Hi,

I am a latin catholic very involved in Lifeteen. I was wondering if maybe the Byzantine Catholic teens would be interested in joining the Lifeteen program but having a Byzantine "identity" (Basically being under Lifeteen but making sure they know you are Byzantine). I think it would be a GREAT way to spread around Eastern Christianity to a lot of latin catholics and it would give more exposure to the Byzantine church in a whole. If you think about it Lifeteen is HUGE! Just a suggestion, tell me what you guys think!

Dear Seeker,

I do not know of this group. Can you tell me more about it?

Elias

Seeker,

Please take no offense at what I am about to say but I think Lifeteen and indeed the whole idea of seperate liturgies for kids, for teens, for college students, for charismatics, for whoever, etc. are wrong in and of themselves and on top of that is completely against the Eastern idea that Liturgy is the gathering of the Church as one body. Ideally in a parish there should be one Liturgy on any given day. Because of work schedules or small buildings some parishes have two but this is starting to change.

The Lifeteen practice of gathering around the altar is completely against Byzantine liturgical practice and to do so would violate our Liturgical law which prohibits any layperson from entering the altar except male altar servers blest to do so. I think it is laudable that you want to expose your group to the Eastern Churhces and involve our youth but I think you will find that Lifeteen and Eastern practice do not mesh. I do think there could and should be coordination and cooperation in social events and service projects but I think we need to maintain our own youth groups because of the above mentioned concerns.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Fr. Elias,

The website for Lifeteen is:
http://www.lifeteen.com/

In Christ,
Lance

Dear Lance,

Thanks for the info, and the link!

Elias

Seeker,
As Lance said, Lifeteen just doesn't fit into the Byzantine Catholic tradition. It seems like a great program for the Roman Catholic Church, but it would only hurt the Byzantine Church. The BCC is in a critical point of her history here in America in that we are finally truly coming back from decades of harsh latinization, that we cannot allow ourselves to take on anything that is not ours. In fact when it was rumored that such a program was being formulated for the Byzantine Church, a fire was lit under a couple of ByzanTEENS and they made sure that was not going to happen (don't worry, it was just a rumor). Its not a bad program, its just not right for us.

The best way to get latin teens to know about the East is to take them to a byzantine (or other eastern) service, show them what the "other lung" of the Universal Church is all about. I commend your idea for trying to get the ByzanTEENS identity more recognized, but I do not think that Lifeteen is the way to go. Once the East is understood and appreciated by the West, then perhaps Byzantines can stop being "those weird catholics" (yes, that is what RC friends refer to my religion as). Someday the church will successfully breathe with boht her lungs, once different traditions can be respected and in the case of the Byzantine Church, fully restored.

S'Nami Boh(God is With Us),
Christopher

I agree with Chris 100%

I was a parishioner of St. Tim's in Mesa (the birthplace of Life Teen way back in 1985) for about 3.5 years, and active in Life Teen for 3 of those years. It was through Life Teen that I was introduced to the Catholic Church. I learned a lot. It was on my own research that I discovered the Eastern Catholic Churches. I was received into the Byzantine Catholic Church (Ruthenian Metropolia) on the night of December 26, 2000.

Lemme add a few things to what Chris said:

1)Having experience how Life Teen works firsthand at the place where it is born, and to a certain extent, centered (St. Tim's is a Life Teen hub parish)I have come to realize that Life Teen was never meant to work by itself. It serves essentially as a "grabber" to get (non-Catholic and Catholic teens) interested in the Church and making a decision to live for him. Thus, it is intertwined with the Confirmation and the RCIT programs (RCIT is basically RCIA-Rite of Christian initiation for adults, except with teens). These programs take teens the next step. After which many of these teens after Confirmation (or converstion) and after high school graduation, go on to become CORE members (at least that's how it worked out at St. Tim's) It is not meant to stand alone. This is perhaps the key reason why some of the liturgical craziness has been associated with the program. It can afford to be shallow, it's a holding tank.

2) But since our theology of the Holy Mysteries is fundamentally different (we see Baptism, Chrismation, and Eucharist, in that order, as forming an indissoluable, mystical, Scriptural bond which can not be broken). Since we baptize confirm, and communicate (to use Latin terminology) in one fell swoop we don't need a program, bridge, holding tank, introducer to go between a person and his/her "sacramental graduation day" (which is how Confirmation is often viewed as in the West).

