Newest Members
Cavaradossi, Roman Interloper, ftbond, NitaMacdonald1930, SOL, etomaria, Kostyantyn, Benny, Ivanov325, DocH, andria, Joe Smith, CanuckK8, AJG80, gzt
4464 Registered Users
Who's Online
5 registered (seraphion, babochka, jjp, griego catolico, Curious Joe), 174 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Pascha Dublin 2012
Centennial of the Eparchy of Hajdudorog
Hierarchial Divine Liturgy at Holy Trinity Cathedral OCA SF
OLF: What a difference a day makes...
Easter Sunday - Pascha - Velik Den- St. Michael's, Binghamton,NY
Forum Stats
4464 Members
26 Forums
30142 Topics
373591 Posts

Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
Topic Options
#133775 - 02/12/02 11:10 PM Isaiah 1:19-2:3
Joe T Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 2927
Loc: Ohio
Just a quick reflection on a part from Tuesday's reading from Isaiah (1:19-2:3). What caught my attention were the last few verses of Tuesday's reading (vv.2:1-3) and the first verse of Wednesday's reading (v.2:4). In these four verses there is a chiasm that speaks of an "ascent' and a "descent.' Let me explain what a chiasm is because this type of structure in the OT is a popular literary tool used by the authors.

We have here the following:

A The LORD establishes his house on the mountain (Zion).
….B Many people go up the mountain to the house of God.
….B' The people come down from the mountain to teach his ways (Torah).
A' The result of this teaching: peace (“they shall beat their swords into plowshares&#8221 )

The last verse has been the banner of many systems of ethics. How can we know that any social program is based on God's teaching and not ours? Isaiah gives us the ideal. Can this ideal be reached? How do we get there? What is the perfect mix of personal responsibility and social/communal welfare?

From A to B we ascend; from B' to A' we descend. These four verses give us the ideal for we know that warfare and lack of "knowing' the LORD and His ways is never fully realized. Isaiah goes on from 2:5 on through the next two chapters telling us how we are to attain this ideal. In tomorrow's reading, we hear how the people are very "low' (2:9); another judgment call. We are such jerks!

Yet the 'ideal Jerusalem' is presented to us. I cannot help thinking of our hymn where we sing, "Shine in spendor, O New Jerusalem." Is this New Jerusalem Mary? the Church? Zion? We sing it but do we make any connections? Is the State the New Jerusalem where the ideal will be attained? What does this ideal mean to you?

BTW, you can also see Isaiah's words in Micah 4:1-3. Micah 4:4 has a different ending but can be found scattered throughout Isaiah (see Isa 1:20; 40:5; and 58:14). So, who borrowed from whom? Just a technicality that some of us enjoy pondering.

One of the traditions in Byzantine-Slav temple is its location. Most, if not all, temples are built on the highest ground near the village. Ideal? Not convenient? Otpusts are also pilgrimages to a "mountaintop.'

Cantor Joe Thur
Deacon-student

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Top
#133776 - 02/13/02 10:52 AM Re: Isaiah 1:19-2:3
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6075
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
I was just about to start on Isaiah 1:19-2:3 when I found you had started your own reflection on 2;3. Obviously this time lapse is going to give me some problems.

I started by looking back to 1:11 which I realised, was to my mind a call to repentance - maybe metanoia vv16-17 "Cease to do evil, learn to do good, search for justice, help the pressed, be just to the orphan,plead for the widow" and then followed by the promise that our sins will be forgiven - but this time followed by the 'carrot' "If you are willing to obey....."
Then I moved forward to the description of Jerusalem - and he returns again to the orphan and widow[v23]. As a result we are presented with the purifying of Jerusalem using the refining of silver as an example.

Your own reflection about going up and coming down, also brought to mind Moses coming down with the Law and, I'm not quite sure why - Jacob's ladder.

This study is going to be very good for me as , I can hear a few sharp indrawn breaths here, we do not seem to have organised Bible Study groups here - certainly not in my Parish - I must gently suggest it.
Please forgive the muddled thoughts of a Latin sinner here - Ash Wednesday has got to me.

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Top
#133777 - 02/13/02 04:13 PM Re: Isaiah 1:19-2:3
akemner Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 494
Loc: Clarence, IA
Is 2:1-4--an end times prophecy, i.e., our times, the time from Pentacost to Parousia. I see a lot of meanings for this passage. The house of the Lord is His Temple. The mountain of the Lord is Zion, the New Jerusalem. Now with these two definitions, we can say many things. The New Jerusalem, in one of its definitions, is the Church. The Church proclaims the Law (Scripture and Tradition) and the Word of the Lord (could be the Divine Mysteries, Grace- the Energies of God; but definitely Jesus to me) issues forth from it (v. 3). Here we have the first idea of the conversion of the Gentiles, and the Era of Peace (the Kingdom of God) described in Apocalyptic sources.

