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#133735 12/04/03 09:00 PM
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Dear Amado,

Not every Orthodox tradition refers to "Blessed Augustine."

An Orthodox priest told me that the Greeks refer to him as "St Augustine the Great."

(And what did you think of my quip above? Don't you believe in giving people equal time?)

Alex

#133736 12/04/03 09:12 PM
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Dear Alex:

I know yours was the better repartee!

It just so happened that your rejoinder was posted a minute, or less, before mine registered.

Now, are you mollified, BIG GUY? wink

(The ambience of the Forum oozes with Santa's jollity when you and the good Admin are on a ping-pong friendly exchange! biggrin )

Oooops!

Amado

#133737 12/04/03 09:17 PM
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Dear Amado,

When the Administrator calls me up on the carpet, I know I've deserved it.

Most times, that is . . .

Fad saol agat! (Gaelic for "many years!")

Magandang Gabi (Filipino for . . . well, you know!).

Alex

#133738 12/05/03 02:06 AM
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Fr. Deacon Ed's last post reminded me of another dimension that has caused me consternation.

When many Orthodox discuss the faulty union at the Council of Florence, they rightly bring out that the Council was not ratified by the faithful, that history did not bear it out as a truly ecumenical reunion. The argument, then, as I see it, is that, ultimately, reveals the true faith.

Well, if this is so, can the same not be said about the vaulted Pentarchy. The Sees of Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Constantinople have not exactly kept pace with Rome. In fact, it can be (and has been) argued that other Sees have surpassed these in status and importance.

John

Not trying to be polemic, just a Byzantine Catholic trying to understand his place in the world.

#133739 12/08/03 05:18 PM
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For a current debate between an Orthodox Catholic and a Roman Catholic regarding this very subject access -

http://www.geocities.com/joeswaydyn2000/orthodoxcatholicdebate.html

OrthoMan

#133740 01/02/04 06:55 AM
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This is a topic that greatly interests me. I must confess that I do not have all the answers. I continue to study and learn, prayerfully.

What concerns me is the idea of authority in the Church.

We Orthodox point to ecumenical councils as the supreme authority in the Church. We seem to be willing to accord the Pope of Rome no more than an honorific primacy, and some of us expend a lot of time and energy finding fault with popes past and present, even to the point of adopting some ridiculously Protestant arguments.

But what of councils?

Besides those recognized as ecumenical there have been many many other councils and synods, some outrageously heretical.

How does one discern the genuine ecumenical council from the false?

I've read that one can tell a true ecumenical council when it is "ratified" by the whole Church, clergy and laity.

But how does that occur?

Hold a council, wait a couple of hundred years, and see if everyone accepts it?

And what constitutes the "whole church?"

A significant portion of the baptized faithful rejected Ephesus 431 and followed the teachings of Nestorius.

An even larger portion held (and still hold) the Latrocinium (Ephesus 449) as ecumenical and rejected (and still reject) the Council of Chalcedon (451).

And what of the various synods called by the Arianizing emperors of the 4th century, synods that were endorsed by loads of supposedly Orthodox bishops? A couple of those synods condemned St. Athanasius and several other truly Orthodox Catholic saints.

It's all very confusing.

In 474 the usurper-Emperor Basiliscus pressured hundreds of bishops to sign his imperial letter, The Encyclion. Here is some of what it said:

"We decree that all the bishops of the world shall anathematize, and give to the flames, the Tome of Leo and all that was done at Chalcedon in the matter of faith . . .

For we are satisfied with the doctrine and faith of the apostles and of the holy fathers, the three hundred and eighteen bishops; to which also the illustrious Council of the one hundred and fifty in the Royal City, and the two other holy Synods at Ephesus adhered, and which they confirmed."


That monstrosity was signed by hundreds of otherwise Orthodox bishops and not just by Monophysites, yet it condemned an ecumenical council (Chalcedon), not to mention the famous Tome of Pope St. Leo the Great.

So how would the average believer alive at that time stop his head from spinning?

How did he choose whom to believe?

At Chalcedon the papal legate Lucentius said one of the problems of the Latrocinium (Ephesus 449) was the fact that it was held "without the authority of the Apostolic See, a thing which had never taken place nor can take place." The other legate, Paschasinus, referred to the Apostolic See (Rome) as "the head of all the churches."

