hmmmmmm,

someone should really write something interesting.

So whats the deal with........oh i don't know.

Does your local priest use pre-cut bread for communion?
If so you should ask him if he would be willing to switch to real prosphora. If he is not sure, offer to make it for him. Tell him that it causes you great concern that something as beautiful, Theologically correct and liturgically important and the proper preparation of the holy gifts is being overlooked. Hearing this from a young person, your priest should be so overjoyed that he will agree to your suggestion. If he is not, well then i feel sorry for your priest.
Hopefully your priest will still remember what to do with a real loaf of prosphora.
It causes me great grief when i walk into a sanctuary and see a tupperware container filled with these perfectly shaped white squares (or as my father calles them "crispy critters").
While you're at it, go to your local wine store and pick up some MAVRODAPHNE OF PATRAS. This is excellent wine for church use, much better than any white wine.

I know of OCA parishes that rotate "prosphora duty" among families. This is a beatiful custom and can easily be adopted into any young, vibrant and enthusiastic parish. Just make sure you get a good recipe. Lent is also the perfect time to start. GET BAKIN'!!

good lent to all,

ilya

Dear and Revered Ilya,

Who is your avatar? Do we know him?

I could barely calm down the shakiness of my fingers for the excitement over the Prosphora issue you raised here .

But now that I have, five loaves are basically used, but the Old Believers use seven. Does it make a difference?

The parishes who use loaves are those who would take their time in celebrating the Divine Liturgy, observing all the rites etc.

This includes the serving of the Hours, the prayers before and after Communion, the rite of touching the heads of the communicants with the chalice etc.

That is, to me, the real issue - those who take their time and those who are into "Quickies."

Do you agree?

And how would you get the latter parishes to enter fully into the richness of our liturgical celebrations.

Short of coming to them yourself with the Quire and your father . . . We await him at St Vlad's at Thornill!

Alex

greeks use one loaf, slavs use five, old believers seven, whatever tradition you use the important thing is, as alex said, taking your time.

Something as important as the Divine Liturgy should not be rushed but rather taken with dignity. This involves all aspects of the service including the Hours, the Priest's prayers before the iconostas, the Prothesis, and after the liturgy prayers after communion.

"SERVE THE LORD WITH FEAR, AND WITH TREMBLING PAY HOMAGE TO HIM."

and again

"I WILL ENTER INTO THY HOUSE, I WILL WORSHIP TOWARDS THY HOLY TEMPLE IN FEAR OF THEE."

Do you see this in church on Sunday? Is the priest saying the prayers with fear and trembling, or is he saying them so fast you couldn't understand him even if you tried?

People notice this stuff. How many of you have ever heard this prayer:

Sovereign Lord, our God and Father,
you established in heaven ranks and armies
of angels and archangelsfor the liturgy of your glory.
As we your people, gather here, let holy angels join in our assembly that they may offer liturgy with us,
and together we may glorify your goodness.
For all glory...

This is the prayer of the little entrance. Isn't it nice? But most priests mutter it in their head or don't say it at all. What sort of message is that sending the people?

anyway.

i won't get to into it.

ilya

Oh, the picture is Saint Tikhon, Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia, one of the Enlighteners of North America.

Dear Ilya Romanovich,

Very good - you are truly steeped in authentic liturgical Orthodoxy!

(where did you learn to sing so beautifully? And you know more about the rubrics than most priests!)

Alex

Dear Aleks'

Of course Ilya Romanovich knows his rubrics, he is a true Djak.

Dear Adam,

Well, I'm "Dyak-ful" for that!

Alex

Dear Friends:

Its a real shame about the use of croutons.

I understand that Patriarch Joseph, of blessed memory, on a visit to a church in America was presented with a plastic container with croutons.

He asked, "what is this" and when it was explained to him what they were for, he said "what is wrong with you people don't you know how to bake bread in this country?"

