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#133275 - 03/05/05 03:05 AM The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
Myles Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 809
Loc: Oxford, UK
See for yourself:

http://www.church-in-history.org/pages/booklets/farmer.pdf

The author, William R.Farmer, is the author of 'The Gospel of Jesus: Pastoral Relevance of the Synoptic Problem' and editor of the 'International Bible Commentary'
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#133276 - 03/05/05 04:09 AM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
Henry Karlson Offline
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Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 255
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
That piece was an interesting and lengthy ad hominem...

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#133277 - 03/05/05 09:37 AM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
ebed melech Offline
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Registered: 06/09/02
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You know, I've always been bothered by the Markan priority question, if only for the fact that there is no historical proof of the existence of the ever illusive "Q" and that the clear tradition of the Church is for Matthean priority (as upheld by some of the earlier documents of the PBC).

In one of my son's religious textbooks for 6th grade, they actually treat Markan priority along with the Quelle source as if they were established facts, instead of theories. I definitely think that it is a bit over the top for a catechetical resource for 6th graders to be peddling questionable theories as doctrine. (The text makes no distinction between the dogma of the Holy Trinity and "doctrine" of Markan priority.) And what happens if and when the whole myth-making venture of Q is turned over on its head and is rejected by the majority of the Biblical scholars someday?

I am sympathetic to some of the arguments in the article, and believe there are many scholars of good will who do not think through all of the implications of the theories that are being passed down to them. I also think that there are scholars who have an agenda that is contrary to the good of the church they purport to serve. Perhaps some ivory towers should be hermetically sealed...

Is that an ad hominem?

wink Gordo

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#133278 - 03/05/05 10:23 AM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
Henry Karlson Offline
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Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 255
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
The text is aimed at the reasons by which some people want to believe a teaching, not for the reasons why it is believed. These are different issues. One can want to believe the Pope is infallible for the wrong reason (someone wants to be Pope and use the power for their own ends), and still be correct in the teaching. This is why it is an ad homimen.

The article did not go into the critical studies which developed to strengthen the argument. It reminds me of creationists saying "look at Darwin, he was a racist." Even if he were, that says very little. Also it fails to acknowledge that whatever errors Darwin had, evolutionary science is now much different resting on different, more sustained, evidence. The same is with Q.

My own view is that Matthew's sayings of Jesus combined with the early development of liturgy in the church was Q. Mark was the first to write down a story.. this relates with the evidence at hand. Q discussions have merit beecause, when one actually does critical studies, the evidence weighs on for Mark being, of the Gospels we have, the first written down.

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#133279 - 03/05/05 10:37 AM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
Myles Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 809
Loc: Oxford, UK
Dear Henry, W.R. Farmer is one of the leading proponents in the world of the neo-griesbach hypothesis. Indeed, perhaps with Dom Bernard Orchard he is the foremost defender of this stance. He might not have dealt with the textual evidence for and against the Q hypothesis in this article. However, he has done so in numerous books (including one of the titles I mentioned in my first post), debates and university presentations. It was for that reason I mentioned he is an accredited author on the subject and referenced title. A few of these can be easily obtained from Amazon for those who are interested:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=br_ncs_/104-4053037-4335914

Moreover, from my theological studies here at Oxford where the two source theory is overwhelmingly dominant I have yet to find a satisfactory answer as to how historical criticism indicates that Mark was written first. It seems to me that its accepted merely because nobody is willing to challenge it. I mean nobody has dealt with the sheer volume of external evidence in favour of Matthew, or the fact that for instance of the doublets in Mark half can be found in Matthew and the other half in Luke. If Mark was written first then the only plausible explanation for this is that Matthew and Luke worked closely together and split the doublets so there were no overlaps. On the other hand if we follow the tradition of St Clement of Alexandria we can explain this phenomena by saying Mark conflagated the two gospels in the crafting of his narrative. Historical criticism by no means shows the Patristic tradition to be the slightest bit invalid. But if you ask the right questions the Fathers (as per usual) seem to provide the right answers.
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#133280 - 03/05/05 10:41 AM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
Henry Karlson Offline
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Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 255
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
Myles,

As I said, his method in the article is similar to the method of creationists arguing against evolution. Never to the point, but rather, ad hominems and side points.

