The reason why there aren't that many Byzantine teenagers *could* be because the Byzantine religion is so strict. Being a Roman Catholic is so much more...well, its like you can breathe better.

There are so few teens in any Byzantine church because when a family is searching for a church if they have a teen, they probobly wouldn't choose a church with little or no teens...Am I right?

My Byzantine church has about 10 kids between the ages of 12 and 18 (counting my brother and me). About 8 of those kids would rather be Roman Catholic, probobly because they want to be a part of something bigger and more well known and more modern.

* * * * * * * * * * *
Please remember this is all just coming from a teens point of view. All my words are based on what I know about my youth group.

~Elizabeth W.

Elizabeth,
Christos Voskrese! Voistinu Voskrese!
I really can't believe how you refer to your own faith. As a fellow byzanTEEN, you should talk up your faith. I know you were only saying what you think, but you make it sound like being byzantine is torture. The churches rules can be considered somewhat strict, but they could be much worse. If you're referring to the fact that we fast two days a week during lent, you should be glad we still don't have the rule of not eating meat at all during lent. All of mother churches rules and regulations are for our good, and for the good of our souls. I think it is better that we be to strict, rather than to relaxed.

The lack of youth in our parishes is due to irresponsible adults, who do not bring their children to church, or who leave the Byzantine church altogether. Too often, people walk away from the church never to return, and they don't really know why. The Byzantine church has a beautiful tradition behind it, one that I feel, as a teen, strengthens me. I've been to a lot of byzanTEEN events, and am constantly amazed that we as such a small group, have such zeal within us. I hope I have not offended you, and if I have I'm sorry, I just don't like it when people complain of our beautiful faith. Come to the ByzanTEEN youth rally in June, you'll be amazed by all the teens there, hope to see you there.

Christopher

Can you tell me why leaving the Byzantine church would be irresponsible? I don't think thats quite the right word.

Just because I said that my faith is strict, it doesn't mean I'm talking it down. I love being a Catholic. Hey, I love being a Byzantine Catholic.

That would be cool to go to the youth ralley. Lots of my youth group is going, but I'm going to Paris instead. Maybe next year. Isn't it an annual thing?

Hey Elizabeth,

I'm not a ByzanTEEN, but I'm only a few years older than you (I'm 22). I was formerly a Roman Teen, and quite frankly, was thankful not to be Byzantine. My best friend who lived next door was Byzantine, and I went with him to the Divine Liturgy a couple of times. I thought it was weird, although somewhat mystical. My friend's sisters used to say how badly they wished they were Roman like me, because the Roman mass is so much more fun!

In college I started attending Byzantine parishes every once in a while. I didn't know why, but I kept being drawn back. One time a Latin friend of mine came with me to the Byzantine parish, and I was certain that he wouldn't like the weird Byzantine liturgy. At the end of the Liturgy, I was prepared to say "thank God we are Latin," when he turned to me and said "this is the most beautiful liturgy I have seen in my life!" This friend of mine started to faithfully attend the Divine Liturgy, and hailed it as being a whole new level of spirituality for him!

To make a long story short, I am now Byzantine myself. Although it was strange and countercultural, I found myself MISSING the Divine Liturgy whenever I went back to my Roman parish. Sure, the Roman liturgy is more fun and modern. But there is something to the Byzantine Liturgy that I can't put my finger on. I now eagerly look forward to the Divine Liturgy, and have grown to love the Byzantine tradition in a way that I could never have imagined. My fiance, who is a senior in college, is becoming Byzantine also. She has come to prefer it to the Roman Tradition that she grew up with.

In short, the Byzantine Church is very countercultural. I can understand why teenagers, who want to blend in, have a difficult time fully appreciating it. I thought it was weird. But now it means so much to me. It is funny how things look different with age.

Take care,
Anthony

Seems we both have the same opinions. Me being a teenager that does NOT want to blend in, I've got no problem with being a different rite than my other Catholic friends. And my Baptist friends think its pretty cool.

I find the Latin and Byzantine liturgies different...none is worse or better than the other, but I kinda prefer the Byzantine mass - or liturgy - anyways. Its all a matter of what you like and which way you can be closer to God.