It may be a slight paraphrase but that's how I heard it.


defreitas

Pre-cut prosphora are like "liturgical TV dinners". This is completely foreign to the tradition.

We discussed prayers for the prosphora bakers some time ago on this forum. If anyone is interested I could dig them up.

I have used several different prosphora recipes over the years. I have to say that Ilya's father's recipe is one of the simplest and produces consistent results. I don't use any other now.

Mavrodaphne is certainly a great altar wine. There are also several other Greek red wines that are also excellent. Any red wine will do in a pinch, but please, no white wine!

Through the prayers of Spyridon and Nikodim, prosphora bakers of the Monastery of the Caves (Pecherska Lavra) O Lord have mercy on us!

We have rotating "prosphora duty" in our parish. Now if I can only get our pastor to let me use my Old Believer prosphora stamps...

Dear Diak,

You are really a "Diak" of all trades . . .

How are Old Believer stamps different from others?

Alex

Hi all,

I petitioned the Eparch about 15 - 16 months ago, to change Rites, and I'm waiting for the Roman Cardinal Archbishop to sign off on it. My eight year old daughter is going to receive her first Penance and Communion this year. She attends both Roman and Ruthenian Sunday Schools. (Our Byzantine Priest comes on Saturday nights from Baltimore, some 80 miles away for us). The Roman Church will have First Eucharist Liturgy on May 3, and our Ruthenian priest will be coming on May 10. Erin, my little girl, said emphatically that she wants to receive her First Eucharist from the Ruthenian priest!
What this has to do with Prosphora is this: our deacon candidate's daughter runs the CCD program for our children. We are going to have a retreat for our two little girls who will be receiving First Eucharist this year. Part of the retreat will be to make the Proshpora for the congregation. Nice, "hands on" experience if you'll please pardon the pun. My children and I feel much more a part of our 30 or so person Byzantine community than the Roman church I've known most of my life. I'm not trying to put the Roman Church down, I've just noticed that our little community is more closely knit. And whenever I've gone to a Byzantine Church out of town, the priest has always sought me out after liturgy. I'm glad I've found my way home. I'm also glad that my children feel that it's their home too.

Happy Lent,

Rick Cooley
Hagerstown, MD

Dear Rick,

The story about your daughter's interest in the Church and being part of the community are the type of thing that make for Happy Lents.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

How excellent to see the canonarch Ilya back on here after too long an absence! I wholly second his encouragement to use real prosphora. As one who has begun to learn this fine art both for my home parish and then for the Sheptytsky Institute chapel, I have found this a great honour and also a spiritual joy and gift to be able to do. And if you start baking prosphora, you can either make them large enough or numerous enough that another tradition has to be started concomitantly, viz., antidoron. This, too, should be recovered for our people, but I have only been in two UGCC parishes (St. Elias and the Institute) where it is done regularly. Why we feel we can jettison these things is a great mystery to me.

Whilst on this topic, what do you do in a situation where (a) you have already gone to your pastor with ideas and he shows himself not only indifferent to them but firmly (contumaciously?) attached to a contrary tradition and (b) your bishop is not exactly providing leadership to encourage the recovery of such traditions, and therefore allows this priest to continue his merry Latin ways?? I can think of numerous examples that spring to mind, pre-cut prosphora being only the least of them....It becomes very disspiriting after a while.

Finally, I am all in favour of beginning to push people to reconsider their relationship to time. I LOATHE this idea that we have to rush in and out of church in an hour, or 75 minutes tops, on a Sunday. We think nothing of spending three hours out for a steak dinner with a friend. Why would we want a shorter time at the greatest meal of all? We have to get people to realize that, as the Archpriest Roman Galadza puts it so well, "If the prayer is long, your love is short."

