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Peace everyone,

I was mulling of this gem from step 26, On Discernment, from St. Climacus' Ladder (p.244-245 Paullst Press, Classics of Western Spirituality translation). I would like to hear the interpretation of those who are a bit more experienced in the ways of spiritual warfare than I:

Quote
Those who wish to discover the will of God must begin by mortifying their own will. Then having prayed in faith and simplicity, all malice spent, they should turn humbly and in confidence to the fathers or even the brothers and they should accept their counsel, as though from God Himself, even when that counsel goes against the grain, even when the advice comes from those who do not seem very spiritual. God, after all, is not unjust. He will not lead astray the souls who, trusting and guileless, yield in lowliness to the advice and decision of their neighbor. Even if those consulted are stupid, God immaterially and invisibly speaks through them and anyone who faithfully submits to this norm will be filled with humility. If a man can express on a harp whatever ails him, surely a rational mind and a reasonable soul can provide better teaching than something inanimate.

Yet this perfect and easy rule is rejected by many for reasons of pride. Instead they have sought to discover the will of God by their own resources and within themselves and have then proceeded to offer us numerous and different opinions on this whole issue.

Some trying to discover the will of God abandoned every attachment. They asked God to be the arbiter of any thoughts they might have concerning the stirrings of their souls, whether to do something or to resist it. They pray hard for a fixed number of days and they laid aside any inclination of their own. In this way they found out what God willed, either through some direct manner of intelligible communication from Him or by the complete evaporation from their souls of whatever it was they had proposed to do.

Others found so much trouble and distraction in whatever they were doing that they were led to think that bother of this sort could only have come from God, in accordance with the saying, "We wanted to come to you once and once again, but Satan prevented us" (1Thess. 2:18).

But there were others who found that a venture of theirs had proved unexpectedly successful, and so they inferred that it pleased God, and they went on to declare that God helps everyone who chooses to do the right thing (cf. Rom. 8:28).

The man who through illumination has come to possess God within himself both in things requiring immediate action and in those that take time will find immediate divine reassurance by the second way.

Wavering judgment and lingering doubt are the signs of an unenlightened and vainglorious soul.

God is not unjust. He will not slam the door against the man who humbly knocks.
Thanks!
(apologies for any typos I didn't catch in sending up this lengthy quote)

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Dear Friend,

Whenever those with more spiritual experience get around to commenting here, I too will be interested in reading what they have to say!

This passage affirms two important precepts of the spiritual life at once: abandonment of one's will and its evil inclinations AND the discernment of God's Will to which we must submit ourselves.

To abandon one's will is no mean feat and we must pray and do ascesis to purify our souls and be open to the Grace to conquer our pride and passions.

We should submit to the counsel of our spiritual Father(s) who truly do speak in the Name of Christ.

Persistence in prayer and self-emptying will ultimately make us more attuned to the Voice of God that is always speaking to us, but the hearing of which we have dulled through vice and spiritual sloth.

This chapter issues to us the challenge to be spiritually alive and attuned to the Voice of God in our lives!

Alex

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Chance Offline OP
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Orthodox Catholic wrote:
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To abandon one's will is no mean feat and we must pray and do ascesis to purify our souls and be open to the Grace to conquer our pride and passions.

We should submit to the counsel of our spiritual Father(s) who truly do speak in the Name of Christ.
Thank-you Alex,

This would seem to tie into the first paragraph from St. Climacus that I quoted originally. Am I correct in thinking that here St. John of the Ladder suggests this is the best and most humble way of discernment? The remaining paragraphs to me, St. Climacus seems to point out that it's more dangerous to go it alone.

Yet, in this day and age it seems to be extremely difficult to find those willing and able to be spiritual fathers. Well, that's at least my experience in the RCC, is it any better in the Eastern Catholic Churches?

Failing to have a trusted Spiritual Father, has anyone used the guidelines St. John of the Ladder mentions in my original post when attempting to discern God's will in some aspect of their life?

Peace

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Dear Chance,

In fact, the danger of relying on oneself is a theme repeated by spiritual writers, including Thomas A Kempis in his "Imitation of Christ."

I've found that nomatter how much I can read and pray to discern God's Will, it is always a "plus" to confide in someone we trust for their spiritual erudition.

