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Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131064
05/06/05 10:16 AM
05/06/05 10:16 AM
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Britain
wild goose Offline OP
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One of our neighbours here on the Forum posted a quote from Pat Buchanan the other day, wherein he talks about the devil] in quite literal and almost personal terms.
[URL=http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43966][/URL]

Quote
What Benedict XVI is telling the world and dissident Catholics is: It is not Christ's church that must change its teaching, it is you who must change your hearts. Like Christ himself, Benedict XVI will be reviled because he has said no to the world, the flesh and the Devil.
As one who does not live or think or feel or believe as a resident of 1st century Palestine, I find this quite odd.

As humans and as Christians we know that evil exists in the world and we know the source of that evil-- humans. Though we may not want to say that some humans are absolute evil, and therefore try to take some responsibility for having done evil away from them, we don't believe that a devil or satan is in control of them (or the world for that matter).

Does Pat, therefore, resort to traditional language because he hasn't done the Biblical, theological and philosophical homework that would easily dispel the devil?


a fool for Christ, like St Xenia
Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131065
05/06/05 10:19 AM
05/06/05 10:19 AM
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wild goose Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by wild goose:
One of our neighbours here on the Forum posted a quote from Pat Buchanan the other day, wherein he talks about the devil in quite literal and almost personal terms.
Pat\'s quote

Quote
What Benedict XVI is telling the world and dissident Catholics is: It is not Christ's church that must change its teaching, it is you who must change your hearts. Like Christ himself, Benedict XVI will be reviled because he has said no to the world, the flesh and the Devil.
As one who does not live or think or feel or believe as a resident of 1st century Palestine, I find this quite odd.

As humans and as Christians we know that evil exists in the world and we know the source of that evil-- humans. Though we may not want to say that some humans are absolute evil, and therefore try to take some responsibility for having done evil away from them, we don't believe that a devil or satan is in control of them (or the world for that matter).

Does Pat, therefore, resort to traditional language because he hasn't done the Biblical, theological and philosophical homework that would easily dispel the devil?


a fool for Christ, like St Xenia
Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131066
05/06/05 11:02 AM
05/06/05 11:02 AM
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Posts: 4,139
Washington, PA
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Without out comenting on Pat Buchanon's use of the term, either one believes that Satan is an actual personal spiritual being who is waging a war against Christ's Church or one does not. This does not relieve people of the responsibility for the evil they produce but the fact that people produce evil does not change the fact that the Church teaches that Satan is a personal being and is the father of lies and original producer of evil.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131067
05/06/05 04:49 PM
05/06/05 04:49 PM
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Quote
As humans and as Christians we know that evil exists in the world and we know the source of that evil-- humans. Though we may not want to say that some humans are absolute evil, and therefore try to take some responsibility for having done evil away from them, we don't believe that a devil or satan is in control of them (or the world for that matter).
The Devil you say!! eek A comedian once said that, "The Northern Baptists say there ain't no Hell. The Southern Baptists say the Hell there ain't!" wink

Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131068
05/07/05 07:49 PM
05/07/05 07:49 PM
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Haddonfield, NJ
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The Devil's greatest plan for success is that people do not believe in him.

Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131069
05/08/05 08:12 AM
05/08/05 08:12 AM
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What a day to post this but I believe it is important to. Several young teens I know came to visit along with a copy of "The Satanic Bible" which as we all know can be purchased in any bookstore now. My young friends brought up "The Infernal Names" and the question about one name that as I recall somewhere on this Forum it was brought up by a member also. At the ancient age of 41 and having read this same so called "Bible" in the 80's I pointed out that Satanists claim they don't believe in God nor a Satan who can manifest as a person or spirit, yet, their "Bible" claims this one name isn't to be spoken except with a so called "Satanic Priest or Satanic Witch" the point made to the young people was that I found LaVey's comments about this name "hypocritical" since Satanist's and members of the Temple of the Vampire maintain they are their own "God." When one young lady asked if I would speak the name, I told her as Christ told Satan when He was tempted in the desert, "Thou shall not put the Lord thy God to the test!" I was then asked if that remark didn't show a lack of faith in God? I told my young friends my faith is in God by not putting God to the test and the Satanic Bible is nothing more than the Prince of Lies up to his old tricks. At that point all apologized to me, I encouraged all to go to Confession as soon as possible and then I brought out a book of matches for one purpose-to send "The Satanic Bible" back to where it belongs. One young lad and one young lady told me they felt so ashamed by reading this book, I told both that there is no sin too great that God would not forgive if they turn to Him in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. One boy, a Lutheran, who I've know for eight years told me after reading "The Satanic Bible" that: "it all sounds really cool!" I told him that is where "The Father of Lies" is at his best, people don't believe in Satan and that is his greatest lie this world beleives now.


