I was at Uniontown this weekend and i must say that the youth presence was great! We got together and made a list of points to talk to the bishops about. It was mainly about how we want to see our church in the future and wat we think needs to happen to make our church survive.
some of the things were:More old Slavonic in the liturgies, more youth interaction with the rest of the parish, more open house to other religions,the choice of sitting or standing, and bringing back the more traditional styles of architecture in our church.I think it was a great weekend and can't wait to go back.

-Katie g

I was very impressed by the witness of our youth. There must have been close to 100, wasn't there? You all acquitted yourselves wonderfully and were examples of and to all the believers. If I recall, you also called for a renewed emphasis upon vocations.

God grant you many blessed years.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Katie,
Could you please elaborate on what you mean by this? Thanks.

Yeah sure i meant that we as teens think that we need to get more people to visit our churches. Whether they be Roman catholics protesants or even people who used to be Byzantine. We think that like once a month we could have an open house night or something.is that any better if not i will tryto do better.

-Katie g

That's fine, I get it now. Thanks. I think teens are in a perfect position to invite their friends to the Byzantine Catholic church; they just need to be able (to explain) and inspired/excited to do so.

When I was a teen, my parents pushed me to join a youth group at the local Assembly of God church that a friend of mine was part of. (I don't know if he was really an Assembly of God member or not--he never actually talked about his religion.) This youth group had others like me who were not previously members of the Assemblies of God religion, but through their involvement with this youth group, many did join that church. Fortunately I never got caught up enough in it to do that (I was not particularly grounded in my Catholic faith but knew enough to explain the typical things when they came up, e.g., "Why do you pray to statues?" when it was "discovered" that I was a Catholic).

Anyway, with the good things I saw going on with the teens at Uniontown, if those things can be replicated on a smaller scale in a parish, I imagine that this could be a wonderful way to introduce more teens to the Byzantine Christian way of life. Our teens can do that!

My Dear Ruthenian Friends,

Just a note to congratulate you and your entire Church for maintaining such a well-attended pilgrimage at Uniontown!

I heard of it even before I came to this forum and have always wanted to attend it.

May it grow and develop each and every year, bringing fresh visitors to it, and drawing all to the Lord and His Most Holy Mother!

Alex

Katie, I guess the ethos is really different out here in the West. I can't imagine any of our teens in Seattle even thinking of suggesting a need for more Slavonic. To my own thinking, the use of Slavonic is anti-missionary and anti-Cyril-and-Methodius. There are very few self-identified Slavs in our parish, and I can't imagine hoping for church growth by bringing in persons with a nostalgia for Slavonic. There just aren't that many around here. We're mostly melting-pot white Americans, with some folks of Chinese, Japanese, or Native American descent. Church survival may require us to look outward to the culture we live in and to our own demographic realities.

I do encourage you to keep thinking of the Church as your own and to continue to take responsibility for her. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Michael,

If Katie were presenting the ideas of a group of traditional Roman Catholic young people who said about things they "think need to happen to make our church survive; some of the things were:More *Latin* in the liturgies," would you say this was anti-missionary, anti-evangelism, anti-Gospel? No? I didn't think so.

Hi L-R,

I don't see where Latin in the Roman church is part of any successful recipe for evangelism. Methinks you assume too much. As it is Mr. Brooks comments are, well just opinion, and he may be right.

And neither Slavonic or Latin are anti-Gospel, I don't see where you got that.

Perhaps the best we could say is Slavonic should be used where the people call for it, there are plenty of parishes east of the Mississippi that have ethnic congregations that may appreciate it. Katie G is calling for it and that is fine for her parish if it works. Mr. Brooks comments were very respectful and he stated that in his region the people wouldn't appreciate it.

Most non-Byzantines have never heard Church Slavonic, have no nostalgia for it and aren't any more interested in worshipping in Slavonic than Nepalese or Swahili. I see that the Divine Liturgy is really beautiful in any language but newcomers are more comfortable with the vernacular. They will learn the prayers and therefore the theology of the church in their own language, foreign (or archaic) language prayers force people to learn about the faith outside of the liturgy, that's a natural obstacle in the first few visit's of a potential convert. Especially since we are notoriously bad at bringing people in, greeting them warmly or following up after they have not returned!

