Glory to Jesus Christ! Slave Isusu Christu!

Dear ByzanTEENS,
we are the present of the Byzantine Catholic church but more importantly part of its future so I ask you as a fellow teen, what do you think of the new Translations? Or the Idea of the new Translations?
-Katie G

I think it is very sad what is being done. However, I ask that God's will be done, whatever that may be. He will lead the Church where it needs to be.

When the people who came over to America founded our Church, they apperantly screwed a few things up, given that they were doing things from memory. Also, it's nice to have a little bit of standardism to help out any and all guests. Also the books don't have the music or good explanations of what the heck is going on.

Given that, I would conclude that:

a) A new translation has been necessary for many years.

b) The music for ANY translation has been necessary (if only for the guest's sake) for even longer.

Good on all counts in my book. Sorry if that irriates people because they're sentimental about the old music, but that's life. If the ETHNIC (I capitalized that on purpose) bishops realized that there was a problem, then there is. God knows what He's doing, and that's all there is to it in the end.

Nathan, my family who came from the "old country" screwed nothing up....they were the epitome of everything good.

Dear ProudByz,
I could not agree with you more. I was just trying to find the words to express what you and I feel without being mean. You said it and quite simply so, our families were hardworking loyal Byzantine Catholics who poured every drop our their heart and soul into their church. How dare you Nathan say that they screwed things up. You can say that the church fell away from its roots over the years after Vatican II but don't you ever say that the founders of our church in America screwed things up ever again.

A sad and quite frankly almost disgusted,
Katie g

Slava Isusu Christu!

Nathan, Nathan, Nathan. I pray your post is being misinterpreted.

Nothing was “screwed up.” Yes, our church is a product of our history, schisms and misunderstandings. Yet, it is also the bride of Christ.

IMHO, the reason we're able to worship as Byzantines today at all in Illinois is because the families of Katie G, ProudByz and others built and supported our church in Joliet. Without their blood, sweat and tears we wouldn't have what we have in Homer Glen. I am grateful and mindful of their precious sacrifice for us.

I'm not even going to get into the Liturgy debate...

In Christ,

John

let's not forget all of the dear old timers from St. Mary's Byzantine Catholic Church in Chicago!

Yes, thanks ProudByz. And St. Mary's Mission in Oak Lawn. I'd also add St. Mary's in Whiting. A number of our parishoners hail from that parish.

Oh really. Last time I checked everyone's families are fallen, and therefore CAN'T be the epitome of good. And since when is the Byzantine Church a "family" thing anyway? I thought it was meant for all peoples of all nations at all times. Face it, as someone who is NOT ethnic I really don't care in the slightest if your grandparents or great grandparents set this music up. What I care about is whether it works or not, and whether there's a better way. And if there's a better way, to take that better and to not look back. Please don't take that as a personal attack on your grandparents, they are good people, but there's the simple truth that if what we had at their time wasn't the best that we could get and if we can do a better job we need to. We're climbing a mountain here, ProudByz. We can't stay in one spot for long otherwise we fall off and die. You're talking about sentiments, and while I respect that, I"m talking about survival. Those are two very very different things.

Well, obviously something didn't go right, otherwise the bishops wouldn't be asking for a new translation that according to some is long overdue. I'm not saying that your parents didn't do a good job, I know I'd do an even worse one. I'm saying that obviously what they did was not good enough, because the bishops want to change it. If you wish to be angry and disgusted at someone, be so at the bishops who think that we could do better. If you don't think so, go ahead and think that. Just realize that you're disobeying God's mouth pieces and that that's wrong.

I hope it is as well. Maybe I'm also not the kindest speaker in the house either. I'm thinking it's the latter, that I'm just a tad too blunt.

After what you just said here, I think we have a difference of terms. Thank you for clearing that up John.

I never said I wasn't grateful for that blood and tears, now was I? Without people like Katie and ProudByz who helped build that church I would probably be pushing daisies right now, not sitting here at a computer trying to not quarrel with them (and doing a not so hot job of it). What I am saying though is that there's always room for improvement, and if the bishops agree with that we have a duty to obey them if it fits inside of the overall tradition that we have, not the tradition three or so generations back. And apparently what they're doing does fit within that overall tradition.

I apologize for being blunt, but I don't know how to put my words any other way. You either thrive or die, and in interest of keeping this lovely, beautiful, prayerful, peaceful, and all together God focused church alive I think the new music will help us. If it didn't I wouldn't be saying what I'm saying.

Peace of Christ,
Nathan Augustine

On a sidenote, Katie, realize that when you ask for people's opinions it's not very charitable to go in and personally bash them repeatedly. Kinda makes them wonder if they should speak at all.

Just a thought.

Peace of God be with you,
Nathan Augustine

On a sidenote Nathan you should start caring about the people who brought this church to America becuase without them the Byzantine church wouldn't have thrived in America. I agree with John S. The people who founded the church didn't screw things up. They did what they cold to stay true to their faith and make sure their church thrived. Thus, some changes had to be made. I think it's sad you don't care about a vital part in our churches history.

Yours in Chritst,
Katie g

Who says now that I don't care...? If you feel like putting words in my mouth please do it another time, or even better, never.

Please realize that that I respect the people who came over. They went through (almost literally at some points) hell and back to get us our church. I know the general history and I respect them for their endurance and faith. However, some of the things that they had then won't work now, and we, out of respect for them, must give them up. The current way we celebrate liturgy is one of those ways. And trust me, someday what we we'll be getting won't be counted as good enough, because there'll be a higher, better way of doing it. At that poing, I sure hope they chuck what we're doing out the window and go with what they found. It seems like you want to go with emotion and sentiments (oh, our fathers, did it, we shouldn't change it!) which doesn't work. Otherwise Father Tom would have used egg tempera on the walls of our church instead of house paint/acrylic because egg tempera is the way the old country does it and how dare we improve on what they had thought up of.

