Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

I know many here have disputed me on the issue of our alliance with the Protestant churches, and the idea of the separation of Church and State here in the States. The following article from the Detroit News helps to substantiate my point.

Also, the main protagonist in this stroy is a Chaldean Catholic.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

The article describes this church as Pentecostal. Not all evangelical Protestants are Pentecostals, and I don't even think most Pentecostals would describe Catholicism as "witchcraft". (A cult, maybe, but not witchcraft. )

Dear Yuhannon,

I always had issues with the pentacostal churches. They are elitists, and I don't like elitists. They proslytize rather than edify.

I recall many years ago seeing Jimmy Swaggart leaping all over the stage on TV. It amazed me because all he did was bash the RCC. Frankly I couldn't understand how he could be a Christian, and yet continuously bash another Christian faith. Well we all saw what happened to him.

There are other Evangelicals though that belong to other denominations, such as Billy Graham and Pat Robertson that will never critisize another Christian faith. Actually, Pat Robertson praised the Pope on many occasions.

Zenovia

Yuhannon

I would agree with you that in many instances Evangelical Protestants regard Apostolic Christians as non-believers, but I do know of many exceptions. With the continuous proliferation of Protestant sects, one sometimes has difficulty keeping up with the particular teachings of each individual church.

By your same definition, would you not agree that Islam and Judaism should also be included in the Not Our Friends category ?

Shlomo Lawrence,

I try to be very careful in my language. That is why I used the term alliance. What I question is many seem to think that just because we are allies on certain issues that we will all join hands and sing Kumbaya.

I think a great example of what I am saying are some of the points that Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the Union for Reform Judaism has made. Here are a few:

...what the Christian right has been doing and saying is very, very troubling; that if left unchecked it might pose serious problems for Jews and for America as we understand it...

If Jews feel that what they say and do might be harmful to American and Jewish values and interests in the longer term, then we must speak out. As a matter of tactics and of principle, it would be a terrible mistake to remain silent.

And there is something to worry out. I worry about the tone of intolerance that emanates from so many of their spokespeople. I worry about their view of "Judeo-Christian values" that emphasizes sexual sin while ignoring the needs of the poor and the the oppressed in our midst; this distorts both Jewish and Christian sources. I worry about their cavalier attitude toward church/state separation. Let's remember that the stricter view of separation that emerged from Supreme Court rulings in the early 1960s coincided with the rapid advancement of Jews and their acceptance into American society. This is no coincidence. If the wall of separation begins to crumble, Jews will be among the first to feel its affects.

My point is, and has been, that we should not sell out our values and standards in order to maintain our alliance.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Yuhannon

I think the rabbi's comments are really off base when you consider that some of the worlds most loyal Zionists are Evangelical Protestants in the United States. Some even support the idea of a greater Israel that stretches to the Tigris and Euphrates (an idea that has probably been abandoned by 99 pct of Zionists in Israel). Televangelist John Hagee has stated that Jews have an eternal covenant with God and are not required to believe in Jesus Christ as there Saviour. Others like noted authors Hal Lindsey and Dave Hunt are extremely pro-Israel and strongly anti-Catholic.

I think within the entire spectrum of Evangelical Protestantism in America, there exists everyone from those who think we're nice folks they can agree with on many issues, to those who believe we're part of a sinister worldwide movement that was designed to persecute "true believers".

Unfortunately in the realm of Protestantism, there is a wide spectrum of belief and thought. I would find it difficult to find two plus Protestants that would hold the same teachings and beliefs regarding dogma, let alone the Church.

Maybe that is why a number of people in the Protestant realm have difficulty in following the church of the apostles. In their train of thought if you do not agree with something you start another church that will agree with your thoughts and beliefs.

I find this sad and a poor commentary on what many see as Christianity today here in America.

Just my humble opinion.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

My two cents on it. I don't think Catholics or Orthodox should ally themselves with Evangelical Protestants at all. While I understand that the Religious Right is bringing Faith into the community forum again, and fighting for life (unborn life, anyway), I think that it is bad news for us to get in with them. Simply put, we do not believe the same things as them in any way. Catholics should certainly differ in terms of this Intelligent Design nonsense, a very Masonic view of God. Plus they dispise our devotion to the Theotokos, which is a fundamental part of our Faith.

Most evangelicals I've known scorned my Faith and have tried to convert me. Sadly, they are one who need saving, in my opinion.

I certainly agree. I asked an evangelical once about why there were so many church splits and her view was that this is how new churches get started and that this was what God allowed so that would happen. This did not reflect a stability of praxis or belief to me.

Usually from what I have seen it is an authority issue or doctrinal difference between leaders and one or more decides to leave and begin another church. This is how many city "Christian Centers" have begun. Sometimes after a while they may split too and then some will start another independent church and so it goes.