I have found that my wife has given me excellent advice lately, making points that I've overlooked and so I confide and obey her now in ALL things!

I don't kiss her hand, or bow with my face to the ground before addressing her, however . . .

At least not yet . . .

Alex

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Chance Offline OP
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Orthodox Catholic wrote:
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I have found that my wife has given me excellent advice lately, making points that I've overlooked and so I confide and obey her now in ALL things!
Lol, well that would certainly make things easier...

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Dear Chance,

So if you don't already have a wife, you just might have to settle for a Spiritual Director/Father.

Try to find one with as much erudition as a wife would have! smile

Wives will always tell you the truth about our moral state - and tell you and tell you and tell you . . . wink

Alex

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Originally posted by Chance:

I was mulling of this gem from step 26, On Discernment, from St. Climacus' Ladder (p.244-245 Paullst Press, Classics of Western Spirituality translation). I would like to hear the interpretation of those who are a bit more experienced in the ways of spiritual warfare than I:

Give me a bit of time and I will explain it to you. In the mean time keep in mind the monastic setting in which this was written (for monks within a monastic community) and any appilcation of it within your own life circumstances will be much diffrent.

Context is very important - one must also keep in mind who the directly intended read was. This was not written for - us (you are not a Greek nor are you living 1500 years ago, nor do you know the Greek the author is using, nor have you the same monastic expereince, etc..).

What he is saying is true (when understood properly) but it is not true across the board for every one at all times.

see you soon.

-ray


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Dear Chance�

We are touching upon a subject which is widely misunderstood, misused, seldom put into proper context, and misguided thoughts about it are held tightly like gold for them who hold them.

But that has seldom stopped me.

First off � (Step 26) the most important item to take with you from this chapter is these�

Quote
3. Discernment [of God�s Will] is [an] undefiled CONSCIENCE and purity of feelings [emotions].

6. After God, let us have our CONSCIENCE as our aim and rule [of conduct and discernment] in all things so that we may know which way the wind blows and set our sails accordingly.
Te Greek word for 'wind' and for 'spirit' is the same word so there is a play on words here that echos our Lord's own usuue of the play.

Now ...with these two ... Climacus said it all in a nut shell. Anything further is ancillary (something that is added but not essential).

If you want to knows God�s Will about any circumstance or situation you may be in - look into your own conscience.

�I myself will write my law ... with my own finger! Upon their hearts.� That is a paraphrase from the OT speaking about the �day� of the Lord. The time of Chritianity.

Well� the Lord came. So divination (used in OT days) and Pharisee and Deuteromic like adherence to the Law - is pass�.

It has always seemed very fitting to me, what Jesus answered to the Samaritan women. Here he and she were - at a time in which the OT church was split in schism (the Samaritan-Israel split from Judah-Jerusalem). It has always reminded me of the arguments of theology between the current divisions of His new churches� each had a temple and each thought themselves more orthodox than the other � and so she asked Him�

�Upon which mountain should we worship?� - the mount upon which the temple of Jerusalem stood - or the mountain upon which the temple of the Samaritans stood?

Which - church - is the true church? Which church is the more orthodox?

To which Jesus answered �The time is coming when those who are really worshiping God - will worship him in - spirit.� Of course that 'time' was initiated with his crucifixtion and resurrection. We are still - in that - time.

Now did that not ? put to rest the question �� which church?�

Let us now clear up the definition os a word. Spirit = mind and heart. The word �spirit� is the Greek word psychic ... which we all know to mean - mind.

Something of the spirit - is an experience of - the mind and not an expeience of the body. Nothing more compilated than that.

And the part of the mind by which we know - what God knows� is called � Conscience.

Con (together) and science (knowledge).

You and God knowing the same thing together.

These things are rather simple but through out the history of Christian spirituality you will find that those (writers and such) who are not really that close to a true spirituality - make it all very cerebral and difficult and complex and complicated - or - through a false piety - make it all seem mysterious and entirely to do with mysterious graces that we can not fully understand (as if the Lord had not already explained all this stuff already). This reminds me of the Exodus where they preferred the complex and spicy food of Egypt to the pure and simple taste of manna.