Seraphim41
Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131070
05/09/05 12:18 AM
05/09/05 12:18 AM
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I too can confirm through personal experience that he does exist. I will relate only one incident.

That does not mean that I ascribe to the usual and common beliefs about who and what and so on - about him. He has a limited ‘range’. And he is allowed - to do ‘his thing’ for a reason. Most people unnderstand Satan in a popular way and that way is fine for most.

I remember one time, when I worked with a college age guy. We were working security in the evenings.

As we got to know each other - he trusted me - and told me about his reading of the books of Carlos Castaneda (spelling) which I was somewhat familiar with. I listened. And only commented a bit. I was reading my own stuff and had no call to comment on his stuff (not that I liked it).

In a few weeks - he came in and looked like crap. “So… what’s going on?” I asked and he told me his best friend had committed suicide.

We talked a bit - and walked ... and I listened… and the story of his friend was very sad. A horrible childhood. He told me they were like brothers.

Within a few weeks - he came in looking better. And one night he told me that his friend came to visit him… and so he was cheered up.

“How?” I asked. “In the evening… in a dream.” he replied.

No stranger to this type of thing … it just might be his friend … so I asked him what it was like.

“He came to me and we started to talk. He said he was at peace now. His troubles were over and it was peaceful where he was.”

I said “Oh.. OK.. That is interesting.” and this type of communication does sometimes happen with close friends and family. I am familiar with such visits to those who are about to die - when loved ones come to fortify them for the last hours of life and the fear of death we have to pass through.

He went on “He told me that I should come and join him. I would find peace there.. And we can be back together.” And his face beamed a bit. He said his friend looked as he had looked in life - but happier. And they spend time talking. He mentioned that his friends eyes were green in the after life (brown or something like that before).

Green? This creature had everlasting life - and that was not yet a part of his suicide friend who would be spending time in purgation (Purgatory for those who really understand this doctrine). And taking of what a wonderful thing suicide was?? Nope. This was not his friend. This was a spirit who had eternal existence - and his friend was not yet done with sufferings of purgation needed for union with God.

On that note - things had taken a turn. That is NOT what a friends from ‘the other side’ would say. People who die from suicide - regret what they had done. Peace (if it comes) does not come to them right away… even before all attachments to the life of the body have been severed by purgation… but even more so - they become aware of the wrong that suicide was. They express that regret - they do NOT invite loved ones to join them through suicide.

People who die with suicide - have attachments back to this world (time and body) which are not yet broken. These attachments hold them back - from going on - to God. They must be broken by God before the person can go into God (if that is where he is going). Family who die in good graces - may have attachments back to family still living - and because it is an attachment of genuine love like God's own love - it does not hold them back from God - it does not need purgation. It continues in heaven.

Once a suicide has been purged of his attachments to the life of the body - they are not allowed new attachments back to ‘this world’ (the time of the body has passed) as it would be a detriment to those still here who know about their suicide.. and duh ... they can not enter the body again in order to make new attachements anyway.

These things are all written about in the doctors of the church and mystical theology.

At this - I knew who he “friend” was… since I had seen this type of thing before. As careful as I could but also as honest as I could.. I told him “Loved ones of family and friends can come to us in dreams and communicate… but … this … is not your friend. It is something else." Of course - he did not believe me. I knew he wouldn’t. and I continued “Now I know you do not that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God… and if it is true... that reality has nothing to do to if we personally believe it or not... it does not depend upon our personal belief... so what I am going to suggest that you do ... will be no skin off of your back. You have nothing vested and nothing to gain or lose. The next time your ‘friend’ comes to you… do me a favor … it is a favor to me and should make no personal difference to you.”

Since he trusted me a bit - and I had listened to him so far and not judged him or his life (I had no reason to) he said that he would do what I suggested.

“The next time he comes - you will what I am telling you now.. And when you do .. You will simply say in the conversation ‘In the name of Jesus Christ - reveal yourself.’ and then you can go on with your visit.. OK?” to which he agreed and over the next few days we both forgot about it.