I did not say he wasn't a published author, nor did I say that other articles or works he wrote he might not have gone in more details. I only referenced that work. I have studied the issue considerably, and Q with Mark as priority is the theory which best suits all the evidence we have.

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#133281 - 03/05/05 10:44 AM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
Myles Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 809
Loc: Oxford, UK
As I pointed out in the case of the doublets. No the Q theory doesnt.
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#133282 - 03/05/05 10:56 AM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
Henry Karlson Offline
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Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 255
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
It seems to be a scriptural fundamentalism which thinks that the Gospels suddenly dropped out of nowhere, without an oral tradition behind them. Q for example relates very well with this fact that behind the Gospels, was a much fuller, richer tradition of stories behind handed down, sayings being spread and discussed. Certainly the early liturgical devleopment, which we can see even in Paul's epistles, would be a source for many of the sayings.

Luke makes it clear in his Gospel he is using many sources and witnesses to write his history. If we have the oral traditions being spread, combined with the foundations of liturgy, it would offer many elements for him to use in the development of his own history and story. That he will take from Mark what Matthew did not is only to say that Luke knew of Matthew, and saw that much of the source material that Matthew's Gospel came from was still not used, and he knew he could include it in his own. This should not be too surprising, based upon the way history was done in the first century. It does not require Luke making any pact with Matthew at all. But it also shows that, if they are adapting from some of the same literature, why also Luke has material not in Matthew. He is capable of using and seeing what Matthew did, but adapt to the community he was writing for, and add from the oral foundations of the faith material he thought significant.

As for Matthew, the priority usually was given to him because it was said he wrote an ARAMAIC sayings Gospel. The Greek we have is not that. But this helps go with the point I made that the Aramaic Matthew + Oral tradition would be Q. Q only is a symbol of a variable, of material we can tell is being borrowed from.. in the same way other text criticism works with ancient documents. It's simple, it works, it shows it works in relation to non-Biblical texts.

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#133283 - 03/05/05 11:30 AM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
Myles Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 809
Loc: Oxford, UK
Its not fundamentalism its hypothesis. Moreover, stressing the sayings part of the quotation on Matthew from Eusebius ignores the fact that the formula is actually 'facts and sayings' and that in those periods such a phrase was often applied to complete narratives. Moreover, I can think of no instance in patristic literature where anybody implied that Greek Matthew was different than Aramaic Matthew. Indeed, the Ebionite Jewish Christian heretics, read Matthew in Greek precisely because as St Irenaeus reports in 'Against Heresies' they saw it as the first and only Jewish gospel. If at any stage Aramaic Matthew was different than Greek Matthew this certainly does not seem to have been known to the Ebionites of the Jewish Christian disapora. I could debate this point further but I have no intention to as I have exams to revise for. However, I would suggest that you not be so quick to assume that because an exegete suggests that Matthew was written first that he's a fundamentalist who despises oral tradition. Especially when he's actually arguing in favour of the most ancient extant tradition.
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#133284 - 03/05/05 12:21 PM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
ebed melech Offline
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Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 5153
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
Isn't using the fundamentalist label an ad hominem attack?

Fairly loaded term, fundamentalism. Historically speaking, I don't think it applies to those who question Q and Markan priority. And it does not necessarily follow that those who uphold Matthean priority believe that the Gospel texts were parachuted in by the Archangel Gabriel.

Gordo

PS: Here's an article I found on Farmer's argument for Matthean priority.

http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/farmer.htm

And another interesting article with Patristic citations on Matthean priority and the use of Matthew by Mark.

http://www.tjresearch.info/mksecond.htm

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#133285 - 03/05/05 02:54 PM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
byzanTN Offline
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Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 5223
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Quote:
I am sympathetic to some of the arguments in the article, and believe there are many scholars of good will who do not think through all of the implications of the theories that are being passed down to them. I also think that there are scholars who have an agenda that is contrary to the good of the church they purport to serve. Perhaps some ivory towers should be hermetically sealed...

Is that an ad hominem?