If there are people out there that remember and want Slavonic in their parishes, they should definately ask for it. But as far as what Mr. Brooks has to say, I am still inclined to agree.

that other Michael

Coalesco, thank you for defnding my position better than I could have done myself. Lemko Rusyn, I certainly did not state or even remotely suggest that persons who want a non-English liturgy are "bad", anti-Gospel people. I would say to Roman Catholics that a Latin liturgy is probably not the way to evangelize America, which does not deny that a Latin Mass meets the pastoral needs of a minority of already-evangelized folk.

So, yes, a Slavonic Liturgy is anti-missionary, unless your work is in a Slavic enclave. It is anti-Cyril-and-Methodius because they made great sacrifices to translate the liturgical patrimony into Slavonic rather than insisting that the Slavs pray in Greek, and we should, largely, follow their example.

I don't think what was said at Pilgramige would hurt at all. in our area- the midwest/eastern Byzantine churches- this is what the youth wants. It has been spoken by those who represent their churches if it works to help their church grow then i don't think it is wrong. However, if we lived in an area where the majority of our church had no affiliation with Slavonic then i would say don't use it at that church. In truth our church is hurting and we need to do whatever works-and that is reasonable in our church teachings- to save it and keep it going. Old Slavonic would not be sung every sunday but if the people like it and it something they want to have then maybe it should/could be used once a month.

-Katie g

Funny how people stopped going to Mass once they got rid of it.

I know a Jesuit missionary in Nigeria whose people beg him for the Latin Mass.

Progressives should look at the numbers, drink a cup of coffee, and WAKE UP.

LatinTrad (in union with Rome, don't worry)

Well said, Katie. I think most folks do not realize that, as Byzantine Catholics, or even as Christians, or as Americans and the heirs of Western Civilization, "the Turks are already at the gates of Constantinople". We must all become spiritual and cultural survivalists.

Dear Friends,

Our Vidpust cannot compare to yours, and we too had young people.

I've often wondered how people, like our Administrator, who accepts the full Eastern position on indulgences, view the Vidpust at Uniontown?

It's something I wonder about myself . . .

Alex

Dear LT,

I am spiritually uplifted by the "Ordo Missae" of Pope Paul VI. I fully support the use of the 1962 missal as granted by Pope John Paul II. Persons who are spiritually attached to that rite should have it available to them. I also think it was a mistake to completely dump Latin from the current Mass. Kyrie Elieson (Greek), traditional hymns such as Tantum Ergo and other Latin hymns should continue to be sung to carry on tradition.

You and I share some things about Roman liturgy and I do respect and support you for your opinions.

But, I can't agree that the sole reason Mass attendance decreased is because of the change from the 1962 Roman missal.

Other things were occuring simultaneously in the Latin Church: Humana Vitae (most Catholics rejected the teaching), the steady rise in divorce and remarriage among Catholics, and the crazy rebelliousness against all institutions including the Catholic Church during the 1960's
and 1970's.

I believe your statement was incomplete and an oversimplication. Maybe I misread you
(mea culpa!). I know that posts can be limiting in expressing our complete thoughts.

When Pope John Paul II offers Mass in the new rite hundreds of thousands, even millions show up. Even young people attend the Pope's Mass in huge numbers.

Best regards,

Paul

Dear Paul,

Like you, I too share a great esteem for the new liturgy of the Roman Church.

But I can't help wonder if LT has a solid point in general.

More and more on EWTN and elsewhere in the Catholic media, the issue of the old Mass is being raised.

There are now legitimate Catholic voices within the Roman Church being raised in favour of the many positive Christian values represented by the old ways.

One priest who heads an organization that wishes to give Catholics the choice between a NO and Trad Mass was on EWTN and he said, quite bluntly, that "when the altar was turned around, the priest became a toastmaster . . ."

EWTN didn't censure him nor did his interviewer. It was a live phone-in show, and I don't remember anyone writing in to say how shocked they were etc.

And I think it is fair to say that the way in which the liturgical rubrics governing the NO on this continent have been variously interpreted by priests is what has been a major turn-off for many Latin Catholics.

I've known lapsed Latin Catholics my own age who have returned to a Tridentine liturgy in a parish that offers it - and have become very strong in their faith.

I guess we need to reflect on all this more, but it certainly does seem that the earlier effort of Vatican II to become more "in tune" with secular culture has been one big disaster.

But we need to think on this more.