Climacus is very good. Some think that the writings of any early father are - good and valuable. Not all are. Some of the early writings are nothing more than vain publications of honey like piousness - meant to win the admiration of the population. Poetic manipulation of fine words that go in circles and really says nothing at all - even as well (piously and elegant) as it was all said. If you wish to have people admire you as intelligent of holy - dazzel them to befuddlement.

And so beware - of placing too much value in the writings of just - any - early fathers. Keep in mind that it was proliferation of just such opinions and writings (masquerading as the holy mind of the church) that caused so many early Councils to have been nessesary! to be held and - settle matters. Even if the majority of fathers held one such type of opinion - that was some times over-turned in Council. And so a majority consensus was nothing more than a majority consensus and the true mind of the church (Council result) may be something very different.

I am sure you know all that and I had no need to say it. It is just that reading the early fathers can be as difficult to make real sense out of as reading the bible without knowing the history if Israel, its culture, and traditions.

Climacus - was an abbot. I believe he was abbot of mount Athos - for a time. In any event (no matter where) his writings are from an experienced abbot - directed to - monks. Mostly to his own monks � especially novice ... but it would do future abbots well to read also.

And so his audience is monks (priests and brothers). Abbots (like Climacus) were not necessarily priests. Someone correct me but I do not think Climacus was a priest. So when he says �in confidence to the fathers or even the brothers � you should understand that �fathers� here means elders or the more experienced monks in the monastery. And so we also know by this that he is speaking to novices.

Quote
they should turn humbly and in confidence to the fathers or even the brothers and they should accept their counsel
And so the newbie who has become troublesomely perplexed about something should seek advise from and elder of the community (that is preferred) and if that is not available then seek advise from a brother (the same as you).

Quote
as though from God Himself, even when that counsel goes against the grain, even when the advice comes from those who do not seem very spiritual. God, after all, is not unjust. He will not lead astray the souls who, trusting and guileless, yield in lowliness to the advice and decision of their neighbor. Even if those consulted are stupid, God immaterially and invisibly speaks through them and anyone who faithfully submits to this norm will be filled with humility. If a man can express on a harp whatever ails him, surely a rational mind and a reasonable soul can provide better teaching than something inanimate.
[quote]

Now within the community (Climacus� monastic community) all were sincere and of good heart. Climacus saw to that. Malcontents were sent on their way. And so all members had good intent - even if varied in experience and progress. I think few of us here live in a good monastic community and so we should not just seek advise from - anyone. Our neighbor in his community would be another elder or brother� our neighbor out here in the world could be a pedophile or serial killer or worst - a Republican! (perhaps a Democrat??!)

Note that Climacus prefers we get advise from someone who is well spiritual experienced. But not being able to do that - we (not living in his community) should seek advise from someone we trust has a good heart and good intentions. In other words - a trusted friend.

Now if you need to go to a priest� not all preist are experienced in spiritual growth - not all priests have a good level of sanctification. This is also true of bishops. It would be nice if they did� but throughout the history of the church - it is - hit and miss - to find a �good one�. So pick your priest to chat with. It should be someone you trust. You are not looking to get all the rules recited to you (remember the trouble here that Climacus is talking about is us not being able to tell what our conscience is saying). So our goal is to do a little reasoning all the wile hoping that the clouds across conscience might clear.

Now, of course, if the thing of trouble involves directly some rule and law of the church - you need to speak with a priest to find out the laws and rules of your particular church. And - you need to follow (what he will explain to you) them. But do keep in mind that the no one is made holy by the law - in the sense of one set of laws being any better or less than any other apostolic church. Nor is one made more holy be a tighter observance of rules and laws of theology of any particular church. Jesus made that real clear when he took the Pharisees to task for overly obsessive observance of rules and laws.

[quote]
Even if those consulted are stupid, God immaterially and invisibly speaks through them and anyone who faithfully submits to this norm will be filled with humility.
Notice that above quoted - Climacus is now drawing into the picture - Providence. An immediate Providence.

Now to better understand what he is saying - let me mention a way of doing this - today.

Let us example that you have some very personal problem. It is clouding your conscience. You are upset and can not think well. You feel sure that you need confession - or maybe not?? You are in a spiritual (mental) tizzy. Now say for example that this personal matter - is very embarrassing� and you would not like to tell a friend about it - or any priest that you know well. Now - is that pride?? Or is it true that they (your friend of your well known priest) are still human and such a thing spoken could change their friendship through their own human weakness?? A real - quandary!!

