I have been reading an awful lot about this in other ares of the forum and i believe it needs ins own topic.

The only way our church is ever going to be able to blossom is if we take matters into our own hands. If we did things the way they should be done, upon the election of a new patriarch letters should be sent to the pope and all other heads of orthodox churches stating that our new Patriarch is Lubomir (I believe this is the way the Melkites do it). But alas, most of our Bishops and clergy are content with living in the shadow of Rome and therefore hold our church back from becoming what we should be.
The same argument goes for the Glorification of our Saints. Why must wre wait for someone sitting at a desk in Rome to tell us what we can and cannot do. IT IS UP TO US!

We Magnify thee,
O Holy Father Andrej
and we honour your sacred memory,
for you ever pray unto Christ our God for us!


Ilya

Dear Ilya,

Amin!

Amin!

Amin!


I have to say things three times here, as I qualify as a triple Byzanteener.

This is a wonderful little prayer.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

ilya,

One can explore and discuss what the various canonical nicieties and protocals are in the election of hierarchs, rather than follow the church's counsel to veneration whoever your own heart tells you, one can wait for hierarchs to approve public veneration and then enter into a long discussion as to whihc hierarch you should wait for.

But in the end, none of this will have much impact. Conversion of heart, concord and communion, personal action will. "Churchiandity" never saved a single soul.

Axios

My dear young master:

The making of saints does not a church make, many so-called churches make saints.

Rome assumed responsibility for the canonization of saints because of abuses committed by regional authorities.

A saint in a town or village was a sure-fire ticket to riches, fame and fortune.

I hear that the greatest pilgrimage site in Europe, after Lourdes, is the shrine of Saint Anthony at Padua [if I remember correctly 4 million visitors a year].

I have no problem with Rome investigating the lives of God's servants, they do a very good and thorough job and one is not prone to question their canonizations.

On the other hand, I have heard that a Russian Orthodox Church in the United States has canonized Alexis Toth.

Why is it that I feel doubts about this canonization?

Could it be that his personal and spiritual history are very specific to a certain period, church and or region.

Why should I question the canonization of another Orthodox Church? because in all conscience I do.

When one region or local church makes itself a saint, that’s all fine and dandy, he's their saint, but ultimately and in the end he's not mine.

I believe in the universality of Christ's salvitic mission, "In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile" all are equal before God.

If this is true of men, then it is also true of the saints.

I want all the servants of God to belong to me and not just to the Russians, Greeks, Italians, Poles, Chinese, Indians, etc. etc. etc.

Sainthood is not official deification nor a pretty ceremony, it is our recognition of God's providence and one should not make it anything more than that.


Holy Saint John of Kronstadt remember us poor sinners before the throne of our God.

defreitas

I was expecting exactly this response from you Jose. Thank you for balancing the scale.

Holy Right-Believing Prince Daniel, patron and protector of Moscow whose momory we joyfully celebrate this day, pray to God for us sinners!

Ilya Romanovich

Dear Ilya,

While I agree with everyone else here, I would also say that there has been an "imbalance" created by Rome following its centralization of the Canonization process.

The Pope has tried to restore balance by visiting the local Church and beatifying its saints.

But there is no reason why Local Churches could not declare their own saints, as they always have.

Even following the decree of Pope Urban VIII reserving beatifications to Rome, local Italian bishops continued to beatify their own saints.

These have found their way into the Roman calendar as well.

Blessed John Duns Scotus was beatified by a local Italian bishop centuries before the current Pope beatified him.

Add to this the further confusion that even when the Pope DOES beatify or canonize, this does NOT mean that the cult of the candidate is for universal veneration.

The Pope beatified a married couple, but their cult is limited to ROME ALONE.

When St Lous de Montfort was canonized a saint by Pope Pius XII in 1947, it was only recently that the Pope declared his feast a universal one in the universal Church.