Adam,

In regards to what to do if your pastor is not interested in anything you have to offer, whatever your priest says-goes. Pray to God to soften the hearts of our priests and enlighten the dim minds our bishops. Take it from one who has been through to much of this for a 20 year old, fighting and holding grudges against your clergy will not solve a thing. What helps me is the thought that everybody dies (or in the case of basilians- retire). I know this might sound harsh, but face the facts, these guys aint gonna change. So just remember, no matter how ignorant your metropolitan is he is bound to be replaced, hopefuly by a wise, just, kind-hearted and most of all fatherly person.
So keep pushing the envelope, slowly, quietly, peacefully, and before you know it everyone will be wearing riassas and kamilavkas and singing the second antiphon. How do you think we came so far with our parish?


And on the topic of antidoron, the antidoron should consist of only the scraps from the proskomidia. It should be recieved with great reverence. This means fasting from midnight (as is always done before liturgy, even if not receiving communion) and being in church from the beginning of the service.

ilya

And the proshphora can also be taken home for consumption after fasting during the week until the next Divine Liturgy. A small table with holy water and the prosphora can be set up near the bright corner for this purpose.

Once you have restablished antidoron you can then work on the priest to allow commemorative prosphora with names of the living and dead being given when the faithful buy a loaf, and the blessed prosphora can be consumed at home during the week. St. John of Kronstadt Press has some nice commemoration sheets that can be left next to the prosphora basket for people to write down the names of those living or dead they wish to commemorate in list form when they contribute the prosphora before the Liturgy begins.

That's also a fringe benefit of being the prosphora baker - you can make sure that plenty of smaller prosphora make it to church for blessing and distribution.

Thess are yet more beautiful traditions that allow the "domestic church" to be that extension of our parish liturgical life that it should be.

Dear Diak and Ilya,

To even be among such liturgists of our Church simply gives me goose-pimples all over!

I think that the service of Panahia practiced in our families would help to strengthen all what you are talking about, liturgy beginning at home, the prosphora etc.

My grandfather who was a priest and his presbytera would take a whole day to bake prosphora.

I would help and one knew it was a sacred time.

In addition to missing them, I miss the time I spent with them in this activity.

Alex

Alex, sorry for my inattentiveness, but you asked about the Old Rite prosphora stamp. These are very different from the Greek-style that is in use with most parishes, which has the equilateral Greek cross with IC XC NI KA in the four corners.

The Old Rite stamp has the inscription in Slavonic "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" around the outside border of the stamp, with an Old Believer style cross (also similar to that seen on the habits of monks/nuns of the Great Schema) inside at the center of the stamp with the instruments of the Passion (lance and sponge) on either side of the central cross, etc.

Dear Ilya,

Thanks for your wisdom. You are right about waiting these guys out. Things have to change, and it seems to me that they can only change in the direction we want because the other direction has been tried and found wanting, and is clearly not meeting the needs of people today.

I`m just reading Schmemann`s book on the Eucharist presently, and he proposes two things which are germane to our discussion here. First, he maintains that the rite of proskomedia should be resurrected as a public part of the liturgy, rather than something rushed through in a whispered, hasty fashion, so that the people can come to appreciate the depth of richness in the prayers and actions. Second, he argues that we need to get back to the individual offering of a prosphora for the living and the dead, and so, in both instances, recover a fuller sense of sacrifice as constitutive of the Christian`s life.

What do people think about that?

And on an unrelated note, I`ve been wondering lately about liturgical colour schemes. My understanding is that there are only two categories-bright and dark vestments. In most of our parishes, for the Great Fast and funerals I`ve seen dark red (ie., red with a lot of black threaded in) being used, but are there other options? I only ask because I was procrastinating the other day on Istok and they have some rather fabulous looking highbacks in a most excellent shade of purple (which has always been my favourite colour)….


Adam

Adam, black is actually a Latinized color borrowed from "high requiems".

You are correct, there are only two color schemes, bright and dark. Red and purple are equally appropriate as "dark". Even amongst the Orthodox they are getting away from using black which was a common Greek and later Russian borrowing from the Latins.

Particular colors (white for Pascha, green for Pentecost, etc.) have come into practice for certain great feast days but really these are all days of "bright" vestments and the particular colors are more recent variants.