Christ is Risen!
Hi Elizabeth,
I think there are probably alot of reasons for the shortage of Byzan-Teens, including the one you talked about. At my parish, St. John Chrysostym's in Seattle, WA, there are around 15-20 teenagers, and while I can't speak for all of them, I think most of us here don't have any problem with being Byzantine. We have an active Youth Group, etc.
I think it's true that most Roman Catholic teens would find Eastern rite weird and too counterculture at first. It does take getting used to if you've never experienced it before. I find it great to be a part of such an ancient and beautiful form of Catholicism. I've been Byzantine all my life and I definitely would never leave.
Katie

Elizabeth,
The reason I said it is irresponsible for adults to leave the church, is partially due to their reasoning behind it. Sometimes they leave over something trivial, like an argument with their priest. I just think it is unfortunate that some of our people so easily give up their faith (meaning Byzantine) for another, regardless of the cause. It is also irresponsible because people continually leaving a church can hurt it. I'm not saying the Byzantine church is collapsing, not by far, its just that I hate to see anyone leave one of our parishes for another rite. My pastor once said that we were all put in the place we are by God, especially as Byzantine Catholics. He said that God has a job for us where we are, and I agree, but I just can't believe that our job, as byzantines, is to leave mother church. We, as the future of this church, have to carry on the faith and live it to the fullest.

I don't know if the youth rally is going to be an annual think, but I sure hope so. Sorry you won't be joining us, but maybe you'll be able to come to the pilgrimage over Labor Day Weekend at Mt. St. Macrina.
Keep the faith going!

Christopher

Good reasoning, you guys. But I don't see any problem with a Byzantine leaving the rite to be a Roman. It all just depends on which way you pray better, and which way brings you closer to God. But somebody leaving just because of a petty problem that could be worked out is ridiculous.

I haven't heard anything about the pilgramige to that place you mentioned. But my church- St. Georges in Olympia, WA is having a pilgramage something like August 16th. If you're going, look for me, k? Same with you, Katie. You're from Seattle so I'll bet you'll be going.

Elizabeth,
Christos Voskrese!
I guess we each have our opinions on when people leave the church, but let's just leave it at that. By the way, Mt. St. Macrina, is in Uniontown,Pennslyvania, same place as the rally. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio, so its close for me, but not for you. Good luck on your Pilgrimage in August and enjoy Paris.

Christopher

Thank you very much.

Elizabeth,

Your Byzantine faith - which you share with millions of Russian Orthodox as well your brother and sister Catholics - is like a priceless family heirloom, only better because unlike jewelry or furniture it is something alive that will transform you, preparing you for union with God (what we call theosis or deification) if you let it.

The Byzantine services are very long and can be tough (for Good Friday we stood and sang THREE HOURS! - some shortening is nice sometimes). But our rite represents what the Catholic faith - Eastern and Western - is really all about better than the 'fun', 'modern', easy new Roman Mass in many places. (The older version of the Roman Mass was/is a lot more like our services.) The focus is on God, not us. Give it a chance. When you get into it you'll find it can be fun! (Plus, if you come from a Slavic church, learning the Slavonic-language prayers means you learn a great deal of Russian in the process... kind of cool in a spy-novel way, da?)

XPNCTOC BOCKPECE! Christ is risen!

Please visit my website.

http://OldWorldRus.com

So the Roman Mass is not focused around God? Where did you get that idea?

Elizabeth,

I am consistently impressed by your posts!You have a tenacious way of getting to the heart of the issue. Keep up the good work!

Christ is Risen!

Peace,

Gordo, sfo

PS: How's your Grandma?

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-30-2000).]

Elizabeth,

The Byzantine Liturgy and the older Roman Mass are more focused on God than the revised Roman one often is in practice (note I didn't say in itself). This is from my own experience going to churches.

http://oldworldrus.com

All churches over here are focused around God. I don't get why any church wouldn't be fully focused around God.

Thank you for the compliment, Gordo. I appreciate that.

My Grandma is doing excellent.