There are many local saints that we would probably not want to honour, but who are important to the local Churches.

Bl. Charlemagne, Pontius Pilate and St Lucifer of Cagliari are all colourful and controversial local saints in their respective local Churches.

One is free to invoke them, but their public cult is limited to their dioceses or Churches - probably with good reason.

And, Ilya, I personally met with HRH Prince Michael of Kent on Friday. He is a Russophile, speaks Russian and is quite proud of his family connection to Tsar St Nicholas and the Royal Romanov Family.

Forgive me a sinner,

Alex (also Romanovich)

I just found a crazy hair and pulled it out...forgive my being presumptuous...

But here's what I think you should do:

Just like Ilya says, become more and more independent. Become so independent that in reality you are an autocephalous church in communion with Rome. Then you can show all of Orthodoxy that it is possible to be in communion with Rome on acceptable terms. And THEN...

Once you've established yourselves in this way, you can go on to bring about an ecumenical crisis of just the right sort: You sit down with the Orthodox, work out all the necessary details and re-establish communion with them. Then let Rome and the rest of them figure out what to do. Meanwhile, I can come to your church with my RC friends and we can finally have communion together.

Just being silly.

Except for the part about wanting to take communion with my friends.

DL

Dear David,

Actually, you're not too far off . . .

Fr. Prof. Bilaniuk of St Michael's University said as much in an article about declaring a Ukrainian "Catholicosate" in Kyiv.

He suggested all the Ukrainian churches, including the Greek Catholic reunite under this Orthodox Catholicos.

And then he could have relations with Rome and other Patriarchs and Churches as he likes.

He suggested he should have relations with all of them, as an equal.

So you're not far off . . .

Forgive me a sinner,

Alex

Boy, if that happened, I'd make a pilgrimage to Kyiv with a few of my closest Catholic Brethren just so we could, once in our lives, recieve our Lord together.

Forgive me a sinner,

David

Dear David,

Actually, you can go to Kyiv and visit the great shrines there any time!

You can attend an Eastern CAtholic Liturgy there, and there are plans on constructing an Eastern Catholic Cathedral.

The Kyivan Caves Lavra is the largest urban Choir of Saints anywhere with more than 150 Saints in the underground caverns.

There are also 61 Skulls of unknown Saints, together with Relics of others.

Several dozen other Saints whose relics repose elsewhere were tonsured there as monks.

Among the early missionaries to Kyiv were, of course, Celtic Missionaries from Iona and Wales, St David's Team .

Forgive me a sinner,

Alex

The idea of a Catholicos for our church is bogus.
If I am not mistaken, he had some idea that it was the Catholicosate of Tmutorokan (or Tmutarakan) whose title the Church of Kyiv should take. This is all very nice, but people don't even recognize the title "Patriarch", so why go for something so "out there" that everyone knows it's crazy?

I agree with Ilya's first post on this topic, but how can we expect other people to take our church seriously when we don't take it seriously ourselves. If we did, we would all follow the new translations, we would not question our hierarchy, and we would probably have Metropolitan John of Warsaw and Przeshezczhfrdmyshel as our Patriarch. Thank God we are in the bad situation that we are in. We don't listen to our hierarchy on certain matters we decide.

And don't say that when we get independence from Rome on certain matters it will all be better! The same people whose laws and instructions we ignore or disrespect now will be the same ones in control, and then we will be in the same or worse position. We need a new generation of smart bishops (which, in my opinion has already began to appear -- starting after the Danylak affair) to make this move to independence Ilya speaks of possible.


Pray, and it will happen. Pray harder, and it may happen sooner.

Daniil

Dear Daniil,

Fr. Bilaniuk was simply raising an issue and discussed it in a public forum, comparing the possible advantages of a Catholicosate over a Patriarchate.

It was for this article of his that got him into trouble with the Church authorities at the time. At least he had the courage to raise this issue in what he thought was a democratic forum, and it wasn't.

