Dear Diak,

I beg to differ . . .

Even such a traditional parish as Saints Volodymyr and Olha in Chicago once published an article (by Ewhen Iwankiw) that railed against the veneration of "such typical Russian saints as Dmitri of Rostov, Innocent Irkutsky etc. and they even say that Herman of Alaska was somehow 'Ukrainian!' Such 'saints' were mass-produced by the Russian empire etc. etc."

Perhaps we're over the shock of seeing three-bar Orthodox Crosses around the necks of our Easternizing priests.

But other issues will come to the fore and this will be one of them.

Alex

Don't you all have something better to talk about instead of which holy men you can pray to?
Besides, that sounds like V and O's political talk rather than traditional talk.

doesn't this all seem like kindof a frivolous waste of time.
Unless people have some smarter things to say I think i am gonna stop posting.

ilya

Dear Ilya,

This may not be a "smart" issue, but it certainly is an important ecclesial issue that practically does divide our Churches.

The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox ecumenical commission looked into this very matter - and they came to the conclusion, among other things, that one possible way of achieving unity is by removing the anathemas against each other's Saints.

So which Saints we acknowledge says a lot about what we believe about the Church, especially as those same Saints taught.

St Vasyl Velichkovsky also had a section on Orthodox saints in his writings where he addressed the issue of their recognition - he forbade Greek Catholics to demean them because they weren't acknowledged by Rome etc.

Our very Eastern parishes tend to honour Orthodox saints and this has resulted in conflicts etc.

If it wasn't an issue, we wouldn't be raising it.

But it is throughout our Church. Whether we like it or not.

To ignore such a potentially divisive issue is not "smart" either.

Alex

I'm sure that the issue of saints will be a topic that will have to be dealt with, but I'm preety sure that they wiil work things out.
Another problem actually and maybe more serious would be the actual number of bishops that exist in the Ukrainian churches not only in Ukraine but in the diaspora that is if and when the three churches join to create one Patriarchate. What's going to happen to the bishops in the cities like Kyiv, Lviv,etc. where you have a bishop of the UGCC, UAOC and Kyivan Patriarchate. And what about cities like Chicago? This may turn out to be very complicated. We down here in Brazil have only two Ukrainian bishops one being UGCC and the other from the UAOC, and I think that we would be able to accept maybe one or two more if that were the case but what about the rest? Has anybody ever thought of that? There's going to be a lot of bishops unemployed.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

Ah, but you are talking about this in the eventuality that our three main jurisdictions should ever unite under one Patriarchate etc.

That would truly be an issue then, as would the saints issue.

But there are ALREADY Ukrainian Catholic parishes where Orthodox saints are venerated (and rightly so, from my viewpoint) and I was wondering if our Synod considered this, even in advance of a possible future reunification.

St Paissy Velichkovsky and so many others - couldn't they be honoured officially by the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church NOW? Wouldn't that help with ecumenism NOW?

(Why do you think Ilya sounds so upset?)

Alex

ILYA, I would advise you to watch what you say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

V and Os is probaly the Only parish in the US that preserves Eastern TRADITION in its purest form, and Ukrainain Church tradition, not MUSCOVITE.

Come to our Parish then talk.

I'll pray for you

UKIPATR

PS Dont even mention the benches because we have many many seniors and also, the Greeks also have benches. I prefer not to have them, but some places need them.

Ok, you have a point. But who are these Ukrainian saints that instead of strengthening unity actually and really hinder such a cause besides St Josaphat?
It would be really a step foward as well if the Ukrainian orthodox cannonized metropolitan Andrey or Pariarch Iosef Slipey before Rome did? Now that would be a case.
Lauro

That was a lash of arrogance by the previous poster. This topic is certainly more interesting than some that have crept up on this forum. And who is being frivilous here with comments like that?

As with Sts. Seraphim of Sarov, Sergius of Radonezh and others, saints often define the spiritual identity and inspiration of even whole races of people and it is important. I for one enjoy talking about holy people who were "angels in the flesh" and believe many can gain efficacy from their example and prayers.

I am sorry,
I should have explained myself.
What I meant was that a more enlightened group like yourselves shouldn't worry about which saints you can and can't venerate because of jurisdictional red tape.
Holy people are holy people. Saints with wisdom to offer shouldn't be ignored because they were french, irish, chinese or russian. We should be able to look past these sorts of things.

sorry again.

OH, patriot types,

Remember that the muscovites got their tradition from kiev and in many cases preserved it with dignity and attention to detail. If our authorities are to reside in KIEV, than they should be following the KIEVAN tradition. Now lots of work would heve to go into this due to the fact that this tradition has been lost to our church. I hope that those responsible are able to see past the ethnic barrier and see that we really are of the same tradition.
what exacly is a pure ukrainian tradition? do you mean the ruthenica?

sorry yet again.

ilya

+ XPICTOC BOCKPECE +

Why is it that Ukrainian Greek Catholics and sometimes Ukrainian Orthodox respect Greek traditions but despise anything that comes from Russia? Ilya has a point that the area of modern-day Russia received Christianity and its liturgical traditions from the area of modern-day Ukraine. However, this should not really matter. We should not worship how we worship, but rather we should worship God. One must watch out lest "you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition." (Mark 7:9)

Alex, in my opinion Dmitri (Tuptalo) of Rostov, although his Psalter to the Mother of God was somewhat weird, was a holy man.

Ukipatr, what is Eastern tradition exactly? What is Ukrainian Church tradition? What is wrong with Moscow?

