Hello. I've got a question that was assigned to me: What is the the Eastern Church's stance on capital punishment. Thanks!


-Mike

Nothing unique. Eastern and Western Catholics, I presume, are on the same page on this. I can't see what in the Catholic Church's teaching is particular to only one part.

As for the Orthodox, it is more complicated. Would it be acceptable at least to narrow the question to Orthodox in the USA?

Axios

Slacker520,
Are you Mike Williams or Newman?

Orthodox in the U.S., please.

I am not "Newman" so yea, I'm Mike W.

Check the most recent edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Then post it on this forum. If you need further help, I will assist you.

Axios

You say you "presume" both are on the same page. Does that mean you are not entirely sure of the Eastern position?

Protodeacon

I have looked at the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Do you mean the east & west are on the same page on this? What is the postion of the Orthodox church?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church presents the current teaching of the Eastern Catholic Churches on the death penalty. Presuming that you have read the pertinent sections you will realize that the death penalty would only be used in those situations where the civil community could not protect its members from grave and mortal harm. The Catechism makes it clear that this is very unlikely to happen given the penal systems available.

To the best of my knowledge the Orthodox Churches do not have an official teaching on the death penalty. The history of the Orthodox Churches on this matter varies according to time and place. If you are serious about what the Orthodox Churches teach on this matter, you should contact each one and ask if they have an official stance on the death penalty. I suspect you will get a variety of different answers depending on the individual who answers.

In Christ,

David Kennedy, Protodeacon

Dear Protodeacon David,

I often wondered how one actually distinguishes what is Eastern Catholic teaching in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC)? If it presents the Eastern Catholic teaching on capital punishment then does the CCC also present Eastern Catholic teachings on everything else? If not, how do you discern when it is and when it is not giving an Eastern Catholic teaching? Just wondering.

In the area of catechesis, I read in a Ukrainian Catholic directive that the first order of business is teaching the doctrine of Theosis. How does the CCC go about accomplishing this? I looked up "Theosis" in the CCC's Index and it wasn't there. I then looked it up on the Internet search engine and no matches were found. I did the same for "Deification" and no results either.

I'm not doubting that our hierarchs are not in sync with the rest of the Catholic Communion on this issue, but if the CCC cannot address the first Eastern doctrine mandated by the Ukrainian directives, then how can one feel confident that the CCC represents the Eastern Christian tradition in everything else? What means do you personally use to discern? This is interesting.

Please help,
Cantor Joe Thur

[ 03-02-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear Cantor and Mentor Joe,

You raise a most interesting point!

My own view is that the CCC is, in fact, a Latin document that contains the spirituality of the Latin West in almost every respect.

It does mention the Jesus Prayer and some other aspects of Eastern theology, but it is largely a western document, as was the Vatican II document on the Eastern Churches.

However, I think that the area of capital punishment is a moral one that can be discussed without reference to spirituality.

We accept the moral teachings of the Catholic Church without equivocation on absolute principles etc.

Even the Orthodox often made use of "Blessed" Thomas Aquinas (as they referred to him) for moral theology, not having a systemic theologian of their own in this department.

John Meyendorff (+memory eternal) even quotes a prayer of one Orthodox devotee of St Thomas Aquinas (patron of Catholic schools as you know) and says that, had Thomas not been born in the West, he would never have defended the Filioque!

Alex

Alex,
I must respectfully say, that your view is not the view of the Catholic Church.

As the Holy Father stated in the Apostolic Constitution / Fidei Depositum (On the publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Here is a quote from it (emphasis added);


I think this shows the intent, that this is the Catechism of the (Universal) Catholic Church and that is should be used as a baseline for the various particular Churches own Catechisms.

Respectfully,
David

Dear David,

I don't deny the truth of what you say.

I only say that, when it comes to spirituality, it is a Latin document. That doesn't mean that it wasn't written for all Catholics of whatever Rite or Church.

If my Church created its own document for universal teaching, it too would reflect its Particular spirituality.

It is impossible for any Particular Church, including the Particular Latin Church, not to reflect in its teaching and thinking the substance of what its spirituality is all about.

The same is true of Vatican II's document on the Eastern Churches, as Eastern Catholic and Orthodox commentators have said.

Sorry if I've given offense.

Alex

Alex,
No offense given. Actually I must beg forgivness, I didn't really understand what you were saying.

I agree with you that the CCC, while written for the Universial Catholic Church, is written from a Latin perspective as to the spirituality used.


Your brother in Christ,
David

David,

Maybe it needs to be explained what is meant by the CCC being "a point of reference" in the creation of other catechisms as our bishops receive directives to do so?

I've heard a number of Byzantine Catholics quote the CCC, but it stops there like most "points of reference." The catechisms of our own particular churches and traditions are rarely, if ever, quoted.

Thank you,
Joe

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear David,

No offence taken, Big Guy, no need to apologise!