I'm more of a red type-guy myself for days of dark vestments (I think gold thread and galloon looks nicer against red than purple but without any black) but my oldest son does not agree as like you he's in the purple camp.

Speaking about the proskomidia, the gifts were originally prepared by the deacons in the diakonikon from the gifts brought by the people. Thus the "Great Entrance" was much more of a real entrance procession from the diakonikon which was a separate room or building with the gifts.

I have a priest friend who moved his proskomidia table out into the center of the nave along the north wall and many people will gather around while he is celebrating the Prothesis. The people can walk right up and offer their commemorative prosphora which are taken by a server or the deacon.

I think the point is valid about waiting it out with priests unwilling to follow the proper liturgical prescriptions and traditions of the Church. Believe me (unfortunately speaking from experience) verbal or written exchanges only go so far and can create lifetime grudges and ruined relationships with the hierarchy. Prayer, charity, and searching out a sympathetic bishop and parish where possible form a much more proactive approach.

Far be it for me to poo-poo anybody younger than I for having an interest in such things. Once upon a time I did too. (Alas, no longer.) You all are to be commended for your devotion and love for your Church.

But is it any wonder that this forum is almost totally quiet? Most of the Byzantine Catholic teens who might look in this forum have absolutely *NO* idea what any of you are talking about. Sad but true.

Fellows,

As for vestment colours, I agree with you but I also think the more varierty the better. Personally I like black for lent and funerals. It conveys a very somber message and creates the right type of atmosphere, this is one westernization that i am in favour of. I do not like red during lent. Purple is probably most appropriate. I thought that red for the slavs was a colour of joy and triumph, which is why it is worn on the 3rd sunday of lent for the veneration of the cross and why russian wear it at Pascha (which is interensting because one of the canons for the 3rd sunday of lent is "O day of Ressurection...).

ilya

I was under the impression that black as a liturgical color was adopted by the "Russians" (whether that means Muscovites, Ukrainians, Rusyns, I'm not positive) first; apart from a few photographs, I've never seen Greeks wear black vestments. The Greeks generally seem to have retained the "light/dark" color scheme (although there are some exceptions!), so if they have black, it is not part of a defined color scheme. Overall, one could say the idea of a specific color scheme is a "Latinization", but one could also say it is an organic development with the availability of dyes, colored brocades, etc. Personally, I am a big fan of a liturgical color scheme, including nice black vestments, but I would not view it as a straight jacket. Anyway, I digress...

Red is an interesting color because it can either be viewed as "light" or "dark". Recall that many Greeks often wear red on Pascha, and the Muscovite liturgical usage seems to be white for Paschal Matins and red for the Paschal Liturgy. Before Vespers this past Saturday, my priest asked me what color he should wear. We wear purple on the weekdays of the Great Fast, so he wondered if he should wear gold, or what. We got talking about the light/dark scheme, the color scheme, etc. In my mental ustav, a good "rule of thumb" during fasts is that one would wear a lighter color (in a liturgical color scheme, one color lighter) on Sundays. Many Russians wear black on weekdays of the Great Fast, and purple on Sundays. The older Ruthenian usage was purple on weekdays, red on Sundays. If you wear red on weekdays, wear gold on Sundays. In the end, my priest wore red. Our red vestments are rather bright anyway, so it's all good.

Having ranted thusly, I've gotta agree with Lemko: while some of us, including this 20 year old from PA, get into all these ecclesiastical leaves, the majority of people and youth need and desire the fruit of faith. Think of the fig tree! Sometimes we just have to admit that not everybody in the church was reading liturgical history at 15 or something like that. And just because they aren't into the kitsch doesn't mean they're bad or inferior. They might be able to appreciate nice liturgy, especially in the Byzantine tradition, but most of these details we fret over are inconsequential to them.

In conclusion, I like colors.

Back to my midterm!