Gordo
Gordo, I'll bring the plastic, tape, and epoxy cement. wink biggrin You clearly need to brush up on the liberal lexicon. "Ad hominem" = anything that doesn't agree with me. Using it usually provokes use of the "U" word, "uncharitable" = not politically correct. Of course, there is also "modern scholarship" = great pride resulting from learning, often used to discredit anything smacking of religous belief. Now about that ivory tower we need to seal... wink biggrin

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#133286 - 03/05/05 05:00 PM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
Henry Karlson Offline
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Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 255
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
No, ad hominem has a specific character and characteristic: it is the attempt to make an argument based upon qualities of the messenger, not on the message. It attacks the person, and claims therefore the message is wrong. "Hitler was a vile man who had millions of Jews killed. Therefore, when he said he lived on the planet earth, he was wrong." That kind of argument.

Suggesting a label for a methodology or teaching is not in itself an ad hominem. It is not making an argument. If I said, it is fundamentalistic therefore wrong, it would have been. Just saying it is fundamentalistic is however, correct.

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#133287 - 03/06/05 05:42 PM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
RayK Offline
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Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 1259
Loc: Meriden, CT
Quote:
Originally posted by Henry Karlson:
But this helps go with the point I made that the Aramaic Matthew + Oral tradition would be Q. Q only is a symbol of a variable, of material we can tell is being borrowed from.. in the same way other text criticism works with ancient documents. It's simple, it works, it shows it works in relation to non-Biblical texts.
I am not expert on “Q” and know very little about this scenario - but it seems to make sense - the way you explain it.

Certainly - people who heard Jesus went home and wrote down things they wanted to remember - and later these were shared - and then brought together in some compilation way.

-ray
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#133288 - 03/06/05 06:08 PM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
tobit Offline
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Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 160
Loc: California
Glad to see a modern catholic commentary question the Q theory and reduce it to theory rather than fact nowhere is Q mentioned by the church fathers while it is entirely reasonable to suppose they worked with some common oral traditions to suppose that all were just copying and pasting and adding and deleting is to downgrade the unique perspectives of each of the gosepl writers and communites.
Remeber the Q theory is origianlly the work of liberal protestants it did not cathch on in catholic circles at a ppoular level till the New Jerome Biblical commentary promoted it at near gospel truth rather than speculation. Raymond Brown did a lot to liberalize catolic scholarship and buy into Q. The Orthodox and Eastern Catholics have never bought into such invention. In catholic circles many are debunking Q to its rightful status as theory instead of fact. COnsidering the biggest proponents of Q are liberal protestants like the Jesus Seminar guys and Raymond Brown who has polluted catholic seminaries with his tripe I tend to shy away from Q as being fact as in a common written source for all the synoptics that was used as a source of plagerism.
Coudln't the commonalites be because the common turth was the same and the oral tradition in many cases was the same. Q in many senses downgrades the oral tradition of the church being reliable and common. It's like the scholars said tradition varies to much they must have had a common source besides oral teaching.

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#133289 - 03/06/05 06:56 PM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
byzanTN Offline
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Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 5223
Loc: Knoxville, TN
I think you touch on some of my reservations about Q. I will accept Q as a theory, but not as fact. The motives of some of the liberal Protestant scholars you mentioned seem suspect to me. I wonder if those motives were to disprove tradition, rather than establish authenticity, since authenticity can be very difficult to verify centuries afterwards. I have more faith in tradition than in those liberal Protestant scholars, especially since researchers today would die to get their hands on sources that were available to the ancients.

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#133290 - 03/08/05 12:02 AM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
RayK Offline
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Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 1259
Loc: Meriden, CT
Quote:
Originally posted by tobit:
Glad to see a modern catholic commentary question the Q theory and reduce it to theory rather than fact nowhere is Q mentioned by the church fathers
This is from a forum in which is discussed the aramaic versions...

Quote:


Dear friends,
I know there has been a lot of senseless debate on the issue of which came first,
the Greek Chicken or the Aramaic Egg. Well I would like to set the record straight as
far as the earliest Church record of such an issue.
It is recorded that Saint Matthew Levi Bar Khalpi transcribed all of "the Master's
Sayings" in their original Hebrew. And later others translated as best they could this
compilation into Koine Greek so as to create their Gospel narratives.