No "Church graduation", no program to get teens "ready" for it, no program to gently lead the teens into that program. Thus, no Life Teen. Although your zeal for East/West Catholic unity (a personal cause of my own) is admirable, I would suggest that you introduce yourself to the "ethos" or personality ("texture" may even be a better word) of Byzantine Christianity by visiting Divine Liturgies often, talking with Byzantine Catholic priests. Heck, you can even by our now completed 3-part catechism (called "Light for Life"). East and West are two entirely different animals. Lemme give you a concrete example:

3) Since we baptize, chrismate, and communicate our babies, we see spiritual growth as uncovering the gifts (indeed, the presence of God Himself) already present within us so that we may turn that flame into a raging fire, but more important than any feeling of ecstasy, joy, speaking in tongues, resting in the Spirit...is Compunction: that awareness (a really central theme in Eastern Christian spirituality) of how much God loves us (causing us to love Him more and more), how little we care for His love (which causes true repentance, which is distinct from self-pity and despair), and also how little we share that love with others (which moves us to perform the spiritual and corporal works of mercy).

When we think of an authentic move of the Holy Spirit, the context for us Eastern Christians is always the human person in his/her totality. Hence, speaking (or praying) in tongues, in which it is said that the heart bypasses the head (which immediately raises a red flag for us since it goes against nepsis: inner attention and vigilance over the mind at all times) does not carry with it the sort of bona fides that it does in other circles. The real test for us is if we are allowing the mind to descend into the heart where the Holy Spirit lives, and that is where the true encounter takes place: between the soul and God who is ever present within (precisely because it is assumed that the Eastern Christian has been baptized, Chrismated, and communicated at infancy and has been letting that life of the Holy Spirit grow inside him for all of his natural life).

There's a whole lot more I can say about this. If you want to discuss this further on this forum (or via email), lemme know.

Yours in the Theotokos,

Darrenn

[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: Darrenn Jackson ]

Hey,

I understand the situation. I absoultely love the Byzantine Divine Liturgy (I just can't stop singing those hymns!). You got my vote to tell every latin catholic I know about the divine liturgy (adults and kids). I already spread it to just about everyone I know at our parish. Everyone WANTS to attend a Divine Liturgy and I am trying to get groups of people going every Sunday that I go. The thing is, I am always busy at my parish, I attend like 3 masses (Sponsor for R.C.I.A dismall mass, Lector for other, and Lifeteen for the other) every Sunday and it's hard to fit the byzantine liturgy in. I have been telling all our seminarians here and hopefully they can spread it around at their parishes as well. Please keep praying for me, the discernment process isn't the easiest thing to go through.

I am a Latin Catholic teen and I would go so far as to say that the Lifteen program is not good for the Roman Catholic Church either. It is one of those crazy things born out of the "Spirit" of Vatican II (makes you wonder if people ever read the Vatican II documents, eh?).

Maybe it attracts some teens, but it doesn't keep with Catholic tradition (East or West). Besides, nothing can beat a traditional Roman rite Mass.

In Jesu et Maria,
Justin

Dear Justin,

How about a traditional Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy of our Father among the Saints, John Chrysostomos, Archbishop of the City of Constantine?

Alex

Gregorian,

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the plague of LifeTeen. I'm not sure about anything beating a traditional Roman Mass because I've never been to one.

Alex,

Or even better, have one on the feast day of St. Photios the Great!!

Alex,

Well I have never been to a Divine Liturgy (there are no Eastern Catholic churches in my state), but.....maybe you are right.

In Jesu et Maria,
Justin

Alex,

I'd read that there is a mission someplace in Tennesse. I'll see if I can find out more and post it.

Dan Lauffer

...and remember to invite Dr. Warren Carroll

[ 06-25-2002: Message edited by: NDHoosier ]

My brother goes to a Life Teen Mass every Sunday and its packed! I think its the greatest thing because you see so many people singing and praying.

Now it's not my cup of tea because I am Eastern but whatever brings people closer to the Lord, I think it's great. My brother gets a lot out of it and so do all of his friends.

I think it beats a Latin Tridentine Mass because I went to one and was lost because it was in Latin and it didn't have any action going on like we do in the East or in the regular RC Mass of today. Plus the Life Teen Mass is in English so it appeals to people. Latin is a dead language.

I think more power to Life Teen and to vernacular Masses and Liturgies!

-ukrainiancatholic

ukrainiancatholic,

"I think more power to Life Teen and to vernacular Masses and Liturgies!"