Hello,
I am a Latin-Rite teen but I hope I will be welcomed in this forum as a fellow Catholic. I have a few questions as well as a few comments but I will get to them later. questions. Where is the Tabernacle in your church. In the Latin-Rite we have Adoration and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, do you have the same? I would like to attend a Divine Liturgy soon, is there any type of text of your Liturgy online that I can read before I go so I know what I am doing when I go?

Tom

Dear Tom,

You are most welcome on this forum, my dear brother in the Lord. I am a Byzantine Greek Catholic teen of the Russian rite, and I would be glad to help you out.

The tabernacle, which is called an 'ark' in the Eastern Catholic Churches, is placed on the altar. It is usually in the shape of a Byzantine Church, with domes and everything. We do not typically have Benediction and Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, but we do, of course, believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. While Benediction/Adoration is a venerable practice, it is one that is not traditionally practiced by Eastern Catholics.
For a text of the Divine Liturgy, check out http://www.byzantines.net .
Feel free to contact me privately at wjtherman@webtv.net if you have any further questions.

God be with you, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages!

In Christ,
Feodosij, rab' Bozhij
(Theodosius, servant of God)

Anyone who wishes to post on byzcath.org is most welcome here. Have no hesitation, Tom, about posting here-- there is no question about your being here.

Just one point: in the East, the Holy Eucharist is more seen as 'food for the journey' than as an object for worship/adoration. While Eastern Christians absolutely believe that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist, we don't focus on veneration as the main focus of the Eucharist.

Elizabeth, as someone who is taking care of an elderly Mom who is living with paralysis as a result of a stroke, I understand your concern and efforts for your Grandma. I pray that God blesses your good efforts and restores her to strength.

Blessings!!

Hi Tom,
I am a Byzantine-Ruthenian teen, and I have heard (though I'm not sure) that one of the reasons the Western Church started Adoration and Benediction was to combat the Protestant denial of the real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and since the True Presence has never been challenged in the Eastern churches we focus less on revering it in the tabernacle and more on actually recieving it.
In my Eastern Christian Formation class we just finished a year studying the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostym - it is amazing how rich in tradition and history it is. I think you will find it very interesting, even if for the first time it seems very different from what you're used to.
Katie

Thanks! I'll pray for your mom, too.

Hello all,

I just want to thank you all for the warm welcome I received and the prompt answers to my questions. I just want to make say a few things. First, I hope I didnt give the impression by my question that Romans do not focus on receiving the Eucharist, because we do, unless I have misunderstood what you were trying to say. Actually I think ever since Vatican II Eucharistic Adoration has lowered a little. I know in my parish we only have it 2 or 3 times a year. Some parishes have it, I think, once a month and some have it perpetually.They are usually the more traditional parishes.(Not that my parish is one of those progressive, modern,(bordering on being illicit), parishes. Secondly, in response to what Elizabeth11 said at the beginning of this particular topic. If there are teens leaving the Byzantine-Rite for the Latin-Rite. There are definitely teens who would like to see what the Eastern church is all about. Myself included. If they only knew about it! I think more Roman teens need to be taught that there is an Eastern part to the Church. I only learned that there were Eastern-Rites to the church a few years ago. I think there are a lot of teens that might not like some of the modern things going on in the Roman-Rite Church and would like to experience an Eastern way of worship.
As for Romans starting Eucharistic Adoration as a rebuttle to Protestants, I am not sure, But I will certainly ask one of the priests at my parish for ya.

God Bless,
Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom (edited 05-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Tom (edited 05-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Tom (edited 05-15-2000).]

>>>I am a Byzantine-Ruthenian teen, and I have heard (though I'm not sure) that one of the reasons the Western
Church started Adoration and Benediction was to combat the Protestant denial of the real Presence of Christ in the
Eucharist, and since the True Presence has never been challenged in the Eastern churches we focus less on revering it
in the tabernacle and more on actually recieving it. <<<

