We don't need a Patriarch from Peremysl. if we had one, it would be bad news. I was trying to make the point that if we did not have Rome "assisting" us in our decisions, we probably would have Metropolitan John as Patriarch. The vote at the Synod was a close one in favour of Patriarch Lubomyr. It probably only ended up in his favour because Rome backed him as the candidate. Thank God.

Come to Vespers at Saint Elias some time.

Daniil

Dear Daniil,

To be able to worship with you, O Light-Bearer, I will make the effort!

After Florida . . .

There's an OCA parish down there I will be visiting.

The parish priest is a convert from Anglicanism and has offered to receive me into Orthodoxy when I am ready.

Not yet, I guess

Alex

What are you waiting for?

Dear In Communion with the 3rd Rome,

I'm in communion with the First Rome. Rome is Rome, but I'm going with Number One.

You are a retired Russian government worker? Are you a convert then?

Alex

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

get back on topic

Getting back on topic...

I think Ilya's ideas were good. For our church to blossom, we need good leadership. For good leadership, we need the Church to respect our leaders to give them confidence. To respect our leaders, we need unity. To have unity, we need unity in litrugical practices. To have unity in liturgical practices, we need to...just copy the Russian Orthodox Church's liturgical books and implement them Church-wide. Therefore, for our Church to blossom we need to use the Recensio Volgata.

If you thought I had something eloquent to say, you were wrong.

Daniil

Daniil,
Maybe we could take the best from all and then put them into use. Also we need a strong generation and I know you have a lot up at St. Elias but as far as the people I have met, we are a very small fraction. In time though....
-uc

Dear Daniil, Ilya and UC,

Russian Orthodox texts?

We have them already via the Russified Ukrainian Catholic clergy who influenced their script and that is now being published in Rome.

Ukrainian linguistic scholars and Met. Ilarion Ohienko pointed this out some time ago.

I think we need to go to the time of St Peter Mohyla, St Dmitri Rostovski and others to get a more rounded picture of Kyivan Church liturgy.

Also, I think our people will reject what they see as further Russification of our Church in the name of Eastern church unity.

As for our Third Roman friend, I simply defended my Eastern Catholic position.

When under attack, one must often quickly fight back, irrespective of the topical position one currently occupies.

Alex

Alex, being the new Ukrainian Catholic that I am and not that familiar with all the ends and outs of the Liturgy yet...I may not be the best one to comment on the "Russification" of the Liturgy, BUT, as they say fools rush in where angels fear to tread. I think you have a very good point. If we are truly going to return to our family roots as Vatican II and the Pope have both urged us to do, then I don't think we should be basing these changes on current Russian usage. I agree with you that we should study our heritage as you suggested, returning to those roots from which sprang our Church as well as where the Russians received their liturgical heritage. Again, as I mentioned in postings on another thread, I don't think a wholesale return to Orthodoxy or revamping out Litugy and traditions into a replica of present day Russian (or any other form of) Orthodoxy will bring us into union with our Othodox brothers and sisters...they have to want to be one with us as much as we do with them first. No matter what we do will be suspect. In my opinion we should do all we can to return to our ecclesiastical/liturgical roots, then trust in God to lead us where HE wants us to be.

Don

By the way, my previous post was serious until the point I mentioned the Russian Liturgical texts. At the point it became a joke. I didn't expect people to take it seriously. I would agree with Alex that we should try to get back to things the way they were around the time of Peter Mohyla. Only when there is not enough information do we fill in the gaps with present Russian usage...like in Jurasic Park where they used frog DNA to fill in the missing Dinosaur parts of the DNA. But then, we all remember what happened in Jurasic Park, don't we.

And by the way, Ilya, this is still on topic.

Daniil

I love nothing more than a good polemic, and so after a bit of an hiatus to return here and see Ilya going at it (heh-hem) hammer and tong has been immensely enjoyable. Needless to say, I agree with just about everything, especially in the current thread on the independence of the Ukrainian Catholic Church.
A real problem, I think, is the old "our worst enemy is ourselves" phenomenon. I refer to it as self-Latinization (for lack of a better term). (An example: I know of a parish where many of the 'old guard' are demanding a Divine Liturgy for next Monday night since it will be the 40th day after a particular parishoner's death. As we all know, D.L. is forbidden on the weekdays of Great Lent. The parish is doing the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified, but they regard this with horror--not least because it is primarily but not exclusively in English. What does the priest do with this vocal, contumacious lot? He tells me he's going to ask the bishop for guidance. I'm taking wagers already that the bishop will tell him to give them whatever they want.)
Speaking of bishops, we do indeed need new leadership, and I'm told the eparch for Toronto and eastern Canada is set to retire. If that is the case, the process for selecting his successor will kick in soon enough. Whom would readers here want to see elected? Apart from our prayers, how might we think of influencing the process to ensure we get the sort of leadership the Church needs to flourish as Ilya passionately describes, and as I myself wish to see it do? (I must say--only semi-facetiously--that it is too bad a married man cannot be elected, for then I'd vote for Ilya's father for sure!)

Well, I would have to say that "our worst enemy is ourselves", because, technically, in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Divine Liturgy is permitted during Lent on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We did this to ourselves at the infamous Lviv Sobors (or Synods?) in the 1890s.
Even the present Patriarch follows this disgraceful "law". I had the "pleasure" of witnessing theses liturgies.

Daniil

Our church SHOULD NOT be independant until we have intelligent bishops capable of restoring our church as a whole to it's orthodox heritage. Only then should we be able to think for ourselves, but I don't think the desk bishops in Rome are doing any better at this (probably worse)
Why don't we have any intelligent Bishops?
And whats with the terrible english translations they come out with. No sence of poetic language and no love for the words they say. John Chrysostom is rolling over in his reliquary.

I will probably regret this.

Grant that I may see my own sins Lord, and not to judge my brother...

ilya

Ilya,
Do you think Patriarch Lubko can bring us back to being more orthodox? I read in an article-interview, that in Ukraine some of the people critize him for even being seend with the Orthodox. They say how can you betray us, dont you know what the Orthodox did to us!?! I think is the diaspora it will be a whole lot easier with places like the Spetytsky Institute and of course St. Elias. With Studite bishops,
Lubomyr and Hlib, we are on the right track. Ilya, do you know of any Ukrainian bishops that are really Eastern, besides the 2 mentioned above? Thanks.
-ukrainiancatholic

I would not dare say a bad thing about our Patriarch (or whatever you want to call him) but unfortunately he lacks the initiative to move forward. We need someone with a proper vision and an iron fist.
(i guess i should be careful of what i ask for)
Anyway, I think he is basically a yes man, it could be worse.

My favourite three bishops are
1. Vladika Isidore Borecki, our eparchy would not be as Orthodox as it is without him. He is truly the ideal father figure and a saintly person (with good liturgical taste).
2. Vladika Julian Voronovski of Drohobych-Sambor, who presided over the consecration of our church. Another very good orthodox man.
3. Vladika Mikail Koltun, who visited our parish a few years ago. He is a little eccentric but that is not always a bad thing.

Also, Vladika Vasil Medvid of Kiev I have heard is a very good bishop. He also has good liturgical taste.

We need more bishops like these.

Ilya

[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: ilya goes to church ]