or might not) be of use to you.

Peace to you and your church.

-ray

This is where tone and expression could come in handy. There is absolutely nothing to be sorry for. In fact I thank you for the opportunity to have a good laugh.

I was poking fun at myself. I don't spell well at all and I also get in a rush here and I tend to work without my reading glasses because they make me a bit woozy looking at the monitor, and I don't touch type, and tend to be a by dizzylexic with letters, but not numbers which I find strange since I don't work well, otherwise, with the very symbols that I don't confuse.

So some of my lapses are systemic, some of them are my fault for not addressing them with anything bur avoidance, and others are my fault directly.

Kind of a play on involuntary sin,now that I think about it, don't you think? But a bit obscure for the venue, I realize.

I didn't mention it but the discussion on involuntary sin has shifted a bit over to the section here in Scripture and Patristics where I posted a passage from Diadochos of Photiki. Perhaps we should keep it over there since it is explicity set up for that.

Eli

It is indeed interesting. I think Father Maximus might be interested in it as well.

I was wondering if Father Anthony might move it or if we could just copy and paste it over under the heading of Diadochos of Photiki.

There are things in it that are quite familiar to me and things that I am not sure I follow precisely so I need to pick around in it to see what to ask you but I don't want to do all that here and then move it. So do you mind if we wait a bit and see what Father Anthony says to do?

Eli

That's what I get for not paying attention. Father Anthony is not moderating here.

Sorry for the mix-up.

Eli