And who is "everybody?" The problem with using terms like that is that when we say "everybody" we are appealing to a nonentity. We haven't asked for "everybody's" opinion on the matter and so we don't know.

When you get to be like Fr. Bilaniuk, and I have every confidence that you will, one day, then you can call his ideas by whatever name you choose.

In the meantime, please be a little less dogmatic about what are your own personal views that most Ukrainians may or may not be in agreement with.

God bless,

Alex

On a lighter note, how exactly does one pronounce Przeshezczhfrdmyshel?!

:p

By writing "crazy", I meant "not a good idea". Pardon any confusion created by that comment.

Fr. Bilaniuk was a good man. He was ordained with my father. I don't want to disrespect him, because he was a pioneer for our Church. However, I must say that we have come a long way since his time, and we now have other theologians and leaders to look for as role models.

The name of the city is not actually spelled that way. In Polish it is pronounced "Pshemyshl" and in Ukrainian, "Peremyshel". As to its spelling in Polish,...you've got me.

Daniil

Dear Daniil,

I agree, but Fr. Bilaniuk was willing to take it on the chin.

How many of our new guys can lay claim to that kind of heroism?

And why do we need (just wondering) a patriarch from Peremysl?

God bless you, little fellow! We expect, and will get, great things from you!

Alex

We don't need a Patriarch from Peremysl. if we had one, it would be bad news. I was trying to make the point that if we did not have Rome "assisting" us in our decisions, we probably would have Metropolitan John as Patriarch. The vote at the Synod was a close one in favour of Patriarch Lubomyr. It probably only ended up in his favour because Rome backed him as the candidate. Thank God.

Come to Vespers at Saint Elias some time.

Daniil

Dear Daniil,

To be able to worship with you, O Light-Bearer, I will make the effort!

After Florida . . .

There's an OCA parish down there I will be visiting.

The parish priest is a convert from Anglicanism and has offered to receive me into Orthodoxy when I am ready.

Not yet, I guess

Alex

What are you waiting for?

Dear In Communion with the 3rd Rome,

I'm in communion with the First Rome. Rome is Rome, but I'm going with Number One.

You are a retired Russian government worker? Are you a convert then?

Alex

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

get back on topic

Getting back on topic...

I think Ilya's ideas were good. For our church to blossom, we need good leadership. For good leadership, we need the Church to respect our leaders to give them confidence. To respect our leaders, we need unity. To have unity, we need unity in litrugical practices. To have unity in liturgical practices, we need to...just copy the Russian Orthodox Church's liturgical books and implement them Church-wide. Therefore, for our Church to blossom we need to use the Recensio Volgata.

If you thought I had something eloquent to say, you were wrong.

Daniil

Daniil,
Maybe we could take the best from all and then put them into use. Also we need a strong generation and I know you have a lot up at St. Elias but as far as the people I have met, we are a very small fraction. In time though....
-uc

Dear Daniil, Ilya and UC,

Russian Orthodox texts?

We have them already via the Russified Ukrainian Catholic clergy who influenced their script and that is now being published in Rome.

Ukrainian linguistic scholars and Met. Ilarion Ohienko pointed this out some time ago.

I think we need to go to the time of St Peter Mohyla, St Dmitri Rostovski and others to get a more rounded picture of Kyivan Church liturgy.

Also, I think our people will reject what they see as further Russification of our Church in the name of Eastern church unity.

As for our Third Roman friend, I simply defended my Eastern Catholic position.

When under attack, one must often quickly fight back, irrespective of the topical position one currently occupies.