With all due respect, my brother in Christ, I think you're nuts, although I have no problem with liturgies in the vernacular (I am Byzantine, after all). But, as one who experienced three years of Life Teen at the parish where it was born, I must tell you that there is more to Life Teen than the image it trys so very hard to market. Life Teen attracts a lot of teens to the program, not necessarily the Church. It is in essence a Church within a Church, an offspring of the Charismatic movement and the misreading and selective implementation of Vatican II. Life Teen is raising Catholic teens to have a five second spiritual attention span. It too often draws teens into subjective, ephemereal, emotional experiences and calls that allowing "the Holy Spirit to work in your life". I could go on, but I already have before in this thread.

Yours in the Theotokos,

Darrenn

I disagree about the 5 second attention span, but maybe thats from your church. The one my brother goes to has a social and prayer nite on Monday, Thursday there is Fellowship for 2 or 3 hours followed by Bible Study then Mass os Sunday plus they go to WYDays and numerous retreats. I dont thats a 5 minute attention span, plus theeir turnout is great. They are Catholic and are leading people to Christ.

I am nuts? I have heard that before hehehe its ok that we disagree, as long as you know I am right

ukrainiancatholic,

The remark about the 5 minute attention span is drawn not only from my personal experience and observation, but also from the moaning of others (particulary RC's who have ended up in the BCC) and from other RC's as well, in and out of the Phoenix metro area.

As I have said at the begininng of this post, the main purpose of Life Teen is to attract teens to the Church (or rather to the program) and hold their attention long enough for them to be passed on to the RCIT or Confirmation programs. Ultimately, the historical anamoly of delayed confirmation and first communion (which is bad Eastern/Western theology)is necessary for the whole Life Teen edifice, and vice-versa...thus ultimately making it nearly impossible for the RC bishops when they actually get around to restoring the ancient order of Baptism, Confirmation (chrismation), and Holy Eucharist.

This also tends to make the program over-focused on the high school years? If Confirmation is a sacramental graduation which is approached after much studying and education, what message does that send to the teens as far as sacramental growth in the Spirit without an endless series of "maturation" sacraments? By putting an undue emphasis on a teen's preparation, knowledge and effort on a one-time event, mystical, experiential knowledge of self and God takes a backseat to data. This also would explain why not a whole lot of teens remain active in the Church after going through the Life Teen program, primarily because the RCC doesn't really have a college counterpart to Life Teen (on the national scale). St. Tim's faced just that problem a few years ago when it started it's College Life group, which on an average night has about 1/20 the number of participates as an average Life Night at St. Tim's.

I would add further that the appearance of Life Teen pulling in the teens is due more to the behemoth presence (even if at times nominal presence) in this country (especially compared to us). About 400 high school teens come to an average Life Night at St. Tim's but then again, St. Tim's has about 10,000 parishoners (an EXTREMELY conservative estimate). Yet when I started the youth group at St. Thomas the Apostle in Gilbert (BC), including me, there were 3 high school age teens. St. Thomas has about 80 parishoners. Even when one gives St. Tim's the benefit of the doubt and grossly underestimates the number of parishoners (I think it's the largest parish in the Diocese of Phoenix, or close to it), the benefits of having a smaller, more close-knit community where EVERYBODY pitches in and you know all the teens (and their parents) by name apparently are much more effective at "bringing the teens closer to Christ" (Life Teen's motto) than Life Teen, Inc.

In the final analysis, the McChurch (a much better term, I think, than AmChurch) approach creates the super organizations to deal with the problems it creates in the first place. And yet, teens still fall through the cracks (the result of parents not really supporting their teens to go to Life Nights but then, come their junior year, all of a sudden want their kid confirmed) because it's so easy to get lost in a sea of people. The RCC has to allow some (okay, a lot) of craziness in order to pull their teens into the Church because of the RCC's apparent inability to inculturate Western Apostolic Christianity into the melting pot of secular American youth culture with any long lasting, positive results. So instead, it sends them off to mega-parishes where the appropiate program is supposed to fill their spiritual, educational, social, and emotional needs.

The result is not the much talked about "community", but Curialization American style. I'll take the average Byzantine Catholic parish any day.

calling you "nuts" may have been a little too severe, how about "quite possibly incorrect". :p

Yours in the Theotokos,

Darrenn

CIX!