By two weeks - he came to work and wanted to talk to me. When we had chance not to be overheard he said “I had a visit. We talked and I was about to agree to commit suicide and join John … when I remembered your favor. I expected nothing to happen .. But I said what you told me. I said “In the name of Jesus Christ reveal yourself” and when I said that - he changed - from my friend into someone else who was very angry - swearing - his eyes turned flaming red with rage and immediately left and the dream ended.”

I assured him that this was not his friend (he knew that now). And I explained to him how suicide is not an escape from reality… people who commit suicide only add to their troubles. They still must face in the afterlife what they did not want to face in this life. They have simply compounded matters by now adding suicide to the pile.

God knows all about the kind of life we had down here - so someone who commits suicide is not necessarily damned to hell for all time. We do not know what weaknesses - and what pressures - and what Providence God had arranged - what mountains were placed for them to climb and how hard or easy the climb might have been… so it is not to us to judge anymore than knowing that - we should not add to our troubles with suicide.

A month later - word came to me by someone else who was not involved in this incident (and knew nothing of it and had absolutely no connection to this guy) that Satan was angry with me for snatching this guy away from him. The implication was that he was ‘going to get me’ for that. My reply was “Tell him.. I could care … less. I have nothing but disgust for him. Anytime I think I should expose him... I will.”

End of story: He decided not to commit suicide and to not accept anymore 'visits' from his friend.

My own gift in this was that because I had accepted that a couple of things which the church said was true (other spirits can interfere in our own spiritual nature) and I suggested a remedy that the church would suggest - I only had to wait and not concern myself further. Perhaps I would never know what happened. The results were not up to me. My gift (given to me) was to know the results. My part was tiny (recognise a situation and suggest a remedy from the church). Once done. I was done. That was all I was 'called on' to do. Nothing more.

Satan, the devil.. So on and so forth by whatever name … does exist. But it is not like the movies. Those who experience him - experience an intellect and will which is spirit (an experience of the mind and heart). While some can imagine that they are experiencing evil demonic - most are mistaken - there is also the real thing. An intellect and will - which is - other than one’s own mind or even subconscious mind. An ‘outsider’ so to speak. Absolutely other than ones own spirit or neurotic psychosis etc.. etc..

That which is body nature can effect that which is bofy nature. That which is spiritual nature can effect that which is spiritual nature. Like can move like. We do remain free not to cooperate with that movement.

Satan is a spirit (power which is not our own but yet experience within our spirit) which has its limits of authority… and which knows about God - but can not know God intimately in union like we can. He really does not - understand God - and does not understand how and why people are attracted to God. Being a spirit (no corporal body) his existence is empty - without some connection to the world of the senses and change. He experiences a kid of pleasure - release from emptiness - when a connection with a sympathetic human spirit is made - because the human spirit can have a union with God - so he longs to be a parasite to that union which he can not have and humans can have. However he can not make this connection without our voluntary consent. And ONCE someone realizes that fully - there is nothing Satan can do. There is no hold he can gain. Fear and deception is what he can use to manipulate us once he has an opening.

God allows that ‘opening’ only under two ways. Two circumstances. You will have to read the doctors of the Church to find out what ways.

Does Satan exist? No.. not in the way a car exists, or a breeze exists. Philosophy can not reason its way to his existence as a spirit. And while it may seems that he has free hand to war against God - he does not. Nor does satan know what God is … that he wars against. God for him is a concept of which he can have no experience of except in the same way we can know about the Planet Pluto by no one here will every - experience - the planet Pluto..

Scriptures display a progress in understanding of Satan or the devil and his place in creation. In early scriptures Satan wars against God - as scriptures progresses - Satan is allowed to do only certain things and only at certain times.

He (an independent intellect will and memory -spirit - mind) was, is, and will always be - an unwitting servant of God. A tool which God does not directly desire to use (to allow his limited freedom) but - because of our own free will - there is an occasional use for Satan in the progress (or no progress) our sanctification.

For most of us, he affects us only indirectly (we do not have a direct experience of him). And because it is indirect - and not direct - it is easy to say that he has no existence and no real influence on us. And for most people that is fine - they need not be concerned with what - they need not be concerned with.

Only when one comes into a more or less direct experience of his independent intellect and will - does one need to ask the serious questions and do some serious research.

It is a mistake to imagine Satan has a big influence on men - it is also a mistake to imagine that Satan does not exist and that he is the figment, or symbolic, of other more ordinary psychological drives of our own mind and subconscious. I can assure you that the real MaCoy - is not a part of nor a misunderstood subconscious drive of our own mind.

All that was a long time ago for me.