You raised an excellent point, one that needed to be made, after all.

Our Scriptural Scholar, Joe Thur, makes a great point as well (have you visited his scriptural thread yet? I wish I knew as much about the Bible as I do about church politics!).

One way of addressing this issue is by making our own, as much as possible, the great Eastern Cathechisms, such as that of John Damascus and of Peter Mohyla and incorporating these perspectives into an Eastern approach to modern-day issues, such as capital punishment.

Orthodox theologians who have written on these subjects can be consulted as well, as they reflect the same perspectives that we have (and I know that not all of them are like our strident friend, OrthodoxyorDeath ).

But Joe Thur makes a solid point that is really unassailable.

Alex

Joe,
I don't really know of any "catechisms of our own particular churches and traditions".

If you are speaking of the Light for Life series, its not really a catechism, can't really quote from it all that well, no index to carry along with it, no references back to the CCC.

All in all I would have to say that if the Light for Life series is to be the catechism of the Eastern Catholic Churches, it has fallen short, IMHO.


David

In fact, it was my understanding that the universal Catholic Catechism was meant to serve as a resource for local and particular Churches to prepare their own catechisms, and to serve as a help to their own teaching in particular contexts. A great challenge to us all!

Elias

But, may I refer all to Mike's original question? Does the tradition of the Eastern Churches have anything to offer the debate in America about Capital Punishment?

Elias

I'm not familiar with any statement from our bishops on capital punishment or any statements from our tradition on social issues for that matter. It would be nice to know if they do exist. Please advise.

Joe

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: Monk Elias ]

Dear Cantor Joe,

Well, the only "social issue" one of our previous bishops was interested in was the annual eparchial fund-raising banquet .

I think the Venerable Father Elias was speaking more about the way the Eastern Patristic tradition would view capital punishment based on the canons of the Church.

And we don't need a bishop to interpret that for us.

I would go with St Basil the Great's thought on this one.

He was so much against the taking of life that he installed a canon that said if war broke out with a country in which a Christian lived, the Christian should be banned from Holy Communion for three years, since if he lived as a true Christian should, the war would not have broken out.

This is, of course, a radical if somewhat naive stance when viewed from today's prism of reality.

But at least we have an ideal set of values from which to work from.

Also, there is St Nicholas and his miracle of saving three men condemned to die . . .

Again, we don't need bishops to tell us about this.

This reminds me of the husband who was sitting in his easy chair reading something with a hand-crafted paper mitre on his head.

His wife was heard to say, "Harry, why don't you just quit that religious Book-of-the-Month club!"

(Is that as good as my "super-calloused" line? )

Alex

Alex,

Well, the CCC was not written by the Fathers from the Patristic era, and the annual eparchial fund drive does not count as Patrology either.

But I was interested in recent documents from our own bishops on social issues affecting us today. Where can I find them? What are these canons you speak of? I like to know if St. Basil et al. have been brought out to help us answer today's social issues and questions from an Eastern Christian perspective. This is a fascinating topic for it will show me how our church teachers can help us in this area. The issue of capital punishment comes up a lot in my discussions with Byzantine Catholics and other Christians.

I liked the super-callous joke better.


Cantor Joe

Dear Cantor and Mentor Joe,

Ummh . . . the St Basil I was referring to is no longer with us . . . And Patrology wasn't the main topic at the banquet either!

It sounds, though, as if you've already drawn your own conclusions in asking the questions you've asked.

St Basil, if he were here, might ask you, Joe, to say what you really want to say, but haven't yet.

Am I right?

Alex

Alex,

Protodeacon David mentions the CCC as the "current" statement on capital punishment for the Eastern Catholic Churches. Since there was debate on the CCC as being fully representative for Eastern Catholicism, I was searching for statements on capital punishment by our current bishops.

I can't draw any conclusions or say anything, Alex, if I don't know where to look for current statements nor have any understanding what these statements might say. Is the annual stewardship drive the only social issue mentioned? I hope this isn't the case. I'm only interested in "current" teachings on capital punishment and/or other social issues from the Eastern Catholic Church. Protodeacon David hasn't responded to any of my earlier questions on this issue. Maybe you can help?


Joe

Dear Joe,

Only insofar as you know better than I that if there aren't any such statements around then there aren't.

One could take that two ways, I suppose. One could say, as I think you are implying, that our bishops are really irrelevant on such matters and expect us to follow everything the Latin Bishops do and say on social issues and are therefore slack in their responsibility as Byzantine Catholic leaders.

Or one could also say, as I like to think, that the outline of Catholic teaching on social and other issues as given in the name of the entire Catholic Church, East and West, is something that we can take and fly with per se, casting it into whatever spiritual prisms we wish.

If the Church teaches that capital punishment is immoral, then we accept that. We can find Patristic and Scriptural backing to defend that.

But what's the big deal, forgive me, about whether a particular Byzantine Bishop or group of same have repeated the same teaching?