Now later others took this to mean that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Aramaic,
and later others translated it into Greek as best they could....but this is not what the
testimony says at all. Matthew most probably was Messiah's scribe, and wrote down
His lessons, parables, phrases and debates with Jewish Rabbis, Scribes, Priests,
Commoners and Gentiles as they happened or afterwards at the day's end.

It may be that later when he wrote his Gospel narrative he too used his Hebrew
notes and created his Gospel as we know it. We know that the Judeo Nazaraeans had
a Gospel in Hebrew, called the Gospel of the Nazaraeans...could our Matthew be the
Translation? Matthew's Book of Sayings was written in Jerusalem and used by others
afterwards. Most likely the Greek Matthew Narrative was written and published at
Caesarea.

We do know that Mark wrote his Gospel Narrative based upon Saint Peter's
preaching. And I suppose Peter used Matthew's Hebrew Book of the Messiah's Sayings
as well. The Gospel of Mark was compiled in Rome and written in Alexandria, were it
was published and circulated from.

Luke seems to have used both Matthew's Book of Sayings as well as the Hebrew
Gospel, Mark's Greek Gospel and other eye witness accounts. He wrote his Gospel
Narrative in Greek at Syrian Antioch, where it was published and circulated.

John wrote his Gospel Narrative in Ephesos as a filler, in order to complete the
history and teachings of Jesus not recorded by Matthew or buy any other. His work
was written in Koine Greek from the start.

This is the united testimony of the Ancient Church from Gaul to Egypt, From Greece
to Asia, from Syria to Judea. There is no other testimony other than this.

So much for aramaic primacy...as there is no ancient Syrian or Mesopotamian
tradition that contradicts this...that is until long after the Church of the East
separated Herself from Antioch, and I do mean long afterwards...like the 17th
Century.
It is from a bishop in one of the Eastern churches.

Interesting.

-ray
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#133291 - 03/08/05 01:03 AM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
Jakub. Offline
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Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4198
Loc: Palmdale, California
Thanks Ray,

More to research, more to ponder.

james

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#133292 - 03/08/05 06:30 PM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
ebed melech Offline
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Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 5153
Loc: somewhere betwixt the Alpha an...
Good stuff. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

Gordo

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#133293 - 03/11/05 09:22 PM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
wild goose Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 215
Loc: Britain
I've not the time (nor inclination!) to read every word of the thread, but Markan Priority isn't going to be challenged based upon internal evidence.

Let's look at it from the point of view of the chap whose done that story on McDonald's: Super-size Me!

Matthew is the meatier gospel-- it's heavier-- it's more Jewish (evidence for a later date for sure!) and fancier (another point for lateness). Wouldn't the organisers of the canon be impressed by Matthew?!?! :-)

Mark on the other hand is leaner (pre-editorial earlyness?)-- full of potshots ("and immediately" - Gk. <i>euthus</i>)-- the language is spottier (evidence for an early date?). Why wouldn't the organisers be less impressed with Mark?

The second Gospel has most of the hall<b>Mark</b>s of an early date... wins hands down as far as I am concerned. He he he :-)

The Canon is about 'best foot forward.' Literarily Mark is not best foot forward. Full stop. with every blessing, wg
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#133294 - 03/12/05 03:53 AM Re: The Markan priority the undisputable conclusion of Historical-Critcism
Myles Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 809
Loc: Oxford, UK
I dont intend to start an argument on this subject but I will seize on two of your points. 1) The Jewishness of Matthew is more evidence for its primacy than against and 2) Mark is an excellent writer. His Greek is often odd I admit but his use of Immediately for example is incredibly well crafted. Mark is a story teller, he uses immediately to draw his listeners in and to move the pace of the story along. This creates a contrast with the post centre-section part of the gospel where immediately is used sparingly. It slows the narrative and draws the implied reader into the passion, blow by blow. Its all part of Mark's narrative Christology. Before I began reading Theology I used to think Mark was well not much, but Mark's gospel is so well crafted and conveys so much that I've come to really appreciate his genius.

PS) The organisers of the Canon had a long tradition before them when they finally got down to codification in the 4th century. The arrangement we have today is mainly due to St Jerome's adoption of Origen's arrangement. However, prior to this St Clement of Alexandria gave the order Matthew, Luke, Mark and John. This is what neo-griesbachian scholars argue for (and having read some of their work I'm inclined to agree).
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