With all due respect, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

First, if you don't understand Latin, make an effort to get a translation to be able to follow the Mass. Otherwise, if you had no idea what was going on and were lost, you have none to blame but yourself.

Secondly, Latin is NOT a dead language. Only those who don't know it or have no idea of its significance in western civilisation say so. A dead language is one that has ceased to develop and change and has no descendants - Latin is not one of these. Latin is merely an older form of many european languages.

Just for the record, I'm Russian Catholic and fluent in Latin and Greek.

In Domino,

Edward

Dear Edward,

You forgot to add "Old Rite of the Syriac tradition."

I raise two fingers for you . . .

Alex

Edward,

Acting disrespectful is not annulled with the use of "With all due respect" before acting disrespectful.



I did as you suggested and the Latin High Mass I attended, with a good translation, turned out to be a good reading session, not a worship service, because I was too busy reading along and trying to follow what was happening for it to be prayer for me.




Latin is most certainly a dead language, as in it is unchangeing. There are no new words or usages, there is no slang, as there are in the languages in use today.

Latin is also most certainly not an older form of any european languages, it may be a basis for those languages but it is not an older form.

For it to be an older form then those who speak the languages today would understand much of what is said. For example, someone that is speaking Olde English can be understood, to some extent, by someone who speaks English.

You define a dead language as, "one that has ceased to develop and change and has no descendants".

The first two, are correct, I do not know where you get the third criteria.

The offical definition, which I get from The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Linguistics is;

dead language
One that is no longer the native language of any community. Such languages may remain in use, like Latin or Sanskrit, as second or learned (e.g. as liturgical) languages.


David

[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Latin is also most certainly not an older form of any european languages, it may be a basis for those languages but it is not an older form....For example, someone that is speaking Olde English can be understood, to some extent, by someone who speaks English.

I have to disagree with you here. Have you ever tried to read Old English? Without any training in the German language, Old English is practically undecipherable to a speaker of modern English. One could, of course, discern certain words and phrases, but the same could be said of an English speaker reading modern German. Old English is a far, far cry from the modern usage of the tongue.

As for Latin being an older form of various European languages, our friend Edward speaks somewhat of the truth. I have a meagre knowledge of Latin and used it quite often to figure out what's going on while watching the World Cup recently on Univision (an all Spanish television station). I also use that Latin to listen in on what my girlfriend's Quebecois relatives are saying about me when I'm visiting Montreal :p ! Latin is more than just a "base" for these two languages. Indeed, a native Spanish or French speaker has a much easier time with Latin than a Germanic language family speaker such as myself.

In Christ,
mikey.

Dear Edward,

Please try to be nice to our friend, David.

The view on Latin you espouse is a matter for discussion.

Good for you that you can speak Latin and Greek, you could easily join the Vatican's diplomatic corps (perhaps you could help them out in the Russian geopolitical arena just about now).

David is a committed Christian, before all else, who struggles greatly in his personal spiritual life to overcome the world and the devil.

Let's not add to his adversarial burden, shall we?

I love you both, I hope you know that!

Alex

Mikey,

I agree with you, reading it can be a pain but I have had a little luck at deciphering the little bit I have tried to read.

But if you go back to my statement, I said that a speaker of modern english can figure out the meaning of what is spoken in Olde English.

David

I'll just pop in here to say that Latin is not really all that dead. There is a guy, a Carmelite priest in the Vatican, I think, who is the Pope's "Latinist". He does translations of encyclicals and other documents into Latin, and has updated the language to include words in use today.

For instance, I must be the only guy in the New York metropolitan area who does not own a telephonium cellulare.

He's responsible for that one and others.

CIX!

Caro Davide,



How is this any different from a Latin who walks into a Divine Liturgy all in Slavonic and complains that he either can't understand a word and can't figure out what's going on or when given a translation complains that he's too busy reading and trying to follow along to pray? The worship of any apostolic community takes time to get used to - the rubrics and the newness of it all will take some time to sink in. Otherwise, perhaps you might try not to use the missal and simply "immerse yourself" in the spirit of the worship happening around you - I say the same thing to newcomers to Orthodox worship.

I had the same experience when I left the Novus Ordo for the Old Rite, and when I left that to go East and become Greek-Catholic. I've done that adjustment more than once, so I can speak from experience to say: give it time.



It's a snapshot of a continuously developing language at one point in time. Mor Ephrem has pointed out that Latin continues to accquire new words. Latin is no deader than Classical Greek or Church Armenian or Slavonic.