-Dave

I agree that the color contrast and variation in vestments can be very nice. I like fabrics with crosses or other decoration of different color than the base material. It is nice to change things up and occasionally wear a red orarion over the gold stikharion or green orarion over gold, etc. But that is a wonderful thing about the economia and flexibility of the Byzantine tradition. The color groups are only general and there are a myriad of local variations.

It is interesting that in the Nastol'naya Kniga Sviashchenno-sluzhitelia the option of purple or dark red is given for feasts of the Holy Cross. Palm Sunday is given as a "green" day like Pentecost. There is also a distinction in red between "blood red" or darker red/crimson and "krasnyi" which is a brigher red which was used ("in some places" according to the text) for the vigils of Pascha and the Nativity in the Flesh. While I love bright red there is nothing like the brilliant white of Pascha.

But even in this regard the Nastol'naya Kniga Sviashchenno-sluzhitelia only gives general color groups and admits there are multiple local variations.

The Ukrainian and Carpatho-Ruthenian churches seem to have more generally followed the Greek usage and kept red as a "dark" color and not specifically differentiated between shades of red, hence the predominance of red as "the" Lenten, funeral, and Holy Cross color.

I was at a Great and Holy Friday at a Serbian parish once several years ago where the priest had black vestments with some gold thread. I have to admit it was very striking.

It is my understanding that in the Russian church black was only introduced with the funeral of Peter the II in 1821 and became common for funerals and some portions of Lent thereafter.

Speaking of black vestments, it is interesting that Bishop Lazar Puhalo actually preached that black vestments are "anti-Orthodox". The OCA seems to have generally gotten away from using black in the US.

If you want to see color, contrast and variation try the pink and gold of the Ethiopians with big flowers embroidered, along with those brightly colored umbrellas...

Here is Bishop Lazar's statement on black:
http://www.new-ostrog.org/blackvestments.html

While the OCA has gotten away from black for funerals and memorial services, I believe that black is still quite common for Great Friday and such.

Color significance always intrigues me, since it really is a cultural issue. I found out the other day that, in Chinese culture, red is the color of gladness and is worn for weddings. In ancient Egypt, black was the color of life, and white was the color of death. Why? Black is the color of the silt from the Nile flooding, and white is the color of the desert sand.

-Dave

You are correct about Chinese culture, Chtec. At a wedding of Chinese members of St. Mary's Antiochian Orthodox Church in Cambridge, MA, the clergy wore red vestments, and the bride wore traditional red Chinese wedding garments.

OrthodoxEast

Chtec<<While the OCA has gotten away from black for funerals and memorial services, I believe that black is still quite common for Great Friday and such.>>

This is so in many places, but not universal. In some OCA parishes black vestments are never worn, not even on Great and Holy Friday--purple is worn instead.

In my present OCA parish, black vestments with silver thread interwoven is worn by clergy for the Presanctified Liturgies of Wednesday and Friday evenings and for the services on Great and Holy Friday, but gold is worn for funerals, even on Lenten weekdays. On Saturdays and Sundays of Great Lent, purple is worn, even for Soul Saturday Divine Liturgies and Panikhidas; blue is worn for the Feast of the Annunciation; white for Lazarus Saturday, and gold for Palm Sunday.

OrthodoxEast

[QUOTE In ancient Egypt, black was the color of life, and white was the color of death. Why? Black is the color of the silt from the Nile flooding, and white is the color of the desert sand. [/QUOTE]


Dear Chtec:

Considering the Semitic origins of Christianity, it is safe to assume that we received black as a mourning colour from ancient Egypt.

Throughout the world it is white which is regarded as the colour of death and not black, even the ancient Romans used white.

As to the usage of dark colour, it is my belief that the colour tone originally used as black was in actuality a very deep purple.

Anyone familiar with old cassocks will know exactly what I mean.

It is too bad that such a fine and dignified colour should have come to mean something morose.

