The following passage from our link gives the RSV version:

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el."

This version contradicts the LXX or Septuagint by using the term "young woman" instead of "virgin."

We Byzantines, along with most of Christianity, understood the passage to mean a "virgin." This particular verse has been the point of debate, if not polemic, between Jews, Christians, and even Muslims.

Why would the translators of the RSV use another term than the one used by the Jewish translators who came up with the Greek Septuagint?

I would like to invite any commentary on this.

What's going on here? How do we reconcile the two terms? Is there really a contradiction or are there folks out there who are trying to debunk an important Christian belief? Who is this young woman?

Cantor Joe Thur
Deacon-student

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

I remember a lecture on this point in one of my classes on the Hebrew prophets. The professor, a fine Jewish guy, seemed particularly keen on letting us all know that the word for "virgin" in the original Hebrew is almah, or young woman. I think he said that the prophecy of Isaiah in 7.14 was fulfilled by the birth and reign of Hezekiah.

Leaving aside the fact that Scriptural prophecy can have an immediate sense in which Hezekiah is the one prophesied about, and a farther-down-the-line-and-more-important sense in which this is a prophecy about Christ...

Alright, the Hebrew says "young woman", and the Greek Septuagint has "virgin" (parthenos). The Septuagint was translated by Jews before Christ, and so I wouldn't think that they would have a particular point to push by using one word rather than another. So perhaps this translation was destined to be by God. Or maybe not...I don't know. What I do know is that this prophecy was written in a time when "young woman" and "virgin" were synonymous, unlike in our day. So perhaps our desire to be absolutely technical in saying "young woman" rather than "virgin" is our way of reading our situation into theirs? Or perhaps we're trying to "mythologise" or "demythologise" the Scripture? I think it's possibly a bit of both. Oh well...Mary is still the Ever-Virgin Mother of God to me.

Mor Ephrem,

Thank you. I believe one would have to do some research on whether the use of the term "young woman" naturally implies a "virgin" or not.

I would hate to imagine that if the Greek language had a term for young woman instead of virgin that the Jewish rabbis who translated the Torah into the Greek all erred in their translation. Were they that stupid or filled with an agenda to change the meaning?

The choice for "young woman" instead of "virgin" depends on what one wants to emphasize. Naturally, the Jews after 70 AD did not want to emphasize the 'sexual status' of the woman since the Christians made a big deal about the fact that the Messiah would be born of a "virgin." So, the 'age' of the woman was a way of skirting around the issue?

I would think that any "young woman" in Judaism would also be a "virgin" unless one was a prostitute. Jewish law was terribly punitive against young women who got pregnant outside of marriage.

But many in Judaism and Islam will use this particular verse to prove Christianity wrong even though this translation was good enough until the Christians made a deal over it. Personally, I will stick with the Evangelists.

Joe

I consider this an important passage since we Christians use it so much in our theology and also given its history.

I would like to ask the forum participants what term is used in their Bible? "Young woman" or "virgin?"

For those who are interested in participating in this thread, please include two more items in your answer:

1. What Bible version/translation are you using?

2. Can you state what explanation is given for 7:14, such as a footnote (if any) or cross-reference to Isaiah?

If interested, can you share with others anything about the term used (or not used) from your favorite Bible commentary?


Thanks,
Joe

Dear Cantor and Mentor,

Certainly the Jewish-Christian polemics became quite intense and this spilled over into polemics with pagan philosophers.

The Akathist to the Blessed Virgin, written centuries later, reflected this polemic in its attack on the Greek philosophers toward the end.

Catholicos Mor Ephrem's experience with the Jewish lecturer is one that I had as well.

One Jewish professor I had told me that the problem with debunking all Messianic references in the Old Testament as being fulfilled by a certain king or other is that one is finally left with NO messianic prophecies and this certainly contradicts Orthodox Judaism and the theology of Maimonides who definitely expected every Jew to wait for the Messiah ("even though he tarry").

You are right on with your explanation of "Young woman." Language is culturally determined and is its expression. In some cultures where celibacy is not permitted, there is no word for "bachelor."

But the Greek of the Septuagint does use "Parthenos" which clearly means "Virgin."

This is the text the Orthodox Church (including us) goes by.

The Ever-virginity of the Mother of Christ our God points to the Divinity of Christ in the first instance and to His Resurrection from the dead.

"Young woman" may be more culturally precise. But "Parthenos" or "Virgin" is both historically (in terms of usage) and theologically correct.

Alex

This request set me searching.

I discovered that though I use one edition of the Bible , I actually have 3 different ones in the house.

The three terms I find for that particular verse are
1 Maiden -- Jerusalem Bible Popular Edition with very limited foot notes and no cross references
2 Virgin -- Authorised version [ King James ] no foot notes and no cross references
3 Young woman -- New English Bible some foot notes

Personally I prefer the Authorised term - Virgin as it does reflect my view of Mary - ever Virgin. However for normal study I have to stay with the Jerusalem - since that is what is normally used in our Parish.

Unfortunately none of the copies of the Bible that I have are annotated - you have just given me a prod to go and buy a new edition with some good notes for study. I wonder which takes preference - a new Bible or a replacement for my Daily Prayer which has repairs of repairs and is getting to the stage when I think its replacement is almost essential.

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Angela,

The New American Bible (a Catholic sponsored translation) is loaded with cross-references and good footnotes if you wish to study further. The Byzantine Catholic Church in the USA has a licensed agreement to use it for our liturgy with permission to adapt it for our own particular use. There are also some good Catholic Study Bibles too.

In the Byzantine Church we sing at the Akathist to Mary, "Hail, O Bride and Maiden Ever-Pure!" Though the word "virgin" is not used, it is implied.

For a more intense reflection in this area, you can also get ...

"The Complete Parallel Bible with the Apocryphal / Deuterocanonical Books: New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), Revised English Bible (REB), New American Bible (NAB), New Jerusalem Bible (NJB)"

... published by Oxford University Press, Inc. (3,296 pages).

As for making a choice between a new prayer book and a Bible, I would get a new prayer book to continue your prayer life, especially if you already have three Bibles.


Joe

My Bible says "Behold, a virgin shall conceive,..." I use the Cardinal Challoner edition of the Douay OT (w/ Confraternity NT, c. 1949). It has some footnotes and modest cross references. the references for 7:14 are Mt, 1:23 and Lk, 1:31.

I can't wait until the OT Orthodox bible with Patristic commentary comes out (if it is, pardon my ignorence).