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#133720 12/03/03 10:01 PM
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Dear Administrator,

And Paul makes it a point to call Peter "Cephas" or "Rock" as if to underline Peter's status.

The fact that Paul also makes it a point to say that he disagreed with Peter is significant.

Why would he not mention others who doubtless would have shared Peter's views in that matter?

Also, Archbishop Fulton Sheen once wrote that it is only in connection with Peter did Christ use the term "We."

Alex

#133721 12/03/03 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by FrDeaconEd:


That the role of the pope today is not what the Early Church envisioned is pretty much acknolwedged by all.
Not by me.

With all reverence, Fr. Deacon Ed, would St. Clement's letter to the Corinthians make any sense if the Petrine office were "equal" to every other bishop in the so-called "Early Church"?

It doesn't make sense to say that the juridical primacy of the Pope is a mere accident of history that can be done away with just like that. The Pope's juridical primacy, from the first century to today, has always been seen by Catholics as an integral part of the Petrine ministry. St. Augustine was part of the "Early Church," and even earlier was St. Irenaeus, yet they both had some pretty strong words to say about the Universal Primacy of the Pope.

Did the exercize of Papal authority develop over time? Assuredly. Particularly in the temporal sphere. It was there that the Papacy filled the vacuum left behind by the fall of the western empire. Yet, in the ecclesiastical sphere, I believe that the universal jurisdictional/magisterial primacy was always there. IMHO the "primacy of honor alone" position is actually an innovation that resulted from the political ascendancy of Constantinople. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

LatinTrad

#133722 12/04/03 02:37 PM
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Dear LT,

There should be no question that the Bishop of Rome's authority derived from the Apostles - but the notion of jurisdiction nad nothing to do with it.

Jurisdiction was a much later development that first came into being at Alexandria where the term "Pope" was first used (the early Bishops of Rome NEVER used that title).

And the Pope of Alexandria had what can be called immediate and direct jurisdiction not only over every region of his African patriarchate - but over every priest as well.

The Bishop of Rome was first referred to as "His Beatitude" and he originally did not have direct jurisdiction over all of Italy.

In fact, that wasn't necessary for him to exercise his petrine ministry over the entire Church.

The jurisdictional aspect related to his status as patriarch of the West - not his role as Supreme Pastor.

St Clement was a direct student of Peter and Paul, worked closely with them, and when he spoke, he spoke with their authority to defend the teachings that he knew the Chief Apostles would have defended themselves.

St Clement, by the way, was adopted by St Volodymyr as the patron Saint of his Kyivan Rus Empire and he dedicated his royal chapel to St Clement - while St Yaroslav the Wise ensured an icon of him was in his Cathedral of St Sophia.

And Kazachya Bay on the Black Sea has been renamed "St Clement's Bay" in honour of the 950th anniversary of his martyrdom.

Alex

#133723 12/04/03 04:31 PM
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SOrry I don't have time to post a real reply right now.


Alex, what you are saying does not jibe with my reading of even the earliest Fathers.

LatinTrad

#133724 12/04/03 04:35 PM
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Dear LT,

Reading them is one thing.

Interpreting them is quite another!

Alex

#133725 12/04/03 05:57 PM
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One must remember how the Idea of Supremacy came about. In 451 Pope Leo turned Attila the Hun around at the river Po. The Popes prestige grew enormously. At the Council of Chalcedon the Fathers exclaimed "Peter has spoken through Leo. Let him be anathema who believes otherwise".So the popular belief that power granted to Peter had been passed on to his successors took root in the west, latter becoming doctrine.

In 554 on Aug 15 a special edict called the Pragmatic Sanctions was issued by Emperor Justinian gave the Pope cival authority over Rome.Then came the anointing of the Western kings with Apostolic authority for the protection of Rome because Constantinople had to face other invaders from the East and couldnt provide an Army or the such.
Then in 753 Pope Stephen 2nd fled Rome because it was taken by the Lombards.So he anointed Pepin a second time as king and asked Pepin to come to his aid. Pepin invaded and handed over the territories to the See of Peter. Thus originated the Papal claim to absolute power over territories that belonged legally to the Empire.These would become the "States of the Church".
And to add to Supremacy at the accession to the See of Peter, Pope Leo 3rd sent the proclamation documents to King Charlemagne instead of the Emperor of Byzantium. He also sent the keys of the "Confessio Sancti Petri" and the standard of the city.