Isn't Dubya's base (George W.) largely made up of Evagelicals?
I grew up in a rural area where there were many Evangelicals. Frankly, I'm alarmed by Evangelicals, who seem to be much more interested in Old Testament prophecies than the teachings of Jesus Christ - they seem to be all too ready for war, rather than following our peaceful Lord. In many of their churches the Gospel isn't even read weekly; rather, they jump around all through the Bible. Also, many do not say the Lord's prayer during their services.
Mainline Protestant churches follow the church calendar, are more liturgical, and say the Lord's prayer.

Dear Wolfgang,

Yes, to some, the Lord's Prayer smacks of Liturgicalism . . .



Alex

It seems to me that we must be careful about judging all evangelicals on the basis of the unacceptable behavior of one evangelical (or group of evangelicals). The behavior of the Pentecostal group in the new story cited by Yuhannon is clearly unacceptable.

Yes, there are certainly some Evangelical Protestant Christians who do not recognize us as Christians. Of these there is a subset that considers us to be evil. For the most part, it seems that most Evangelical Protestant Christians view us as Christians while having major problems with our theology. I have run into a few of the latter in my workplace and, after a bit of dialog and education, they have changed their minds.

The larger issue here (at least for me) is not that some Evangelicals may consider us evil, but that - for the most part - Evangelicals are good and holy people who are honestly striving to serve the Lord. The bigger fight is not with them over theological matters but against the secularists and atheists in the ongoing culture wars. There are several very good organizations in which Catholics and Evangelicals are working together to positively influence the moral culture of our society. Neither group can succeed in these culture wars by itself. All (including religious and even some non-religious non-Christians) must work together.

There is a very old story about President Abraham Lincoln in which one of his advisors asked him what he thought about a particular general. Lincoln had responded with a very positive analysis of that general’s talents as a military commander. The advisor was open-mouthed and responded with “But Mr. President, the general has absolutely nothing positive to say about you and really hates your guts.” Lincoln replied: “You did not ask me to recount what he though of me. You asked me what I thought of him.” In the end, Lincoln found a way to use the talents of man who disliked him in serving a larger goal – winning the War Between the States.

I think that it is always best to ignore what people may think about us and establish a good working relationship. In that working relationship they will have the opportunity to see the example of our lives. If we are honestly striving to follow the Lord and witness the Christian life from within the Church they will see that.

A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. (Proverbs 15:1)

Dear Administrator,

When I was in Catholic high school (I forget who the President was then . . .), there was a kind of "ecumenical mind-set" in place that saw Catholics and Protestants as being in agreement on "fundamentals" but just that Catholics went "beyond" what was "basic" and common to all Christians.

This is why we had the RSV-CE and it was explained that there was a bible that all Christians had in common, but that the Catholic Church added these extras.

We all believed in this and that, but Catholics went further to say that and this.

The problem with that view, as I and my friends saw it, was that it gave the impression that it was the Catholic Church that was being a "problem" in the ecumenical movement and that if it abjured its "obstinate opinions" on various matters, full unity could be achieved under a democratized papacy.

We also were led to believe that Protestants saw us Cath'lics as Christians who "accepted more than was absolutely necessary for salvation according to the scriptures."

Even the NO Mass was seen as a movement toward a "common Liturgy" that already reflected a common Christian religious culture, Mass, Hours etc.

The differences between Caths and Prods were glossed over and, after a while, one thought that we were all just one big happy Christian family.

Alex

Alex,

Glossing over real issues is never the answer (whether in learning to cooperate with our Protestant Brethren or in our own daily lives). I would reject the approach you have provided (and hope nothing in what I wrote above led you to conclude that that was what I was proposing).

It seems to me that we need to acknowledge both what we do hold in common and legitimate differences, then use what we hold in common as the basis for a working relationship. This will differ when working with the different groups of Protestant Christians because a good many have rejected Christian morality.

Admin

As usual, when we are discussing religious issues [as opposed to say, politics or economics ] the Administrator and I are in complete agreement.
Generalizing about groups based on the actions of a few is never wise; certainly there are enough obnoxious Catholics and Orthodox to merit Protestant hostility if that were the case [after all, there are folks here on the forum who think all Protestants are going to hell...]
To a large extent whether a given group is "on our side" depends upon what we are up against.
Thus in Latin America, Evangelicals would be the opposition, as they try to wean people away from the Church.
In secular America, they would be allies against the forces of unbelief.
A caveat, though: in the 80s the nascent prolife direct action movement experienced great growth with the influx of Evangelicals. However, in the long run this was not a good thing. The whole tenor of the movement changed from peaceful to confrontational [aside from Joe Scheidler the early Catholic prolife direct action movement was largely composed of pacifists and other veterans of the peace movement who emphasized love and nonviolence.]

So: welcome them as co-workers, but don't turn over the steering wheel. In the end, the movement floundered under the leadership of Randall Terry and his cohorts, and self-destructed.
-Daniel