I don't mean to anger or offend.

Christ is risen!!!

Daniil

XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

Very interesting points, Daniil, and no offence taken here. Sts. Seraphim of Sarov, Dmitri Rostovski and Sergius of Radonezh are central at least to my own "spirituality". as are Boris and Hlib, St. Vladimir, etc. yet I am undeniably Orthodox in communion with Rome/Greek Catholic. The avatar is St. Leonid Federov, spiritual child of Sts. Andrey and Klementy Sheptytsky, Studite monk, confessor for the Kyivan Church and Russian (native of St. Petersburg).

Rus' implies all of Rus', whether "great" or "little". Direct or indirect, all of Rus' has its spiritual roots in Kyiv from the conversions of Askold and Olha to the baptism of St. Vladimir in the Dnipro to the martyrdom of Boris and Hlib, etc. etc. We borrow from Greeks and Bulgarians, why not from our own Kyivan tradition?

St. Vladimir was of the house of Rurik, a Viking, and not a native of Ivano-Frankivsk as some would like to believe. The milieu of the 10th century Rus' is proof of the universality of the Kyivan tradition, its immense evangelical potential, which even speaks to a pagan Viking when his envoys tell him "we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth" as his chronicler St. Nestor tells us.

Sorry for snapping ILYA.

What I meant was that even though Moscow recieved their tradition from Kyiv, over the years they have developed their own neuances (forgive my spelling)in liturgics. Its just the way things evolve. When I say Ukrainain Tradition, I'm saying Kyivan-Galician, Dont forget, MP in Kyiv does have its influence from the "Muscovite" tradition based on the fact that it really is the Russian Orthodocx Church in Ukraine. The general tradition is the same but each has its own things based on the change of times.

To answer the Greek-Russian-Ukrainian thing, Greek is where we all recieved our religion and general liturgical trditions, Kyiv came before Moscow. There should have been a Kyivan Patriarchate.

Another thing is that in Soviet times the ROC had its KGB agents, Ukrainians automatically see the ROC as the same Church it was in Soviet times (when its really not).

BUT, the Moscow Patriarchate knows that if it wasn't for its parishes in Ukraine, it would be 1/2 or 2/3 the size it is.

Hence, Ukraine wants its own Church, Russia wont allow it because they will lose millions of parishoners and thousands of parishes.

RUSSIA and UKRAINE are natural enemies unfortunately. I'm not saying i am one who despises the Russians totally, but i could understand why people are that way.

Despite all that, I have to admit that Moscow's liturgics are AWESOME. I wish we were as strong in liturgical tradition!

UKIPATR

Dear Ilya and Daniil,

This topic has gone beyond what I envisioned when I asked about the saints - yes it is a jurisdictional issue that has yet to be decided by our hierarchy.

Moscow has indeed taken from Kyiv and the Kyivan tradition.

But what is wrong with Moscow, you ask?

I would ask what is wrong with those of our Easternizing members who do what Moscow would never do - separate Church from nationality and national culture.

In addition, our Kyivan Tradition has its own authentic Orthodox tradition that should be good enough for us, no?

Only Ukrainians would want to make an issue of being "universal" and "de-ethnicized" when it comes to their church - even though we have enough church nationalists of our own too.

If you don't see a difference between Kyiv and Moscow or Zagorsk, I would suggest that you need to continue studying this whole issue more.

Russophilism is a definite phenomenon that affected both our Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

It threatened to swallow us, and others, up completely via forced assimilation and open persecution.

I, for one, have a problem even being associated with the Russian Church owing to its acts against the Ukrainian Catholic Church - for which it has never even admitted complicity much less apologise for.

If you want to be Russian Orthodox, be Russian Orthodox - there's nothing wrong with that.

Unless you are Ukrainian.

And I think I repeat the views of most Ukrainians in this respect.

I apologise for whatever harshness is seen here. Perhaps I should just excuse myself from speaking with my own Ukie colleagues on any of these topics.

But, as you are people with a future in our Church, it is better you hear this from me - than from others who would be much more harsh, believe me.

Alex

+ XPICTOC BOCKPECE +

Dear Alex,

I understand that there is a difference between Kyivan and Moscovite Church traditions. When I asked the question "What is wrong with Moscow?" I did see it meaning "Hey everybody, let's become Russians!" but rather "Hey everybody, Russian tradition does not deserve such a bad image because of the actions of some of its most foolish leaders."

I am never going to convert to another Church, unless it's because my whole Church (i.e. the UGCC) joins another Church (i.e. the Orthodox Church).

I understand that lots of Ukrainians are upset about the Lviv Pseudo-Sobor and all that came out of it. However, it was in the past and although much suffering came out of it, we should look at the positive. Many of our bishops have been glorified by God as saints because of their suffering and confession of Faith. Now, I am not saying to thank the ROC, but we should distinguish between the Judas-like betrayers of God and the Church (i.e. Agent Drozdov) and the God-inspired beatiful traditions that come from Russia. When our own God-inspired beatiful tradition has some gaps in it, is it wrong to fill it in with that of the north-east (as long as it does not conflict or predominate)?

Again, I do not mean to offend or anger, just to debate.

"It is the day of Resurrection, let us be radiant for the feast, and let us embrace one another. Let us say, Brethren, even to them that hate us, let us forgive all things on the Resurrection..."

Daniil

Dear Daniil,

Well, O.K. then . . .

You know I love you!

And how do you keep the girls away from your door long enough to study?

Care to share any secrets?

Alex