Latinism be Dammed, there is nothing like a fine set of black vestments for sheer beauty.


defreitas

Actually, I said the opposite: the ancient Egyptian color of death was white (the color of the desert sands) and the color of life was black (the color of the silt from the Nile flooding which was needed for the growing of crops).

And I have to agree: there's nothing like a nice set of black vestments.

-Dave

Dear Chtec:

We misunderstand each other, the colour of mourning was black for Egypt and this represented life and not death.

Black was the colour of the resurrection of the body, which the Egyptians so believed in that they made an industry out of preserving their dead.

In the tombs of the Pharos were placed life-sized figures of the deceased.

These figures had skin which was painted black.

The land of Egypt received a yearly rebirth though the black silt of the Nile, so too would these figures come to life through the same life-giving colour.

The Ka or Soul would inhabit the figure and live again to enjoy all the aspects of its former earthly existence.


White = death (the sand, bleached bones)

Black = life (the rich mud of the earth)


Do we agree?


defreitas

Yup.

I guess I killed this topic with my last post.

you sure did ,
thanks.

ilya

Dear Friends,

Certainly, the Black Madonna icon in the East, as I understand, represents the "Mother of Light."

Just as anything we put up to the sun turns dark, so too does the skin of the Mother of God who is "clothed with the sun."

The rich, black earth is also symbolically represented.

Alex

You have a thing with dark skin now, don't you Alex?

Dear Diak,

Actually, I'm more in the red right now . . .

Alex

i

Nice picture of St. Mykola Charnetsky, Illya. Have a holy Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday this weekend.

Diak<<Nice picture of St. Mykola Charnetsky, Illya.>>

Diak, who was Mykola Charnetsky? Nice old photo. If this hierarch wasn't Eastern Orthodox, he sure dressed the part!

OrthodoxEast

The Winnipeg Archeparchy has documents from the beatification of the Ukrainian New Martyrs.

http://www.archeparchy.ca/archeparchy/martyrs.htm#Materials

Please, use 'Nikolai', it is the proper (church)form of the name in ukrainian.

HOLY FATHER NIKOLAI OF SEMAKIVTSI AND VOLHYN' PRAY TO GOD FOR US!

Dear Ilya,

It's "Mykolai" if you want to be so Ukrainian about it!

But ultimately, both St Mykolai and St Vasyl Velichkovsky "dressed the part" in Volyn to bring Orthodox into communion with Rome.

St Vasyl mentions three Pochaiv monks and two Orthodox theologians who came into communion with Rome through his mission efforts and who died as martyrs.

Alex

Isn't that rather "Fifth Columnist" activity??

I would't be to sure of that Alex. Firsly, Nikolai is the church form of the name, and when have I ever been ukrainian about anything? I would just like to take this oppertunity to say

HOLY GOD, RESTORE THE TSAR AND HAVE MERCY ON RUS', AMEN!

Have you ever thought that it might have been the other way around with Saint Nikolai of Volhin', maybe instead of trying to get people to "return to catholisism" or "return to orthodoxy", he was simply being an example for us. Trying to live in peace with our fellow bretheren, orthodox or catholic. It has been my experience that if you pray like the orthodox (this includes dressing the part) after a while they forget why they never liked you. I am convinced that unity will not come from "you convert to us" but rather praying together. Unfortunately most of the byzantine catholic church is no longer recognizable to any orthodox.
When the local ROCOR priest came to do a funeral at my church his comment was "there isn't anything catholic about it!". This is the direction we need to move in.

BEHOLD HOW GOOD AND HOW PLEASENT IT IS WHEN BROTHERS DWELL TOGETHER IN UNITY.

'nough said.

ilya

hello ILYA,

You dont know me but Im from STS V and O in Chicago. I met your dad in Arizona this past fall and he told me our peeps and your ideas are one in the same. We are renewing out youth brotherhood which your uncle is very familiar with and was wondering if you had anything we could use to start off like reatreat type stuff or something. I heard you guys have a nice youth group. That question goes out to everyone out there.