Just as a sample, I'll name:

French
Italian
Spanish
Portuguese
Romanian

All of which are direct descendants of Latin. Latin changed and developed differently in each region of Europe, giving us the modern Romance Languages.



Actually, what do you mean by "Olde English"? Not Shakespeare, I hope. Chaucer is difficult enough to read for those without training in that form of the language, not to mention Anglo-Saxon. The Latinate languages have not undergone any process analogous to the Norman addition to Anglo-Saxon which produced Modern English.

Your point that "For it to be an older form then those who speak the languages today would understand much of what is said" does not hold water. Ignorant Greeks who don't bother, claim that they can't understand Classical Greek. Ignorant speakers of modern Romance languages claim the same for Latin. Slavs the same for Slavonic. This does not invalidate the fact that those languages remain an older form of the modern tongue, even if they are so old a form as to be very very very different from the modern forms. If any of these moderns made a small effort, they'd find the ancient tongues to be familiar relatives.



Indeed.



From my college professors, who are authorities in their subjects, some of whom are more highly revered in the academic community than Oxford University Press publications (indeed, they edit these things).



Not a satisfactory definition. Yes, I'm challenging ODL's definition. By that token, Tudor English, Classical and Koine Greek, Anglo-Saxon, Grabar, Syriac... are all dead languages and no scholar would call them that.

I stand by my clearer definition of "with no modern descendants". That is why languages with no daughters, such as Gothic, Hittite, Akkadian, Egyptian (and Coptic), can be called dead languages. Latin is merely an older form of living languages. Indeed, romance languages can be considered widely differing dialects of Modern Latin.

In Domino,

Edward

[ 07-04-2002: Message edited by: Edward Yong ]

Edward,
I am busy right now and I will give the rest of your post the attention it requires then I will respond to it.

But for now I will comment on the part I have quoted above.

If you have been reading what I have been posting to this sight you will know that it is not Latin that I have a problem with.

I think all Liturgies should be done mainly in the vernacular. That is the language of the people.

So here, the Liturgies should, IMHO, be done mainly in English with some Slavonic, or Latin as the case may be.


David

CIX!

Dear David,



I can agree quite happily with that! You should see the looks on the faces of the "Traditional Latin Mass" crowd I hang out with when I tell them that I think 1967's reforms were way out of line but that the switch to English was good. I like throwing them off balance - I wholeheartedly oppose women priests but support women deacons, for example. It's very amusing

Dear Edward,

Women deacons?

You probably just want the "Kiss of Peace" to be more interesting . . .

Alex

Yeah, Alex, but they better be good looking...I've seen pictures of deaconnesses in Protestant churches, and many of them look ghastly.

Let's get us some sexy deaconnesses, and I think all those men who stay home while the wife and kids go to church will suddenly feel like going with them, and even volunteering around the parish.

And I'll keep on going to church too...

Dear Catholicos,

It is always so absolutely wonderful to see you here!

Your posts never fail to excite !

Our parish has its own officially consecrated Anchoress.

A truly spiritually beautiful woman indeed!

Now that you're here, please refer to "East N West" for a thread I would like you to comment on.

Alex

Just thought I would add some comments about the LifeTeen Program...

I have had many conversations with parents of my sons friends from our RC Church. I am Byzantine, however, my husband is Roman. My choice is to raise my children Byzantine, but my husband would not participate. Since I have been raised strictly that a family needs to practice together in the church, I have been left to do what I can to learn the Roman ways and influence as many people as I can about the Byzantine Rite, including my my own children.

In my efforts to learn and accept the "LifeTeen" Program have not been good. I attended one and only one LifeTeen Mass. Actually, I left at the singing of the Creed. At first I was quite surprised and delighted that they were singing the Creed, but within the first few lines of it...realized that they had changed the words of the Creed. They actually took out the part of the "Incarnation!" I guess it didn't fit the lyrics or something...You know not one of my RC Catholic friends cared or felt that this should be an issue. They have told me that their kids, which are younger...6-9 get so much more out of the mass. I beg to differ. I guess my biggest complaint with the Lifeteen Mass is that it promotes a "Social Celebration" not an individual one. Mass/Liturgy is supposed to be a personal celebration of the Eucharist...I felt like I was in a Baptist Church (lots of hand clapping I am in the South) at that one LifeTeen Mass. And that is why I left. I could not concentrate nor enjoy the mass and was so mad/disppointed that this is what we are teaching the future of the church as acceptable.