Again, if I've misrepresented what you are intending to say, but haven't yet, forgive me.

Otherwise, I still don't know where you're going with this.

Alex

Alex,

OK. Just wondering.

More than a few times I've seen my eparch's name/signature in the list of bishops who have issued a document on various "social issues" as "The Catholic Bishops of New Jersey," I believe.

The fact that my Byzantine Catholic eparch has signed his name to this document indicates to me that its contents constitute a statement of Byzantine Catholic teaching in the matter.

Shouldn't it?

Dear RichC,

Actually, I just came across something that our Bishop signed, as you said, and it would indeed appear that he is subscribing to a view and giving it his own seal of approval.

I didn't see where Joe Thur was going with his questions before, but now I think I do, and Joe was absolutely correct in raising the matters he did.

From my angle, there is a sense in which my Church seems to be aloof from the very pressing social issues of today, expecting RC teaching to do its work for it.

We tend to be somewhat insular and relate really only to what is going on in Ukraine, while pretending to ignore what is going on all around us here in North America.

And that can't be good!

We promote the Chornobyl disaster when it is AIDS that is by far the more dangerous problem for Eastern Europe and elsewhere. We just refuse to talk about it, thinking it will go away by itself, or else consider this to be something the "English" have to worry about, never we.

This is a real eye-opener.

And, yes, Joe is right, if I understand him correctly, that we cannot rely on what are really outdated teachings to formulate our response to current issues as contemporary Christians.

Can we be content to simply follow the teachings and affirmations of the Latin Church in this regard?

Is there nothing that our Particular Churches can say or do in witness to the Gospel of Christ on social issues?

Alex

I know the Catholic Bishops in the United States have issued a number of statements and refelctions on various social concerns. I cannot cite chapter and verse as to the exact participation in the conference of bishops our eastern bishops contributed on this issue or any other social concern.

But our bishops are members of the the national conference. It would seem right that when the Catholic Church speaks to a social concern, its statement or teaching be developed by the catholic bishops of that society. In this case, the United States.

Given all of that, I don't understand why one would make any other assumption than the application of universal teaching to American society is as proclaimed by the American bishops conference. This seems to employ they very counciliar practice our tradition had highlighted during the recent Council.

K.

Dear Kurt,

I knew you were going to respond, I just knew it!

Do you feel that the Eastern Church has something "Particular" to say about social issues from a Byzantine theological framework that could add anything to such statements?

Alex

Alex,

We may well. Were I a scholar, I might be able to cite some examples. I hope and pray our American bishops, in the reflection and discussion within the national episcopal conference, do offer any particular insights from a Byzantine theological framework.

I hope and pray they also offer any insights they have from the social experience and commmunity life of our people. And I hope they offer any personal insights, prayerful reflections, experiences, or scholarly understandings they have.

Isn't this the way we would expect our bishops to consider social matters?

K.

Dear Kurt,

During the time of the great Ethiopian famine when over a million Ethiopians starved to death, our Church put together a collection for the relief agencies working in Africa.

Our Bishop, Vladyka Kir Isidor Borecky, during his sermon said that "We are sending our offering to our starving Ethiopian brothers and sisters. Our Ukrainian people suffered through the Holodomor under Stalin in the thirties and our people know what it is like to be hungry."

It may not have been Byzantine, but it spoke to all our hearts!

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I believe that the official stance in the Orthodox Church is anti-death penalty as may be seen in the writings of the Eastern Church fathers and practice in general of Orthodox Countries.

For example, Byzantine Imperial practice in most reigns had no death penalty or used it very sparingly---Instead they would blind, remove offending limbs, etc---officially this was so the criminal would not die without the full life and opportunity to repent of their sin and enter the Kingdom of Heaven.


Even in more modern times, in Tsarist Russia, the number condemned to death in the reign of Tsar Nicholas IIs' entire reign did not even equal the number executed in one month under the Bolsheviks. Indeed in "Memories of the Russian Court" this is addressed and it was noted that Orthodox Russia's capital sentences were less than 5% of those of England or France or Austria-Hungary---all very western, modern societies. I would hate to try and compare the United States at the time or Texas of Today.

Personal intervention by Orthodox nobility can be exemplified by the Saint Elizabeth Romanov, New Martyr Grand Duchess who after her husband was literally blown to pieces by an Anarchist's bomb would go to the prison to provide his murderer with Christian pamphlets and scripture hoping that he would repent and enter the arms of the Church. She tried to have her husband's murderer's sentence commuted to a non-death penalty but the murderer refused her actions on his behalf.

In summary, Orthodoxy as a Church has consistently taught against capital punishment and as a result has influenced Orthodox Governments to limit Official Death Penalty issues. As in the Roman catholic Church, there are Orthodox members who do advocate for the Death Penalty, but this is not the stand of the Orthodox Church.


Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 03-16-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]