Another definition of the New Jerusalem is the Mother of God. In this light, She is the mountain exalted above the hills (cf. Lk 1:46-55). How often have we have seen countless multitudes "go to the mountain" on pilgrimage to the various shrines and places where her miraculous Image is enthroned? She bears Christ to us, the Word of the Lord from this New Jerusalem. She also leads us to Him, giving us an example of Faith, Humility, and Obedience (among numerous other Virtues) by which we may learn.

The House of the Lord is also our Temples (churches). We place these on the highest part of our locale as a light to the world of what we profess. It reminds us of the journey to the Lord, that we must constantly struggle and strive to reach that height. In effect, we walk out physically our spiritual path. We go to these Temples that we may purify the Temple of the Holy Spirit, that is, change the "the dumb manger of our souls" into the Holy of Holies and the Seat of our God.

Top
#133778 - 02/13/02 04:36 PM Re: Isaiah 1:19-2:3
akemner Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 494
Loc: Clarence, IA
Is. 1:20-31.

We begin with a warning of what shall happen to us if we do not accept the Blessing and a reminder of who is in charge. Our souls are aden of thieves; we love not that which is good. We have defiled the Image of the Creator by running after worldly enticements, beieving we deserve them. We trample upon Justice, and we gladly wallow in impurities. We shall be destroyed by our own selfishness and hate as that makes us enemies of Love. We shall be cast into the fire along side of the neon gods we have made. This is the warning to us if we persist in our foolishness.

An important image in Isaias is that of dross. Dross is an impurity in silver that must be burnt out. If teh dross does not come out, then teh silver is worthless and ustbe thrown out. That will be imprtant when we get to Is 14.

Top
#133779 - 02/13/02 05:56 PM Re: Isaiah 1:19-2:3
Joe T Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 2927
Loc: Ohio
Angela,

Your mention of 1:23 is so relevant, especially with what is going on with Enron, where scandal seems to be in the air. Of course, all are innocent until proven guilty (that's assuming they can find any un-shredded evidence frown ).

v.23 "Your princes are rebels and companions of thieves.
Everyone loves a bribe and runs after gifts.
They do not defend the orphan, and the widow's cause
does not come before them."

How about them folks at Enron with all those deflated 401(k)'s?

That which makes the 'trial scene' not a trial scene is that there is no verdict or judgment yet. In Isa 1:19,20 the LORD wishes to "argue it out" with us. We have the choice to OBEY (and eat the good of the land) or REFUSE and REBEL (and be devoured by the sword). We are still in the early part of Lent; we still have the choice.


Joe

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Top
#133780 - 02/13/02 06:04 PM Re: Isaiah 1:19-2:3
Joe T Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 2927
Loc: Ohio
Akemner,

Your descriptions of the New Jerusalem as the Church or Mary are good. It seemed that all of the above are true in some sense.

We have here the workings of tradition in a biblical sense. A notion is developed and reshaped over time. We see this in the New Israel, another typology. Whereas the New Jerusalem could mean the Church or the People, the New Israel was represented by the Apostles. They knew no 'geographical' boundaries. It was basically the teaching of God's Law and Word and the inclusion of the Gentiles.

Joe

Top
#133781 - 02/14/02 11:36 AM Re: Isaiah 1:19-2:3
Joe T Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 2927
Loc: Ohio
Akemner,

Dross is a good analogy. I work in the steel industry with a company that engineers and manufactures galvanizing lines. I've seen dross. It's real scum. :p Hence the reason for air wipes. Would air wipes make a good analogy for the Holy Spirit? biggrin

Joe

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Top
#133782 - 02/14/02 06:06 PM Re: Isaiah 1:19-2:3
akemner Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 494
Loc: Clarence, IA
Thank you Joe. The significance of dross was pointed out to me by a Greek Orthodox friend of mine who was a Presbyterian Minister for 26 years. I wish I had his love for Scripture and mind to retain it. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is the "air wipes" of God. I cannot say definitively, as I do not know what air wipes are (a hint from a backwaters kid in "the hinterlands of our nation" wink )

Top
#133783 - 02/14/02 07:18 PM Re: Isaiah 1:19-2:3
Joe T Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 2927
Loc: Ohio
Akemner,

Let me explain the air wipes thing. When a sheet of steel strip is dunked into a pot of hot zinc to be 'galvanized' there are chances of blobs forming on the strip. So, big huge air wipes (jet nozzles with an even stream of air passing through them) are blown onto the strip coming out of the galvanizing pot to blow off dross or blobs and allowing an even coat of zinc on the strip. In the pot itself, the melted zinc may come together into blobs that float on the surface (dross) and therefore must be removed by scraping them off using a dross remover done by hand or automated. When making steel it is the garbage that floats to the top in the molten stage. Must be removed or you get poor quality steel.

From the son of parents who came from the 'hinterlands' of Pennsylvania,

Joe

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Top



Moderator:  Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright - 1996-2012. All rights reserved.