Actually, Eucharistic Adoration is considerably older than the Reformation. It arose in the later Middle Ages, about the time when priests in the Latin Church began to say Mass silently, and took over all the responses that used to belong to the people. The Mass was in Latin anyhow, so the people wouldn't have understood what he was saying. Just as in the Divine Liturgy, there is a point in the Latin Mass where the priest holds up the consecrated host before breaking it. As this was one of the few visiual cues that the people had regarding what was going on, it became the focal point of the Mass for them. It was a short step from there to leaving the consecrated Host out in a monstrance for all to see. Prayers were written around the adoration of the Host, and a whole new devotion arose around it. This included the Feast of Corpus Christi, and the processional liturgy devised for it (Thomas Aquinas wrote some of the hymns). Over time, this Eucharistic Adoration reached excessive levels. It was very rare for people to receive communion more than three or four times a year, and Adoration gradually began to take center stage from the Eucharist itself.

Attempts to foster more frequent communion in the Latin Church were in part a response to this excessive devotion to the Sacrament. The reaction of the Roman Church since Vatican II, often placing the Tabernacle in a side chapel, however, seems to be just as excessive in the opposite direction.

For us as Byzantine Christians, showing our veneration for the Blessed Sacrament comes as an integral part of our liturgical worship. We know it is there, upon the Holy Table, in the Tabernacle, the Holy of Holies, and thus we bow before it, making the sign of the cross. Within the Divine Liturgy, adoration of the Sacrament comes from receiving it in a fully prepared manner; i.e., have we reconciled ourselves with the Church, and with each other; have we given thanks for the gift we are about to receive, are we open to the Sacrament transforming us so that we become more like that who is within the sacrament itself?

In the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, we also show our veneration for the Sacrament when it is removed from the Tabernacle and moved to the table of preparation, and later durng the Great Entrance. In contrast to the Divine Liturgy, here we really do kneel, even prostrate, in the presence of the Gifts, because we are approach God in a penitential attitude for Lent, and because the Gifts have already been transformed: God is truly present among us on the diskos.

Dear Elias:
I think that eveything would be alot better for everyone if you would stop focusing on how much 'worse' the Roman Catholic ways are than the Byzantine Catholic ways. Its like you are ridiculing them or something and thats not very Christian. Please think about that for a while.
Thank You
Elizabeth

Fr. Elias,

I noticed that you are from Pennsylvania. Are you by any chance Fr. Elias of St. John the Baptist?

Yours in the Theotokos,

Darrenn

Elizabeth,

I think you are a welcome addition to this list. I think you understand 'Byzantine Faith' is a myth. We have a Byzantine expression of the Catholic faith!

It is understandable that young people would like to join with other young people and talk about important matters in their life, spirituality and faith. This is hard in many of our parishes whose membership is declining and elderly.

I also think you have seen how those who jump around from various liturgical traditions fall into the habit of offering critics of different customs in a way that has no pastoral benefit. That is why it is best to persevere in one's own tradition, to avoid the fault of being focused on various human customs rather than the universal truths of the Catholic faith.

Keep your eye on the big picture and you will be all right! Enjoy Paris. A few blocks from the beautiful Catholic Cathedral of Notre Dame is the beautiful little Eastern Catholic chapel of St. Julian.

Kurt

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: Kurt ]

I am a Byzantine-Ruthenian teen, and I have heard (though I'm not sure) that one of the reasons the Western Church started Adoration and Benediction was to combat the Protestant denial of the real Presence of Christ in the
Eucharist, and since the True Presence has never been challenged in the Eastern churches we focus less on revering it in the tabernacle and more on actually receiving it.

This is all true except the reaction was to something centuries before there were Protestants &#8212; back then some in the West like Berengarius were questioning the Real Presence. This never happened in the East, so there are no reactive practices here, even though we too believe He is literally there.

http://oldworldrus.com

I also think you have seen how those who jump around from various liturgical traditions fall into the habit of offering critic[ism]s of different customs in a way that has no pastoral benefit.

The phrase "jump around from various liturgical traditions' turns this otherwise OK post into a nasty remark. It implies anyone who is well acquainted with various Churches and rites is a dilletante. For the record, one can be grounded in a Church and rite, either the one you were received into or another one, and based on that rite as well as knowledge of others, constructively criticize a rite in practice.