Well, nice to meet ya via cyber space.

Hospody, spasy y sokhrany Patriarkha nashoho.

XPUCTOC BOCKPEC!

i forgot
we GOT A WEBSIGHT

www.bratstvo.com

HOLY GOD, RESTORE THE TSAR AND HAVE MERCY ON RUS', AMEN!
- Ilya Romanovich


ILYA DONT FORGET. YOU ARE UKI. NOT RUSSIAN. DONT FORGET, EVEN THE TZAR's MADE OUR PEOPLE SUFFER.

HOW DO YOU CHANGE THIS JUNIOR MEMBER GARBAGE.

I'm NOT A JUNIOR

UNLESS A JUNIOR IS FINISHING COLLEGE?

Your status is that of a junior member because you just started posting. If you post more, you'll move up the ranks.

Whoa,

since when are people allowed to tell me who and what I can and can't like.

I am a Tsarist.

I am Canadian.

I am Ilya Roamnovich.

(defend me Jose)

Dear Ukipatr:

Do you mean to tell me that there is some comparison to be made between being ruled by an Orthodox Christian Prince (no matter what his personal faults) and being ruled by the Godless?

Tsarism may not be to everyone’s taste, especially at the beginning of a new century but it cannot compare to what the Godless did to faith, culture, society, and the world, during their accursed rule.

Just sit down with a piece of paper and do some number crunching; write down how many people you think were murdered, enslaved, tortured or imprisoned under the soviets.

I am not saying the Tsars were completely without blame, heaven knows that they made serious mistakes.

But to have anti-religion as an official government policy is just monstrous (please do forget about what was printed on that nice piece of paper called the soviet constitution)

Tsarism today, as I see and believe it to be, is nothing more than the reestablishment of rule by an Orthodox Christian Prince.

I acknowledge that I may be seeing the world through rose coloured glasses, but here I stand.

If you go to Church occasionally you will hear the invocations to Royal Saints, there were if you would care to know quite a few of them.

As to Ukrainian nationalist feelings regarding Tsarism I can understand the thirst for freedom against foreign oppression (I have been personally effected by the same).

If you look at all of the European Dynastic and Ruling Families, you will notice that right down to a man or woman, they are all fully believing Christians.

And in the case of at least four Royal personages, causes for canonization are currently being investigated.


Ukipatr try not to limit yourself to the narrow confines of personal surroundings and experiences, but embrace beauty and goodness wherever you find it.

My Great-Great Granddad... was a Guy named Adam, and my Great-Great Grandmummy... was a Woman named Eve (come to think of it we may be related?)

In between I am or have been

Azorean
Portuguese
Canadian
Catholic

And I have legitimately adopted through a deep love and affection, personal or family affiliation, the following personas:

Orthodox Christian
Russian
Austrian
Hawaiian
American
Brazilian

Understand that these things do not limit me in the slightest and only broaden my person.


I hope that I have not been over bearing in any of statements and I ask forgiveness if I have offended anyone.

Dear Ukipatr my sincere prayer is that you, your family, and friends have a Blessed and Holy Pascha.

May God and the Holy and Noble Saints of Rus-Ukraine and all the Nations Bless You.


I too can be what I wish to be,

I am a Tsarist.

I am Canadian.

I am Jose J. de Freitas-Lopes.


(is that enough of a defense Ilya?)

perfect.

thank you Jose.


Ilya

In commemoration of this event I am changing my avitar.

A picture truly is worth a thousand words.

I concur with Ilya. I will also change my avatar to commemorate this momentous event, as well as the 102nd Anniversary of the publication of the Irmologion by the Lviv Stauropegial Brotherhood.

Daniil

May God give blessed repose to those who have labored to compile the Irmologion, and bless those who continue to use it, a treasury of our holy musical heritage.