This is when the seperation really took place between East and West. On Dec 25 800ad pope Leo crowned Charlemagne Emporor of Rome. This broke the single headedness of the empire.In the new west spiritual power had been linked to power of the state and were seen as absolute and this will pit Kings against Popes for centuries and stayed that way untill the great reformation of of continential Europe and the schism of Henery 8th in England.

Now I think that the Papacy has taken on the role that Gregory the 3rd had invisioned "he was Antiochian",he tried to keep Rome above politics and interdependant from cival authority.But the air of Supremacy still lingers in the East and this is what truly needs to be addressed.

My strawman sources include I Legge, JM Hussey,Nicolas zernov,Krauss,Diehl,Joseph Raya

Poorsinner Chad

#133726 12/04/03 06:07 PM
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This Topic again, even im getting tired of it.
Best thing to do is read the Primacy of Peter and the Book the TWO Paths: Papal Monary and Church collegial Tradion.

Daniel

#133727 12/04/03 06:19 PM
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LT,

If you want to see the truth of this, there are several books I can recommend. Try Thomas Bokenkotter's A Concise History of the Catholic Church. Fr. Bokenkotter is both a priest and a historian. There are numerous other sources, but this is an easy read.

Edward, deacon and sinner

#133728 12/04/03 06:57 PM
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I haven't read the first book, but would definitely not recommend the second one. It is very poorly written and weak on the history and theology of the issues discussed.

In Christ,
Anthony

Quote
Originally posted by ByzantineAscetic:
This Topic again, even im getting tired of it.
Best thing to do is read the Primacy of Peter and the Book the TWO Paths: Papal Monary and Church collegial Tradion.

Daniel

#133729 12/04/03 07:01 PM
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Administrator asked:

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The Petrine See is also the Pauline See. Is it reasonable to claim petrine authority on this basis? Iím not clear about this third point and welcome further development of this point.
A point that does not seem to be often mentioned regarding this whole "primacy" thing is Peter's martyrdom. The Petrine confession was sealed in his martyrdom, a martyrdom that was realized in Rome. However, this is also the same site and the same fate (and the same date?)met by Paul.

Earlier Popes received their pontificates in the Basilica of St. Peter and then moved on to the Basilica of St. Paul to complete their installations. Even now, the See celebrates its apostolicity on the feast of the two saints.

The See itself recognizes this duality of Authority. One way to envision this is that, from Peter, the See receives its juridical authority and from Paul it receives its moral authority. One without the other is "like the sound of one hand clapping" (Oh, wait, wasn't that from the Buddha?).

from "The World According to John and the Buddha"

John

Point for Reflection: Could it not be said that the rock on which Christ was to build his Church was on Peter's martyrdom, the ultimate demonstration of faith?

Now talk amongst yourselves.

#133730 12/04/03 07:20 PM
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Yeah but St. Augustine makes clear that the primacy of the Roman see does NOT come from Paul at all, but from St. Peter, who bade his successor to sit on the same seat on which he had sat.

LT

#133731 12/04/03 08:15 PM
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LT,

As you know, the Latin Church's teaching holds that we do not look at a single Doctor of the Church or a single Church Father for authoritative teachings. The Church incorporates what is appropriate from the whole spectrum of those who have lived in Faith before us. Augustine brings a particularly Latin approach since he was more Latin than Eastern.

If one examines all the Church Fathers, then there is a certain primacy that belongs to Rome, but it is not juridic in nature. At the same time, this primacy is more than just one of honor (a point I did not make clear earlier).

Edward, deacon and sinner

#133732 12/04/03 08:31 PM
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LT wrote:
Yeah but St. Augustine makes clear that the primacy of the Roman see does NOT come from Paul at all, but from St. Peter, who bade his successor to sit on the same seat on which he had sat.
LT,

Who is St. Augustine? Should we have heard of him? biggrin

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#133733 12/04/03 08:41 PM
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Dear Administrator,

Yes, I think he is the patron of Hippo's (?) wink

Alex

#133734 12/04/03 08:42 PM
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Dear Admin:

Touche!

(I did not know you had a healthy sense of humor!)

Does Bl. Augustine ring a bell? biggrin

AmdG

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