None of the Fathers assembled at Chalcedon rose to contradict these statements. In fact, they all praised Pope St. Leo's Tome, saying, "Peter has spoken through Leo."

I have not reached any final conclusions and am mostly posing questions and musing out loud.

But the Petrine Primacy makes sense to me as the locus of Catholic unity. I know I will get jumped on for saying that, but it does make sense.

Otherwise how does one know whom to believe?

What is the process for ratification of a council?

How does one reconcile a ruling by one set of hundreds of bishops with an apparently contradictory ruling made by another set of hundreds of bishops?


Not only in faith, but also in works, God has given man freedom of the will.
- St. Irenaeus
#133741 01/02/04 05:27 PM
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Gentlemen,
Maybe you now see the "need" for an authority in the Church. As you know we acknowledge as an Infallible Oecumenical Council, those received by the Pope of Rome. We really need to re evaluate his postion from a more diligent study of the Sacred Scripture and the Tradition of the Church.
There is more there than most people realize.
I would say "Universal Jurisdiction" yes, but maybe we need to move beyond that and set a new parimeter as to how that is exercised in and with the entire Church.
Stephanos I

#133742 01/05/04 02:37 AM
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I am rather surprised that this topic has gone so quickly dormant.

Recommend some books on this, someone!

I have already read Michael Whelton's Two Paths: Papal Monarchy - Collegial Tradition (twice) and James Likoudis' The Divine Primacy of the Bishop of Rome and Modern Eastern Orthodoxy: Letters to a Greek Orthodox on the Unity of the Church (a powerful book).

Got any more good ones to suggest?


Not only in faith, but also in works, God has given man freedom of the will.
- St. Irenaeus
#133743 01/05/04 05:05 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Linus:
I am rather surprised that this topic has gone so quickly dormant.

Recommend some books on this, someone!

I have already read Michael Whelton's Two Paths: Papal Monarchy - Collegial Tradition (twice) and James Likoudis' The Divine Primacy of the Bishop of Rome and Modern Eastern Orthodoxy: Letters to a Greek Orthodox on the Unity of the Church (a powerful book).

Got any more good ones to suggest?
This one is very historical, as it was published in the 19th century. It has been republished and is available through St. Nectarios in Seattle, a HOCNA church.

The Papacy, by Abbé Guettée

#133744 01/05/04 06:00 AM
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A critique of Abbe Guettee's book:

http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/guettee.html

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

#133745 01/05/04 03:44 PM
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Here is a fairly good article
http://www.medugorje.com/catholic/infallibility.html


"A Light In The Darkness"
The primacy of Peter is a binding force in the Church. It is this force that keeps unity not only among the laity and priests, but also among the bishops. The office of Peter is to the Church as cement is to the bricks in building.

#133746 01/06/04 02:10 AM
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I read over that essay by the Abbe Guettee once before on the internet. It is pretty standard anti-papacy stuff. I think most of it was repeated in Whelton's book. I might give it another look when I get the chance, and I will definitely look at the critique of it.


Not only in faith, but also in works, God has given man freedom of the will.
- St. Irenaeus
#133747 01/06/04 03:09 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by DTBrown:
A critique of Abbe Guettee's book:

http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/guettee.html

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com
Good article, DT. There's some other good stuff at that site, as well.

Thanks.

Rose -

Thanks for your link, as well.


Not only in faith, but also in works, God has given man freedom of the will.
- St. Irenaeus
#133748 01/08/04 03:21 PM
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Dear Friends,

Yes, I remember that book . . .

If one were to offer a critique of papal critiques it might include the issue of the fantastical nature of some of the things raised by those with an axe to grind against Rome.

Everything from "Pope Joan to Constantine the Great" is thrown at the popes as if these things were proven historical facts.

And yet very little is done to show how at Ecumenical Councils the Eastern hierarchs's praise of the popes of the day knew no bounds.

In fact, if anything, there was a need for the role of a pope as referree in the ongoing struggle between the Byzantine Emperors and Patriarchs, as well as on the score of theological debates and heresies - as Meyendorff shows on more than on one occasion.

One may legitimately argue about the character of papal jurisdictional powers and how they developed over time.

That is not the same as dismissing the papacy completely.

That truly is throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

Alex

#133749 01/10/04 06:52 PM
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Good article, DT. There's some other good stuff at that site, as well.
Thanks for the comments. BTW, the website is back up. The server was down for a few days for system upgrades.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

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