You are right that there is Catholicity and there are various expressions of it (rites), but "Byzantine faith' isn't offensive because it points out that there are are differences &#8212; one faith, several "religions' might be one way of describing the particularity of Churches in the Catholic faith. (Plus lots of people still think "one Catholic faith' means "one Roman faith'.)

http://oldworldrus.com

Okay, I'll amend it to say it may have benefit when offered in the academy, but rarely, if ever, in the parish or pastoral setting.

Lastly, heavenis full of people who arrived there thinking the whole world worshipped as they did.

K. (who once thought every Catholic was Rutheniian)

Dear Elizabeth,

I am a Latin Catholic man well beyond my teen years. I am writing to thank you for your spirited support of the Liturgy of my Church. I am sorry that you found it necessary to have to
do that.

I think that you are right on target when you point out that all of the Liturgies of God's Churches are beautiful and do what they are meant to do. They are different, but none is greater or lesser. You have the gift of discernment to be able to see beyond the personal preferences of people to see what is true and important. I am glad that you are so gifted!

I hope that you will be the leader in the Byzantine Church that you seem capable of being. I pray that the youth of the Byzantine Church come to realize what a treasure they have and what a treasure they are to that Church. You are a gift to all of God's Churches!

Many Years!

Steve

JOY!

Dear Adults Posters,

I find it distressing that even when dealing with our young, some of us feel it necessary to attack the Liturgical practices of other Churches as lesser or worse. Surely we can set a better example of Christian love for one another's ways.

If the situation that Elizabeth described exists and there is a movement of young people from the Byzantine Church, it is important the treasure that they have be demonstrated. I am sure that you agree with me that Byzantine Churches and Liturgies and life have much within them to draw people of all ages. Should this not be the focus of the effort to draw them?

Is the issue that the Latin Church, its Liturgy, and life are perceived to be fun, and easy, etc, Rather than expressing distain for them or suggesting that they are lesser or worse, would it not be better to ask the Latin posters here to explain that this is not what our Chruch, our liturgy or life are about. Should they not hear about what we believe and practice and what it means?

I hope that we will all look to nurturing our young in the practice of Christian love that Elizabeth urges us to show. Help them to learn their heritage and the beauty of their Churches and their Liturgies. Help them too by example to know about the other Churches in our communion and to hold them in that love also!

Let us not pass on to our future the prejudices of the past.

Please!


I am sorry to have to say this in this place visited by young people. I simply did not know in what other Forum to say it.

Steve

Please do not let the written expression impede the meaning or the love!

JOY!

May the joy of Christ be with you all.
I would like to suggest the fact that the East and West though the same, have a different deposit of faith. The East, in the levened Eucharist, focuses on the Ressurected Lord. While the West, with the unlevened Eucharist, focuses of the Cruicified Savior. They are both Jesus, transubstantiated by the same Holy Spirit, giving each of us the Body and Blood of Christ.
The precepts of the Liturgy are the same, they just are celebrated differently. The East held the tradidtions of Hagi Sophai(Constantinople), while the West took the traditions of Jersulem.
We are one of 28 Rites, Catholic, and Universal.
There are over 28,000, Prostentant denominations in the world. We have lasted almost 2001 years this way. The protestant's spread out like that in just over 400 years.
What I am trying to get at is sometimes we fight like brothers and sisters (he,he), but we are all one in the same Catholic Church and more important, ONE IN THE SAME LORD, JESUS CHRIST!

Go with God!
Rose

I want to say hi to Ann, it is her 19th birthday! :rolleyes: :p

Elizabeth,
I think that most people here have a sincere respect for the religious traditions of Western Christendom. You just have to remember that many people in the Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox Churches who were Roman Catholics probably had some serious problems with the way the mass was being celebrated, and all the usual post-Vatican II problems.

In Christ,
Michael

Pax vobiscum!

I'm a Latin rite Catholic, of the Plilippines (the only Christian country of Asia, and about 80% are catholics of the latin rite). I visited many forums and e-groups that help in the church to breath using both lungs (eastern and western churches). Hope that I'll be accepted here as one of the youth that would like to see the church to be very fruitful of God's gifts. and be a seeker of truth through the help of fellow believers.

God bless!!! thank you very much...