Philosophy has not the cabability to reach by reason - the nature of God. That is the role of theology. Nor the nature of other spirits which are not part of human nature. Like all tools - it has its appropriate area of objects and subjects.

Dear Seraphim41...

It sounds to me from your description… that you handled the whole thing rather well. You didn’t scare them … you just laid it out for them honestly. These kid are not evil nor taken over by Satan - they are just looking for ‘something’ to make sense of this world. It seems they sensed that something - in you - and trusted you.

People who preachers at us … leave us - dry.
Rule givers can not follow even the rules they give.
People who talk to us about things of which they have no experience - leave us filled to confusion in the intellect and empty in the heart.

We adults fool ourselves about all this - the young still have an honesty they are reticent to give up.

A tip of my hat - to the Good Lord who brought these young people to you knowing you were just the man to show them that the Satanic cupboard is - bare. Your part may be over (and maybe not) let Providence decide that. It was a gift to you - that Jesus allowed you to assist him for a time. This is a testament to your own good conscience. Keep it clean and reapir anything needed as soon as reasonably possible. If a man stare at the sun he may go blind - if a man stare at his own conscience he may be cured of blindness.

Cheers.
-ray


-ray
Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131071
05/09/05 08:52 AM
05/09/05 08:52 AM
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Eureka, CA
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Dear Ray K, your incident is all too familiar and very true as I have spoken with friends and family of suicide victims. When I was in the Marine Corps, I worked at the Family Service Center, so I learned quickly to be a counsellor and to listen. And Ray, thanks for the support! I had been feeling pretty down last night and this morning your post gave me hope! In God's peace my friend!


Seraphim41
Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131072
05/09/05 09:41 AM
05/09/05 09:41 AM
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RayK Offline
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Dear SERAPHIM41:

After my last involvment with a suicide - I asked God "no more please".

You may already know - blood just does not come out of white carpet.

Now if I can only find a way to reach a local girl who has turned into a cutter... but so far... God has not presented my with the signs to get any more involved than indirectly. Speaking to some who know the girl well - and some who know the parents well.

Asd you can guess - the entire family is a mess! but so far - it is not up to me to be anymore involved than already.

We will see what God may do in the future. I may be 'called' or not. So far it looks like I am just to know about it and not be directly involved. I watch, wait, and pray a bit. I have asked God that if this heads down hill rapidly - to bring her to me. I will not give her the same run around that everyone else is doing. I will quickly get right to the point. Her actions will not change anything... and she is deperate for some type of control over her own 'life force'.

I feel so sad for her and what she has been through - but she has got to know - she is wasting her time. She has to see that she has to decide for herself - what her life is to be next.

Oh - you know the story.

Mention her once or twice for me. I shall be really upset if things go too far and she stumbles into that final act.

So far - I am just a spectator. I have no call to get directly involved. If Providence arranges it - I will jump right in with no fear. If He arranges it - he will do the work needed.

-ray


-ray
Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131073
05/09/05 10:05 AM
05/09/05 10:05 AM
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Hi Ray,

Thanks for telling that story. (Oh, I see you just posted another - but I am referring to the first one on this thread)

Satan's influence is generally more subtle yet such things as you relate certainly do happen and I have seen that type of disception myself. Satan is real (although a spirit without a body - since a fallen angel) and can appear as an "angel of light." not with pointed ears and pitch forks as some may imagine in jest or not. And the evil spirits in his league are real also. God is sovereign and Satan can only do what God allows. Good you said that!

I think Satan's greatest trick is to try to convince others he does not exist.

But as scripture says "Submit yourselves, then, to God, resist the Devil and he will flee from you." [James 4:7]. And your counsel to the fellow worker mentioned above to use the Name of Jesus was perfect. There is power in the Name of Jesus. Amen! smile

Bless your day!

In the Name of Jesus, smile

Porter.

Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131074
05/09/05 11:13 AM
05/09/05 11:13 AM
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Dear RayK, I wish you and I could sit down my brother. I have been a "cutter" since I was in second grade, I am now 41 years old and I co-facilitate which I don't like to use that phrase as I am a "cutter" it has been dormant since 1989, but there are moments when that feeling of the "euphoria" or cutting myself rises to the surface. So far, God hasn't abandoned me and I have through God's help kept it dormant, but it is always there and please understand this young lady probably isn't cutting herself for suicidal ideas, she's in pain over something. The cutting is a release of hurt and anger and from my own experience I felt no pain when cutting myself. In the group I listen and offer my own help from experience, I am the 1% of guys who do this or did this. The girls, ages 14-24 didn't want me in the group and I knew why, they were tired of the priest, the female consellor and another counsellor telling them all the reasons why they shouldn't "cut" me, I did the only thing that would prove I "understand" and "feel" and "know," I removed my shirt, from the moment, even though the priest and counsellor didn't like it, the group quickly accepted me as "one of their own" but it has moved forward and some girls have called me in the night to tell me why they want to "do it again!" I listen as they tell me the same reasons I did it "cutting" all those years. The priest and the female counsellor after six months told me they were glad I was aboard because then they realized they didn't have what I have "the scars and the girls knew I was one of them." I will pray for you my brother and no, I don't remove my shirt that often in front of anybody.


Seraphim41
Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131075
05/09/05 11:21 AM
05/09/05 11:21 AM
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Dear SERAPHIM41:

More...

currently she is back in the system. She just spent a year - away - under lock and key. She escaped - and now they let her go home - where she immediately freaked out and is now - back in the system. And who would n ot have expected this??! A year of almost military life - for someone who feels she has absolutely no control over her life at all. It is nothing but pressure and pressure demand upon demand for her right now. I do hope someone in the system has a breakthrough with her. Someone - has to make a human connection with her.

"paging - a human being!!"

Someone I am close to will be meeting with her parents today … they may - offer that I come and talk with them. I am not a professional - but - I am an acquaintance of the family and - her daughter was over my house last year (I did not know the full story back then). And so God has already made the first connection. Her mother has already indicated she wants to talk with me - we tried once - but it was a public place with a lot of bustle. No other opportunity has presented itself so far.

I would like to know more about the family - but I already know enough - I would just like to confirm what I already know. If the time comes - the time will be right and I will have all I need.

I do NOT want to sit by and watch this thing continue! There is absolutely no need for this kind of mess. But - my own feelings are inconsequential. The opportunity must present itself - by itself. Or I will be banging my head against a wall.

Even if it comes directly - she is very used to people not listening to her... so I will have that to contend with. My own listening ability will certainly be tested.

One has to know the symbolic nature of why - a cutter - cuts herself (mostly women). Then - you need to show the cutter - why - she is cutting herself. And then one must have the courage to go down with her into her soul - and stand there and look around with her. See what she sees. Experience what she has experienced. And let her know she is not alone in this world - you are willing to go “down there“ with her.

Her pain is not her own - it belongs to all of us. We have to find that pain - also - in ourselves - and when we do that - now - hope comes. We can pick up each other’s crosses… we must pick up each other’s crosses.

Is this selfish manipulation of others? (which has gone to the danger level) Or is this self repression and helplessness - gone to the danger level. We do not know the answer until we are let inside.

But we can do none of this unless God arrange it first. God is certainly free to make other arrangements. Our part is to be willing, with courage, and as honest as the day is long - if 'the call comes'.

You know all this. Obviously - I am preaching 'to the choir'.

-ray


-ray
Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131076
05/09/05 11:42 AM
05/09/05 11:42 AM
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Eureka, CA
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Dear RayK, my brother, yes, the girl needs a "human" not "a professional with a degree and a bunch of statistics" understand where I am coming from? Please don't think I'm laying down the law, I'm not please believe me Ray! I've found that parents usually have one side if not at times two sides to what their loved one is ding by cutting themselves, the parents feel "guilt" or "denial" and in a strange sense I met one family that felt both! Public places to me are an invitation to way too may distractions. Some girls come here to my home, they know they have to get their parents o.k. and upon arrival they call their mom/dad to let them know they are here. On three seperate occasions, I had the whole family show up here, I tend to be careful in that I am a single father and I want the girls to know they can come here to talk as I am a 100% disabled veteran and I can't work. RayK, if the time comes and you are called to help, you will do well, many times it takes the "outsider" to open the eyes of the rest of the family, it's what I did when I removed my shirt for the group, they thought I was just "another mouth" to tell them why not to cut themselves. I will certainly be praying for you and the girl and her family today and always. In God's peace and wisdom my brother.


Seraphim41
Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131077
05/09/05 10:31 PM
05/09/05 10:31 PM
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Meriden, CT
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I admit it. I got emotional and upset.

Time will tell what will happen here.

-ray


-ray
Re: Satan/the Devil... where? how? #131078
05/10/05 01:06 AM
05/10/05 01:06 AM
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Wild Goose,
sorry you've been dupped.
Stephanos I

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Moderated by  Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

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