For something like this I would suggest that you go to a church of which you have never meet the priest (easier for a Catholic to do) and say to yourself �Jesus - here I am. I will lay this whole thing out to this priest. I will listen to his advise.. And I WILL do it.� and making that vow to God � go ahead and walk into the church and speak with the priest very openly. And then DO as he says. Even if you do not like what he says.

God is not unjust - he will not slam the door shut on someone who humbly knocks.

Now - notice that I give you the same preference that Climacus does.

1) prefer above all to seek advise from someone who has some solid spiritual experience. And I am not talking about � just intellectual knowledge.

2) failing that availability - speak with a good friend and both of you use some reasoning about the matter.

3) failing the availability of the first two - make your vow to Providence and strike out to speak with a humble parish priest. He does not have to be smart - nor very learned. In fact steer clear of priests who have a reputation for great intelligence or pious or popular. God has a much more difficult time working trough such people. Pick a very humble and low profile church and common priest. Speak with him. Be very open as if this were Jesus you were talking to. Listen intently. And then go out. If what the priest had told you is not against your conscience - DO IT - as if it were Jesus himself who told you what to do.

This is the �secret� of Providence. But this third way should be a rare occasion. God much prefers the first and second ways (someone with experience or some friend with a good heart and good intentions).

Do you want me to explain the rest of your quote of Climacus?


Keep in mind that for Climacus - 1) Providence is alive 2) there is a real and recognizable progress to the spiritual life and that has stages and steps within the subconscious mind 3) discernment - means - knowing what your own conscience has to say about things.

Peace be to your and your church.

-ray


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Dear Ray,

When you say "Which church is the true church?" - St John Climacus would have NEVER intended to mean that!

For him, as for the Church in his day especially, there was no question that there was one orthodox and catholic Church - and everything outside of it was heretical.

He would know which church is the true Church, even though today we would argue about that.

He is, instead, speaking to the manner and spiritual grounding of true worship (which would have presupposed adherence to orthodox doctrine).

Alex

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Ray,

When you say "Which church is the true church?" - St John Climacus would have NEVER intended to mean that!

Alex
To mean - (that!) � what?? I have no idea what you are saying Alex.

Are you saying that he would not have agreed with Jesus??

What is it that you think I was saying in my in my last post� ?

-ray


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... anyway...

Dear Chance...

when Climacus talks about discernment he specifically means discernment by way of conscience. We discern by way of the light of our conscience.

Jesus himself makes this very clear in his parable regarding the light that should not be hidden (under the couch) but should be placed upon a table to light the entire room. It is the light by which we should see every thing and make all our judgments.

Again, Climacus makes this very clear in his opening to this section�

Quote
1. Discernment in beginners is true knowledge of themselves.
This is gained by ascetics and examination of conscience. �I do that which I do not want to do� says Paul. And the reason given is the �law of the members� which was Paul�s way of saying the body. This is equal to our modern term of the subconscious. The seat of desires and passions and so forth. The subconscious levels of mind (spirit) which operate with a will of their own (for what ever reasons and causes).

That now brings us to the subject of �die to self� and dying to own �will�. For this is exactly the �will� that Paul is talking about.

�The law of the members leads to the law of sin� (St. Paul)
�The law of the spirit (mind) leads to the Law of Christ� (St. Paul)

And so the beginner should know something about the way these �laws� work. He needs to know something about how his own subconscious mind influences his motivations and such. How it is that a man can be divided in himself so that he does not do the good he intends to do but rather does the sin that he does not intend to do.

And right here (dead on) is the role of ascetic practices. Self-knowledge. And here is also where the ability of ascetics - ends. For ascetics itself in practice - changes no man. To change a mans behavior � does not change a man�s heart.

Quote
In the intermediate souls it is a spiritual sense [mental intuition] that faultlessly distinguishes what is truly good [for the soul] and what is of nature [emotions and movements of the psychological mind - especially the hidden levels - what we call the subconscious] and opposed to it [that good].
And so what �will� is it that we should mortify??