Anyone in the forum can correct me if I am wrong, but it is issues like this that seem minor that keep the East and West Churches from talking to each other. I have tried to talk with my RC friends and understand more about the RC Ways, but I just don't agree with what I know to be true about what we should all believe as Catholics, Roman or Byzantine. I can only assume they think the same of me.

My friends are tired of hearing about the Byzantine Rite... so I limit my conversation about it. They respect my beliefs, and I respect theirs. I just see that there are major obstacles to overcome before the two churches, E and W, can reunite. If you really think about it, I question how united we are with Rome. The Pope is at such a different level spirtually and sees things from a different aspect. I could see the Byzantine uniting with the Greek Orthodox' before you would see a union between the East and West Church. I jsut don't see the East Church accepting some of the moves that happen in the RC Church

As for your idea about joining the two together...unless the RC made some HUGE changes in the manner in which they celebrate mass, it would not be to the advantage of the Byzantines as I agree with someone that posted earlier. It goes against what we believe. The Roman church keeps wanting to change things to be more modern. How many of you knew that Ascension Thursday has been moved to be Ascension Sunday to accomomodate the Roman Catholics that don't think it is important to celebrate that Holy Day on Thursday?

Getting back to the LifeTeen topic...I do like the activities that they plan for the teens and think it is great club/organization, but I don't believe they should have their own seperate mass as like someone else mentioned...you are creating a church with in a church. I think this is damaging and watering down of the Roman Rite Faith...as the Lifeteens drift futher from the traditional Roman Rite Practicers it is only going to hurt their faith and not strengthen it. What will happen then? I talk with many older generation RC that can not stand the lack of reverance that occurs in the RC Masses...Specifically the LifeTeen Mass.

I am praying for changes and wanting to be apart of the changes necessary for all of us to be reunited. If anyone has any ideas for me, please let me know what I can do to make a difference. Otherwise, please pray for me as I struggle to attend and raise my children in the Roman Catholic Faith.

With love,
Monica

Ive had alot of experience with Lifeteen during and after my conversion to Catholicism. One thing that drew me to the program was the familiarity of the style. I left a southern Baptist youth group to join the Catholic Church and The lifeteen model is pretty much the same as was used by the church that I had just left. It made for a much more smooth transition. I left Lifeteen recently though because I felt that while it aided in the ease of my conversion, cushioning the blow, it was teaching a faith that was based on emotion and as many of the teens described it "Fluff". The Church has much more to offer than fluff. We dont need to put a shiney wrapper on the faith.If we present Christ and his Church as they are, people will come. You can sell anyone a rotten tomato with marketing schemes, but you shouldnt need them to sell the perfect fruit.

I have been to many LifeTeen masses throughout the years. And while it was an aid to my conversion and remaining Catholic (I was about ready to jump ship), I have noticed recently that their Masses are beginning to resemble a TBN (Trinity Broadcast Network) entertainment and talk show.

Most recently, after the Eucharist, 2 teens were in front of the altar imitating characters from these Austin Powers' movies with the LifeTeen band in the background playing the theme music. They then proceeded to tell what social functions were available to the Teens. The Church shouldn't be imitating the world, we are to be redeeming it. And I agree with earlier posts, the RC church is too concerned with being modern. If they wish to imitate anyone let them imitate the Early Church Fathers' style of Christianity: Be Christ, Show Christ, Proclaim Christ.

+ Peace,
W

Amen!

Hey Justin! I know you from B'net right? (I'm OMAchristianSGD).

ChristTeen287

my, there are an awful lot of Georgians here.

Timothy,

To my knowledge, you and I are the only ones. Justin is from Tennessee apparently and his member name is Gregorian, not Georgian, just in case you misread it. What church do you attend in Atlanta?

ChristTeen287

ChristTeen,

Yes it is me, the same Justin from b'net. Yes I am from Tennessee, that is correct.

Nice to see you around.

In Iesu et Maria,
Justin

LifeTeen...*shudder*... there's talk of scrapping the old tracker organ (I'm an organist! That blasted thing is not only my source of income, but the way I can most perfectly offer my worship to God) in favor of a platform for the LifeTeen band and choir at my home parish... The priests are perfectly okay with this. These are, of course, the same priests who decided to empty the Holy Water pond (yes, pond) and put dead trees and rocks over nearly every square inch of open space during Lent. Liturgical abuses *twitch*... Not releshing the end of the academic year and having to go back there, let me tell you.