Face it, Katie, better things come up. And they shouldn't be shoved to the wayside. And with that I respectfully withdraw from this little rat trap of a quarrel so that way I don't have to endure being bashed by my OWN youthgroup yet again over something stupid that they'll agree with me in the long run again.

Peace in Christ,
Nathan Augustine

Nathan I am not putting words in your mouth. Did you not say that since you are not ethnically connected to our church that you don't care about the music that my grandparents and the grandparents of others set up? And while in the long run I will accept the new music I will hold on even tighter to my heritage and ethnic roots because I am a Byzantine Catholic of the Ruthenian Rite and I think part of that needs to show forth in our church for ages to come. We are trying to bring out the more correct translations of the music but we can do that without suppressing all forms of ethnicity. Why are you so adverse to the ethnic nature. I'm not talking about singing everything in Slovanik because i even understand that that would not be good but some people enjoy the ethnicity. I will in time accept new music. Also do not bring in personal problems that you may have with our youth group. This is you and me. I don't see anyone else from our youth group posting here. I'm sorry if you feel like you were being "attacked" but perhaps you should read over some of your posts. Saying that I am disobeying bishops is a form of attack and also cruely judgemental. I know that there is nothing i can do about the new music but I honestly don't think that all of this is going to work out. I think it will have to be changed again and again over the years. I only hope that we can hold together as a church and endure it and emerge stronger. If not for us then for the sake of the younger generation and our children.

In Christ,
Katie g

tradition, meaning behind what is done and how it is done, reverance, respect, feeling the presence of God as one walks into the church, seeing/hearing/smelling those special things and traditions which are so inherently Byzantine, again reverance....these are the tangible , external "signs" which make our rite so awe inspiring to me and I hope they are never lost

Amen amen amen

Katie, keep up your kind and rational thinking. Although I'm not a teen, I stop by to read what the youth are thinking and find your posts to be commendable. Nathan will never know the depth of your Love for your church as he has no roots to speak of. As a newcomer, he is much to quick to point his finger in a tactless and insensitive manner. This can be attributable to a maturity he does not yet know. We have to learn to become tolerant of those who pack up their religious beliefs and move them from church to church. Time will tell all. God is with us!!!

Welcome to the Byzantine Forum Larry!

Thank you Pani Rose.

Greetings to all! I wonder if this thread might benefit from someone who can give us a deep perspective on how and why translations change in the history of the Church. There is a long tradition for the development of translations of the Liturgy in the Church. I would recommend Mr. Mike Oravecz, it he is interested.

Peace to all

Tim Woods

Archbishop Raya of +memory...

Archbishop Joseph Raya recognized and responded to the problem of language. The Byzantine Church in America had always use the language of the nation it came from. He realized they were loosing the young people because they could barely understand the language. And he could not speak English. So he actually went to elementry school for two years to learn it. Then in 1958, he published what we call 'The Raya.' It is actually the Byzantine Daily Worship, which has been used throughout the Churches until now. I am not the least bit involved in this new translation but the sence I get is that they feel there were changes that were needed to allow it to be a more accurate translation - because of better understanding of word translation.

Restoration

Dear Pani Rose,
Thanks for the insight about the translation and the change of music! And welcome to the forum Larry!

-Katie g

Katie,

I understand your loyalty to your anscestors. It's a beautiful thing. How do you see a new translation as a threat to that loyalty? It is my understanding that the new translation is an attempt to capture what you anscestors knew a bit better than our present translation. Don't you think the big problem is that we haven't seen or used the translation yet? I don't think Nathan meant that your anscestors did anything intentionally wrong no more than you or are intend to do wrong, at least most of the time. It's just that translating anything from one language to another is very difficult and in time a word or phrase that meant one thing at one time means something else at another time. This necessitates new translations every so often.

E.g., cool used to mean "somewhat less than warm". Then it came to mean "hip". But then hip used to mean "that part of the anatomy that connects our thigh to our back" then it came to mean, well, I'm not sure since I've never been very "hip". And that's just an example of changes in one language. The translators at any given time whether it was Sts. Cyril and Methodius or any group of translators before or since have the problem of putting idioms into a different language. Our modern group had to work with not only upgrading the English but also in carefully translating from the Slovanic to English and the underlying Greek to English. I'm thankful for their efforts. I'm thankful for your anscestors' efforts when they made translations.

As you know, I've argued that it would be better if we got a chance to actually see the new translation before it is promulgated. It's just a wise thing to do. But I don't attribute any evil intent to the commission and our bishops for not doing so, even though I wish they had.

In any event, let us not have a translation be a point of division.

Dan Lauffer

The restoration of various authentic Eastern practices, such as the rite of pouring hot water into the chalice before Communion, and others are welcome.

But the new translation is another matter. I have seen the text and see that in some parts attempts are made at accurate translation, but at other times accuracy is not foremost (as in the case of "politically correct" renditions).

Philanthropos, lover of man(kind), becomes "loves us all" We still have "ever and forever" instead of "to the ages of ages", "for us men [i.e., humans] becomes "for us" -- us who? Etc.

Then complain to the bishops, and ask to have it changed. I'm sure that if enough of a ruckus is made about such things, they will respond.