Alex

Alex, being the new Ukrainian Catholic that I am and not that familiar with all the ends and outs of the Liturgy yet...I may not be the best one to comment on the "Russification" of the Liturgy, BUT, as they say fools rush in where angels fear to tread. I think you have a very good point. If we are truly going to return to our family roots as Vatican II and the Pope have both urged us to do, then I don't think we should be basing these changes on current Russian usage. I agree with you that we should study our heritage as you suggested, returning to those roots from which sprang our Church as well as where the Russians received their liturgical heritage. Again, as I mentioned in postings on another thread, I don't think a wholesale return to Orthodoxy or revamping out Litugy and traditions into a replica of present day Russian (or any other form of) Orthodoxy will bring us into union with our Othodox brothers and sisters...they have to want to be one with us as much as we do with them first. No matter what we do will be suspect. In my opinion we should do all we can to return to our ecclesiastical/liturgical roots, then trust in God to lead us where HE wants us to be.

Don

By the way, my previous post was serious until the point I mentioned the Russian Liturgical texts. At the point it became a joke. I didn't expect people to take it seriously. I would agree with Alex that we should try to get back to things the way they were around the time of Peter Mohyla. Only when there is not enough information do we fill in the gaps with present Russian usage...like in Jurasic Park where they used frog DNA to fill in the missing Dinosaur parts of the DNA. But then, we all remember what happened in Jurasic Park, don't we.

And by the way, Ilya, this is still on topic.

Daniil

I love nothing more than a good polemic, and so after a bit of an hiatus to return here and see Ilya going at it (heh-hem) hammer and tong has been immensely enjoyable. Needless to say, I agree with just about everything, especially in the current thread on the independence of the Ukrainian Catholic Church.
A real problem, I think, is the old "our worst enemy is ourselves" phenomenon. I refer to it as self-Latinization (for lack of a better term). (An example: I know of a parish where many of the 'old guard' are demanding a Divine Liturgy for next Monday night since it will be the 40th day after a particular parishoner's death. As we all know, D.L. is forbidden on the weekdays of Great Lent. The parish is doing the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified, but they regard this with horror--not least because it is primarily but not exclusively in English. What does the priest do with this vocal, contumacious lot? He tells me he's going to ask the bishop for guidance. I'm taking wagers already that the bishop will tell him to give them whatever they want.)
Speaking of bishops, we do indeed need new leadership, and I'm told the eparch for Toronto and eastern Canada is set to retire. If that is the case, the process for selecting his successor will kick in soon enough. Whom would readers here want to see elected? Apart from our prayers, how might we think of influencing the process to ensure we get the sort of leadership the Church needs to flourish as Ilya passionately describes, and as I myself wish to see it do? (I must say--only semi-facetiously--that it is too bad a married man cannot be elected, for then I'd vote for Ilya's father for sure!)

Well, I would have to say that "our worst enemy is ourselves", because, technically, in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Divine Liturgy is permitted during Lent on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We did this to ourselves at the infamous Lviv Sobors (or Synods?) in the 1890s.
Even the present Patriarch follows this disgraceful "law". I had the "pleasure" of witnessing theses liturgies.

Daniil

Our church SHOULD NOT be independant until we have intelligent bishops capable of restoring our church as a whole to it's orthodox heritage. Only then should we be able to think for ourselves, but I don't think the desk bishops in Rome are doing any better at this (probably worse)
Why don't we have any intelligent Bishops?
And whats with the terrible english translations they come out with. No sence of poetic language and no love for the words they say. John Chrysostom is rolling over in his reliquary.

I will probably regret this.

Grant that I may see my own sins Lord, and not to judge my brother...

ilya

Ilya,
Do you think Patriarch Lubko can bring us back to being more orthodox? I read in an article-interview, that in Ukraine some of the people critize him for even being seend with the Orthodox. They say how can you betray us, dont you know what the Orthodox did to us!?! I think is the diaspora it will be a whole lot easier with places like the Spetytsky Institute and of course St. Elias. With Studite bishops,
Lubomyr and Hlib, we are on the right track. Ilya, do you know of any Ukrainian bishops that are really Eastern, besides the 2 mentioned above? Thanks.
-ukrainiancatholic

I would not dare say a bad thing about our Patriarch (or whatever you want to call him) but unfortunately he lacks the initiative to move forward. We need someone with a proper vision and an iron fist.
(i guess i should be careful of what i ask for)
Anyway, I think he is basically a yes man, it could be worse.