It's just a shame that Znamenny, Bulharski, the podobny, samopodobny, etc. and much of that music is unknown in our churches today. Through the prayers of St. Andrey Sheptytsky (who blessed and funded the compilation of the Irmologion) may God have mercy on us.

I also changed my avatar to St. Leonid Federov of St. Petersburg who never ceased to commemorate the Orthodox Christian royal house in his Divine Liturgies, Vespers and Matins.

DEAR ILYA AND JOSE

I was not trying to make the impression that i was telling anyone to think in a certain way or like one thing. Just making a reminder. My point was that Ukrainains are not Russians and comments like the one Ilya is making could make some non-informed, non-Ukrainains believe that Russia and Ukraine is the same thing. I am just sick of trying to explain to people that they are different.

Another point. READ A LITTLE HISTRY AND YOULL FIND OUT THAT MOST LIKELY YOUR ANCESTORS WERE ENSLAVED UNDER SURFDOM.

DO YOU KNOW WHO TARAS SHEVCHENKO IS?

READ HIS POEMS THEN YOULL KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.

OK, Enough of that. ILYA, did you read my first post. Im serious bout my question and comments. if you want reply to it, itll be interesting and inciteful for me.

Again no hard feelings, I also am entitled to an oppinion.
I had to say something cause my ancestry was tragic under circumstances under Tzarism My GreaGreat Great etc Grandfather was a Zaporizhian "sotnyk". Half of the family was wiped out.

Again, not trying to be an A-- H---!

I am a greco catholic pro orthodox person! Im talking Ukrainain Orthodoxy and Petro Mohyla!
(by the way, he was Moldovan, who loved his homeland and Ukraine, for those who question my hitorical knowledge)

Utverdy Bozhe Sviatu Pravoslavnu Viry na Viky Vikiv!

UKIPATR

I forgot to make an important point in my debate.


REAL CHRISTIANS DO NOT ENSLAVE AND KILL PEOPLE. TZARS DID. PERIOD.

Actually,
a large brach of my family moved to Saint Petersburg from Galicia because they were faithful to the Tsar. They still live there and we are still quite close.

ilya

Ukipatr,

I too do not venerate the Romanov royal family for the simple fact we have so many great saints/martyrs in our own history as Ukrainians. The Romanovs did have their flaws and I do not think they were the best for Ukraine, but they were good stewards of Orthodoxy. I haven't read too much on them to comment too much.

I wouldn't go so far myself to say restore the Tzar. I'd say, Restore the Kozak Hetmante!!!

-uc

THERE YOU GO!
KOZAK HETMANATE!

Hey, I agree the Romanovs were good stewards for orthodoxy (hey, there's a whole tonal system and chant written just for them).

the main thing here is LETS CREATE A UKRAINIAN PATRIARCHATE.

WE DESERVE IT! Hey, if it wasnt for Kyiv and Prince Volodymyr's decision to accept orthodoxy, all of eastern Europe would have been muslim, jewish, or western catholic! Kyiv is the center of Slavic Spirituality and Orthodoxy

UKRPATER

Dear Ilya Romanovich,

Sorry for coming back to this thread so late . . .

As a monarchist, I've no problems with you being one.

I've no problem with the veneration of the Romanov Martyrs either.

I just believe there is no political place in Ukraine for the Muscovite Tsars - if you come across a Ukrainian patriot who thinks there is, please contact me right away!

St Nikolai (all right, let it be as you say!) Charnetsky and St Basil Velichkovsky could truly be said to be a "Uniate fifth column" as Brian-Seraphim noted earlier.

They certainly did "dress the part" and wrote the part.

And they truly did "bring over" Orthodox into union with Rome.

St Basil Velichkovsky makes mention of five such converts from Orthodoxy who died as martyrs for Rome and whose cause for canonization he introduced at Rome (including three Pochaiv Monks).

There is really no question that they donned the most Orthodox of vestments and liturgical rubrics to spread the Unia.

Their mission was NOT about ecumenical understanding, but about conversion.

Alex