I believe LT has a point concerning the mystical "other-worldliness" that is so evident in the traditional Latin Mass. I think that is also why the Eastern Churches can have such an impact on people in the West who are starved for such spiritual experience.

Alex

Alex,

I'm surprised that the thought of EWTN censuring him for that remark would even occur to you. Silent applause (off-camera) would be more in-line with their outlook to my mind. I consider EWTN about as conservative as one can get without going over the line. That from one who is not enamored of the NO and fondly remembers the Tridentine, yet considers EWTN way too far right for my taste.

Many years,

Neil

Paul, I have to disagree with you here. Humanae Vitae was no bombshell. Catholics prior to this document knew the Church's position, at least many did. If anything, the scandal here was that clergy and theologians in droves publicly encouraged dissent from Church teaching and the Western media loved it, turning it into a circus. I don't think that HV on its own would have caused such a problem, nor do I think that it presents nearly the stumbling block that people make it into.

While I agree that the changing of the Mass was not the only factor leading to the mass (sorry for the pun) exodus, there certainly are many out there who have been wandering since 1970 not sure where the church they knew and loved went to. In fact, one found his way to our parish back in January after having not been to a church since 1969. He's now preparing for Chrismation and is very committed.

Justin

Directed at no one in particular.....but reminding us all to be careful if we get into a discussion of the differences between the Novus Ordo and the old Latin Mass....

I am concerned whenever I hear anyone speak disparagingly of ANY valid form of Divine Liturgy. The Novus Ordo Mass (which I attend daily) may not be glorious and magnificent in the same sense as the old Latin Mass, but it is valid, and can be very beautiful, and ultimately any valid Mass is glorious and magnificent in the truest sense of the word.

That is why I think we should be afraid to speak a word against any Mass. It is Christ Himself offering His own body and blood....

So, if the altar is turned around one way or the other, when the Eucharist is celebrated, let us bow our heads and cry "Holy!"

Novus Ordo, Traditional Latin, Byzantine, Maronite, whoever, wherever.....let us rejoice in our....Unity In Christ

Dear UIC,

Yes, indeed!

I now view the beautiful NO Mass on EWTN first thing in the morning and it is done very reverentially (yes, as Neil says, they are a very conservative station!).

I think that there are places and times when some communities do needless violence to the NO Mass, as Rome now seems to be saying as well with the liturgical reforms statement.

Perhaps everyone thought the issues associated with the displacement of the Tridentine liturgy would have gone away by now. And, as we know, they haven't, the debate is ongoing.

It would seem, to me at least, that the Latin liturgical pendulum is swinging toward traditionalism now, even among the higher-ups at the Vatican and perhaps the Tridentine liturgy just might make a surprise comeback some years from now.

Perhaps the views of some at Rome that the NO would attract more Protestants and Protestant ecclesial communities to come home to Rome are no longer seen as a viable hope. And the views of others that wished to "modernize" the liturgy and make it more "this-worldly" are now seen as naive and a failure all around.

But the NO can be served well - it is just that things like clown Masses and "liturgical dancing" don't endear this Rite to most.

Personally, I think that if Rome brought back the Tridentine Rite, it could also bring back a number of the Uses and other Western Rites that resemble it in structure. That, for me at least, would make more of an ecumenical statement.

Alex

Alex, that's not a bad idea! Maybe you should write a letter to someone in the the hierarchy. I have no idea how one goes about contacting the right person, though.

I've never been to a Tridentine Mass. But on the feast of Corpus Christi our Latin Rite priest chanted some Latin at the end after the processional and it was so beautiful it raised the hairs on the back of my neck. And they used incense for once! (I really miss the incense of the Eastern Rite, spending all my time in Latin Rite parishes.) If a Tridentine Mass is anything like that, I can certainly understand why some people wouldn't want to give it up.

Dear Tammy,

I'll do a letter to my amigo, Archbishop Leonardo Sandri, the Undersecretary of State, right away and let him know!

I had lunch with him during World Youth Day festivities as part of a government event.

During that lunch, he joked with me that the Vatican speech-writers borrowed some material for the Pope's visit to Ukraine from an internet website called "Ukrainian Orthodoxy."

He said that it would cause quite the stir if word got out that they borrowed material from an Orthodox layman . . .

I told him not to worry about it, since I was the one who wrote those articles . . .

"Oh . . ." he said in a rather perplexed way. "That's all right then . . ."