My favourite three bishops are
1. Vladika Isidore Borecki, our eparchy would not be as Orthodox as it is without him. He is truly the ideal father figure and a saintly person (with good liturgical taste).
2. Vladika Julian Voronovski of Drohobych-Sambor, who presided over the consecration of our church. Another very good orthodox man.
3. Vladika Mikail Koltun, who visited our parish a few years ago. He is a little eccentric but that is not always a bad thing.

Also, Vladika Vasil Medvid of Kiev I have heard is a very good bishop. He also has good liturgical taste.

We need more bishops like these.

Ilya

[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: ilya goes to church ]

Ilya,
I thought the Toronto bishop was Cornelius Pashiny..... I could be wrong.
-uc

God! This has been a most hysterical post!

Danil- I got what you said and the spelling of Premyshelshylchyshlyn had me laughing heartily. The first good laugh in a while.

Patriarch Lybomyr is not an iron fisted man.
I've gone the rounds on this with your Father, Ilya, in Ukraine. He works under behind the scenes and under the radar. And that is what our church is doing. An iron fist might produce an iron fist even bigger from Rome. I remember reading a book by Paul Hlinka (sp) which pointed out that Metropolitan Sembratovich was deposed by Rome for portesting the Roman influence in the Synod of Lviv (mentioned ealrier). Perhaps Husar knows what really goes on in Rome!

He might even be the next Pope if certain Catholic journalists get their way!

It starts from the leadership and trickles down. BUT I think that returning to our traditions "no matter what the cost" might see us lose more of our faithful than we have already lost in the last 100 years. The average Greek Catholic parish in America is a far cry from the hotbed of academic shcolarship on this forum.
Don't get me wrong. I am all for it. REutrn to our traditions yes, but we have to undergo a MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE re-cathechisation of our people. That is the first thing our bishops need to do. Teach TEACH and TEACH.

WE now have LIGHT FOR LIFE from God With Us publications. Get it. Read it! and have your parish order 50 copies of the series for Catechism classes. When our people know what treasures they have in their own faith, they will be less preoccupied with "fitting in" to mainstream society and by that they become an alternative society, and anything with the label "alternative" sells.

Rambling,
Ality

Dear Friends,

I don't think we need iron fists. But Lubomyr seems to be a very well traveled leader. He has been moving around Europe and America quite a lot.

You know, he studied here in Washington at Catholic University and was ordained in Connecticut and was a pastor in upstate New York, before entering the monastery in Rome.

He knows the Vatican, he knows people. Did anyone else notice, on Sept. 16, 2001 when Cardinal Egan held a memorial mass at St. Patick's Cathedral for the WTC victims, there was one other Cardinal in attendance? Metropolitan Lubomyr and another Eastern Bishop, I believe Bishop Basil of Stamford, were there.

Lubomyr is getting around. I'm sure he will do what he can to keep our Church moving where God wants it to go.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

John-

I hope you did'nt infer that I was being critical of Patriarch Lybomyr. I was trying to express that he works quietly without drawing much public attention to issues and solves them privately.

He was directly responsible for handling the scandal in Poland a few years back when they wanted all Greek Catholic married clergy to leave the country. He could have raised a huge stink over it and confronted Rome openly but he did not. I approve of what he is doing and how the Ukrainian Catholic Church is manuevering right now. The only thing that conerns me is internal-demoninational competition in Ukraine between Latins and Greeks but that is another post.

Again, I hope you di'nt take my post wrong. Looking back at it, I could have been a little more clear. I seldom proof read my posts. Maybe I should start doing so. :rolleyes:

Sinner,
ALity

Because Rome has chosen them.