I am a latin rite Catholic and I would never join life teen. I believe that it is a very liberal organization, no one but the priest is to be at the altar during the Eucharistic Prayer. I believe that it is one of these groups that is out to make the lay people clergymen and the clergy laymen. If you ask I believe that the mass should have more latin I mean Vatican II didn't get rid of latin but said to use the mother tongue at some places.

I appreciate all of this discussion on the Life Teen program. I have been actively involved in youth ministry in either a volunteer or FT professional form (large parish with approximately 300-500 youth in various programs) over the years, and had an opportunity to participate in a LT program in the Twin Cities a number of years ago as a member of the "music ministry". (I also attended the training seminar down in Mesa, but spent Sunday at St. Thomas the Apostle (BC), which was a real blessing!)

Since I have been a member of a BC parish for a number of years, and a formal member of the BC for several months, I have developed a more sober view on the LT program (although I never bought in to some of the liturgical eccentricities...). Part of the issue is its "target market" approach to Catholic teens, effectively isolating a particular group within the parish. One of the books that helped me to rethink many of the Protestant youth ministry models that Catholic churches have adopted over the years, is the text called "Family Based Youth Ministry" by Mark Devries, a Presbyterian youth pastor from TN.

His whole premise is that target market approaches may generate numbers short term, but they fail by and large to demontrate any lasting retention of members in a church. A better approach (and one that moves out of a "program" mentality to a "relational" ministry) is that teens learn how to be mature Christian adults from - well, mature Christian adults and by integrating themselves into the very life of the parish, with their family at the center.

With that said, I think there are some things that still should be done to help accomodate the delivery of the Gospel message to their own understanding and maturity level. My understanding of the ByzanTeen program is a good example of this. Also, I think fun social events for teens to promote and develop relationships with their peers in a Christian context is a must. With that said, any program that drives too deep a wedge between parish, family and teens may help gain "market share", but ultimately fail to retain kids long term.

My two cents...

Gordo

I also have a background in "youth ministry" both as a volunteer for years and also as a paid staff member and director of various programs in the R.C.C. My impression of LifeTeen is that it is an effort on the part of some well- intentioned adults in cooperation with youth to provide an atmosphere which will appeal to today's youth. In a sense it is a competitive ministry because so many youth are turning to evangelical, charismatic, and other non-Catholic churches. Understandable, but...I think it is a bending over backwards to accomodate to contemporary times, music wise, worship wise, and other wise. I agree that social activities are a must. However, there needs to be an anchor to hang on to, a solid basis of truth, otherwise, it doesn't seem to last. One does ask whether the teeanagers in Lifeteen will go on to become responsible, christian parents and church members themselves-only time will tell.

We attended LifeTeen masses several times in the past few years when we were still attending the R.C.C. It was lively, entertaining, and fun, but I do think the beauty of Divine Liturgy far outweighs the contemporary approach. Why do we need to compromise anyway? I think we can win the youth with what is better and give em what lasts!! Bottom line is that Christianity is counter cultural, not something that just goes with the flow....or the times.




Nana Jo>also a mom and grandma

No offense, because I do not know much about LifeTeen. But I hear a lot of negative things about it on EWTN radio. They say it does not adhere to the GIRM (General Instructions for the Roman Missal) in many of its practices. Many Roman Rite priests and bishops do not accept it for this reason.

I would think that Byzantine parishes, trying so hard to return to their traditions, would be taking a step backward to incorporate such an approach.

Tammy,

I agree with you as I think I pointed out in my post. I am not in favor of LifeTeen in Byzantine parishes either. Just in case it wasn't clear. If you were referring to me when you said, "No Offense" >>I am not offended in the least.

Blessings,


Mary Jo

Mary Jo,

Actually, I was saying "No Offense" to the person who started this post and wants to start LifeTeen in the Byzantine churches.

Sorry for not being more clear.

Tammy

Hi Tammy,

Thanks. I sort of thought that is what you meant, but when I reread my post I thought maybe I wasn't being too clear so that is why I said that.

BTW, I do enjoy that gift of humor and wit you often bring in with some of your brief replies. We all need it and appreciate it.

Bless you, dear sister in Christ,


Mary Jo

Dear Mary Jo,

Thanks! Most of my replies have to be brief because I'm usually at work sneaking a peek at the Forum instead of doing my job! :rolleyes:

Tammy