All kinds of people wonder about me, you see . . .

Alex

Dear Alex:

While you are at it, you should try also His Eminence, Francis Cardinal Arinze, the new Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

He might be of help!

AmdG

Dear Amigo Amado,

Magandang Gabi!

I was going in to work at the legislature one fine morning when a demonstrator with a placard came up to me and said, "I would like you to carry a message to the Premier!"

I shot back, "O.K., let me know and I'll tell him all about it over breakfast . . ."

The guards really liked that . . .really

Alex

Dear UIC,

I agree. I hope no one took my comments as disparaging of the new Mass. Rather, I meant to say that there are nevertheless many out there who were very disenchanted when the Mass was changed. This is more a sociological statement--the Vatican even acknowledged the fact that were many who would have a difficult time at the personal level when it said that all elderly clerics could, with permission, continue to use the old rite. I think that there is a large number of a certain generation or two that have been wandering ever since these changes. While in certain places there was a significant amount of catechesis and preparation that accompanied these changes, there were at least as many out of which come horror stories of liturgical nazis imposing the new ways without any consideration for the people in the pews. At a pastoral level, this is very sad.

There is also a warning here for many in BC churches today. It is a great thing to conform our practices with those of the Orthodox church, but at the same time it must always be done with plenty of catechesis and pastoral consideration. Not being in a jurisdiction going through this process, I in no way am commenting on any jurisdiction.

Justin

Hi Justin,

No problem at all....


Hi Alex,

I can never tell if you are serious about who you know and what you do....are you really a big wig, or do you simply act like one?

I wish I would think a little more before I type.... After posting my "cute" post yesterday, I looked Alex up a little more (other places on the internet), and realized that he IS a big wig....a much bigger wig, anyway than little me......

Humble apologies Herr Professor Doctor....

Unity (and humility) In Christ

Dear UIC,

Actually, I act bigger than I am!

I like to think that I'm big when and where it truly counts!

God bless,

Alex

I realize that I am posting very, very, VERY late in the life of this thread, but after reading it, I absolutely must put my two cents in. I was there, and let me tell you, I know for sure that not every teen wanted Slavonic in the Liturgies. The group that I led was pretty adamant that while it's good to have a more traditional churches and such (heck, I someday hope to an iconographer-priest, or is it priest iconographer?) my group did NOT want Slavonic in the Liturgy. Sorry, Katie, but I had to post the other point of view from someone who was also there, and very much in on what went on. I'm of the opinion that Slavonic Liturgies are the equivelant of sticking a pulled grenade in your stomach: it's just good for the Church in America. If needed, I will post reasons on this. But rest assured, it's FIRMLY based in Cyril and Methodius teaching.

God bless you all

nathan,
i guess my group had alot of kids in the parish that had grown up with Old Slavonic in their liturgies. Since my father was a cantor at out old church we had an Old Slavonic liturgy at least one Sunday a month. I think alot of the kids in my group came from a situation like that. I'm very glad that so many young and new people are coming to our church and i know that there are more important traditions to worry about then whether we sing in English or Old Slavonic but i do think it would be a nice thing to keep around.
-Katie

It very well might be, but not on a regular basis, for one or two reasons:

One: Most of the people who are coming into the Byzantine Catholic Church are not of Slavonic origin, but are Roman Catholics looking for something more than Novus Ordo. Not that I don't like Novus Ordo I'm just not thrilled with it. These visitors will be off balance as it is with the Liturgy. Most people tell me that they couldn't take it all in in one visit! The last thing we need is them coming and wondering if we're speaking Martian. Because that's what it would sound like. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to learn more about the language, but it just doesn't help "newbies".

Two: Using the Slavonic language in an English speaking enviroment is about as agaisnt the roots of the Rusyn church as it can get. The reason that I say this is because Cyril and Methodius wanted people to worship in their own language, and not have everyone chant in Greek or Latin, Arabic, ect, but in their own language. Not someone elses. Two more bits in.

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu voskrese!
Nathan,
I'm not asking for whole liturgies anymore. that would be too impossible but is it too much to ask that we sing one communion hymn in Slavonic?maybe we should stop making potica and pirohi too.
-Katie
P.S. if we want to speak more on this subject perhaps we should begin a new thread in this section so that we dont take anything away from the greatness of Uniontown.

Good idea, Katie. Let's not take away from this great thread!