It is THAT � will � (the law of the members - our subconscious movements and motivations) that should be mortified. It is these �stirrings of the soul� that both Climacus and Jesus are talking about when they say that we must die to self. And the will which we should become is the will expressed by our � conscience.

Those who claim that we need to die to our own will - in a way which makes us mindless robots. Have no clue what they are talking about. They are lost in a labyrinth. It is these who often argue details of doctrines and �which church?� is the true church among the catholic churches� etc� Accusations of �heretic� come easy from them. They are not at the least concerned with good conscience - they are instead all concerned with �correct� - laws - arguments of doctrine - wrongness done to them - etc�

Quote
Yet this perfect and easy rule is rejected by many for reasons of pride. Instead they have sought to discover the will of God by their own resources and within themselves and have then proceeded to offer us numerous and different opinions on this whole issue.
And Climacus goes on to say (about discernment)�

Quote
and in the perfect it is the knowledge which they posses by divine illumination, and which can enlighten with its lamp that which is dark in others
[quote]

Now there ya have it. He is referring to Jesus� own parable about conscience being the light of the lamp which should light up all you do and all your judgments.

Now those who do not make a difference between conscience � and the movements of subconscious motivations� often mistake their own human intuitions and such - for the Holy Spirit.

[quote]
But there were others who found that a venture of theirs had proved unexpectedly successful, and so they inferred that it pleased God, and they went on to declare that God helps everyone who chooses to do the right thing
This of course only cements them into their own spirit and beliefs. Which divides the churches.

Now you should see that what the desert fathers were doing was battle within themselves. �Our battle is in spiritual places� (in the mind and heart). In what we today call - the subconscious.

And our cooperation with our conscience � is the only thing that can put everything back into place and into balance.

It is really all very simple and any sane man already knows how much trouble any other life style brings - except one live by his conscience where God speaks to him at any moment. This (conscience) is where all discernment should come from.

Peace to you and your church.
-ray


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RayK (You're not the Stephen K. Ray, on who's own forum I've spent too much time yammering instead of praying, are you? BTW, I own and enjoyed Upon this Rock if you are he.)

And so beware - of placing too much value in the writings of just - any - early fathers.

I don't think I mentioned any other desert fathers. However, since you brought it up, are there any desert fathers in the Philokalia, you take issue with?

It will take me a bit to mull over your thorough reply. Thank-you kindly for taking the time to write it.

Peace

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No... I do not know who Stephen K is.

You didn't mention any other writings� I just mentioned it because it seemed to me that you are new to reading the early fathers. Just a guess o n my part.

I have read much (but not all) of the Philokalia. I was especially interested in On Watchfullness and Holiness and Hesychios. It is very mush like the Catholic � �Practice of the Presence of God�. The Buddhists have a similar practice and they too call it 'Watchfulness'.

I whole heartedly recommend such books as you are now reading (John Climacus and Philokalis). May I also recommend Pseudo-Dionysius, Gregory of Nyssa, and Symeon the New Theologian. And of course Origen � who almost single handedly laid the foundation of all Christian mystical theology that we have today. Did I mention The Conferences of John Cassian? Cassian was the bridge between the Eastern desert fathers and the later Western church mystical traditions - such as St. John of The Cross.

May I recommend that you stick to the desert fathers as they had no care for the politics of bishops and such and arguments of doctrine - they went right to the �nut� and went head-first into their own spirit (mind and heart) and �fought� the spiritual battles. Men of holinenss and not men of church politics.

You must do a little �translation�. It is mostly � psychology. They did not have the terms we use today. But you will get the hang of it all� in time. What they are talking about is inside - you - however we call these things by different terms today. The terms (as words) hardly make a difference as long as you recognize the �thing� or experience - that the words point to.

Good luck to you. May the Good Lord guide you. He already (apparently) has you looking in the right place.

-ray


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RayK wrote:
No... I do not know who Stephen K is.

Stephen is a former Protestant minister turned big time Catholic apologist. He also hosts an outstanding Catholic forum on the web. See:
http://forums.catholic-convert.com/

Thank-you for your kind words of encouragement. I will continue to mull over your responses.

Peace

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Dear Chance,

However, we shouldn't be into Origen or Gregory of Nyssa without solid Orthodox/Catholic commentary and guidance . . .

Alex

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